skalenfehl

There was some opposition here in Brigham City, but after it was built and functioning, everybody went back to their daily routines of complaining about something else.

You said it much better than I could have. I absolutely agree that Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about. He SAW both Father AND Son. Joseph KNEW them and their attributes. I also recall that Joseph said that what the Lord reveals to Joseph, he will also reveal to the least saint as fast as he is able to bear it. Something to that effect. I don't have time to look for it. I defer to Joseph Smith's inclusion of the LoF in the original D&C. We don't do things by common consent anymore (that I am aware of). We have committees decide for us now and probably with the best of intentions, but it is obvious that they don't have a monopoly on truth. I disagree with the committee that decided to remove the LoF as scripture from the D&C. They comprised a chunk of the "doctrine" part of the book. Far too many saints probably have not truly read it--feasted upon it--and it's likely that many today even know it exists. I've made a study of the Lectures over the course of this year and I realize now that Abinadi absolutely knew what he was talking about. All my life, until recently, his commentary on this principle had eluded me. There's a lot more to Abinadi that we know, at least in this estate.

I did order it. I've had it bookmarked online for some time having studied it often and still do. Very valuable. In the Joseph Smith papers (I'll have to find the reference), we read that Joseph Smith wrote in his journals that he spent days dong the final writing and editing of the LoF to ensure that it was correct doctrine. So it doesn't matter who the bulk of the writing was attributed to and if it was indeed Sidney Rigdon. What matters is that Joseph Smith personally had the final say in its content before declaring it (in the preface) to be doctrine, it also having been accepted as law by common consent from all the quorums of the church from the least to the greatest and also by common consent from the church membership. Then in 1921, it was removed by a committee, if I remember correctly, because they said LoF was not written as doctrine. So either they are correct or Joseph Smith was correct. I'll have to dig up the resources. I don't believe that this committee had access to the Joseph Smith papers or this information, but maybe they did and overlooked it. The fifth lecture on faith declares Father to be a personage of Spirit and the Son a personage of Tabernacle. It goes on to clarify and also to explain the Holy Ghost. I see nothing wrong about what Joseph Smith wrote. Jesus Christ did take on a tabernacle as have we all. Both are as are all of us "spirit", which is only finer matter, which cannot be detected without purer eyes. They are glorified beings now. We are all spirits undertaking a mortal experience. Anyway, this is my understanding, not to be argumentative. This is a good discussion and one worthy of continuing.

Excellent post, Elect. Man, how unfortunate that the LoF were removed from the D&C. I really need to get me a copy of the 1835 edition.

When Jesus Christ appeared to the people at Bountiful, they thought he was an angel. When He finally began teaching them, they had no clue what he was talking about. He perceived they were "weak" and admonished them to pray to the Father concerning His words. Thereafter He began expounding on Isaiah (of all prophets). Obviously, the general membership simply didn't search the scriptures and were not prepared to be taught greater mysteries, although they were taught plenty. Joseph Smith said that a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge. There is a reason why collectively, we as a church are still under condemnation.

The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead and the First Comforter, a Sanctifier, a Sealer unto Salvation. The Spirit of the Lord, of God, etc is different (although the Holy Spirit has been used interchangeably with the Holy Ghost). We get a distinction in Moroni chapter 7. When we begin our journey of faith, the Spirit of the Lord/Spirit of God/His Spirit/My Spirit (as spoken by the Savior to others)/Light of Christ of etc, is discerned as a prompting. Often, we call it our conscience. When we do something wrong, our conscience (or the Spirit of God) causes us to feel guilty and prompts us to repent and continue on our journey of faith ("I think I should return the toy I stole"). As we continue to fine tune ourselves to His Voice, the promptings become more distinct, like suggestions ("Call Brother Doe."). As we continue on our path and as we make our eye single in purpose and our supplications intently, we come to recognize this as Jesus Christ's voice. We can see this manifest in Nephi's journey, which began with a simple prayer to know if his father was telling the truth or if he was loco. The Lord "softened his heart" that he did believe Lehi. As time progressed and Nephi proved diligent and true and faithful, he received further light and knowledge. The promptings and impressions from the Spirit of the Lord turned into real communications: As we mature in our journey, strengthening our relationship with Him and gaining His trust, there comes a time where having been true and faithful parts the veil and that tiny prompting, which turns into a voice that commands, finally becomes a face to face conversation with the Lord and you realize that all along, it was Him speaking to you, drawing near to you as you drew near to Him until you come to the end of your journey, finding rest in this mortal life until you rest with him in heaven. and So the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit can be distinguished from each other as completely separate things. We receive one when we are confirmed members of the church and are baptized with fire and the other is the influence and voice of Him who opens when we knock.

I definitely agree with Traveler that we are in a transition period (events being set in motion). Going back to scripture and setting Isaiah aside, reading the Book of Mormon is a big clue as to what to expect before, during and after their desolating scourge and Zion is established, even if it lasted only a few generations.

We may not know the exact day, but the Lord has given us plenty of signs to follow, and they are all in the scriptures. It will be a great and dreadful day indeed, but there will be many great days along the way for those who watch and pray and not faint. And for those who are not ready, it will be dreadful. I can appreciate what you are saying. But...What would it do for you if you knew the exact date and time?

The real question is why do you think that the Savior's coming is at the beginning of a calendar millennium?

Yes. A lot of Isaish's prophecies are dual in nature, regarding events imminent in his time and events imminent in our time. For example: The history of Judah and Jerusalem demonstrate how literally Isaiah's prophecy has been fulfilled. The punishments have been severe because the Jews were the covenant people. Their history reminds us of what the Lord thinks of covenant breakers. As latter-day saints, today, we must ever be mindful of the punishments that await those who break their covenants: Now read the Isaiah chapter above again!

Don't judge him because he sins differently than you. I have many friends who commit all kinds of sins. I don't usually hang around with them because of the environments in which they gather and have fun. But this doesn't stop me from being their friend, reaching out whenever I can, and getting to know them better. We all have demons. Some of us give in to them much easier than others. Love your friend as Christ loves him. During His mortality, Christ mingled with all kinds of sinners, probably very immoral sinners. The healthy need not a physician, but they that are sick.

What I find interesting in v 31 is that when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem before Lehi escaped, thousands of smiths, princes, artisans, etc were taken captive along with their families, leaving only the poorest of the poor in Jerusalem behind. They were of no value to Babylon and its empire. The Lord has always protected his most humble and poor people. Poor because they are poor in heart. In Zion none exist but those who are equal in all things. There are no rich there. Joseph Smith was a poor businessman because he literally impoverished himself in the process of helping anyone and everyone. This is why Jesus Christ told the rich man to go and sell everything he had, give the money to the poor. Then and only then would he be ready to follow the Master. Thus, in my opinion, As He prepares to bring Zion back, only the pure in heart, which are the poor in heart will be worthy to abide the building up of Zion and His presence. The Lord takes care of His own.

Isaiah is referring to the Philistines. He is saying that they shouldn't rejoice prematurely in the destruction of Assyria. You have to go back a few verses. 29 ¶Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. 31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. 32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. After Assyria (serpent's root) falls, Babylon will rise (cockatrise) and his fruit (i.e. fruit of loins) is Nebuchadnezzar who then also came against the Philistines as we read in v. 31. Understanding Isaiah requires some understanding of the history of Assyria and surrounding nations/conflicts.

I'm on LDSFF - LDS Freedom Forum -

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We are children of Zion, yes, but Zion has not been established. We are not equal in all things. We still have poor among us. People are still worldly as ever, even in and especially in the church. Zion will not be established until New Jerusalem is built and the city of Enoch returns and this will not happen until the desolating scourge and the times of the gentiles is fulfilled (very near).

Thank you, Roseslipper and Thrushcross! Thrushcross, it's good to hear from you again!

Thanks, all! :)

Thanks, Pam!

In my humble and personal opinion, yes. I believe Jesus Christ's words. I do see your point and its merit. However, God is unchanging, and if He wills, who am I to limit Him? 1 Nephi 10:18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him. 19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round. Nephi did not create an endowment ritual for his people. Half of his life was an endowment. The entire first book of Nephi exemplifies the endowment and fulfills D&C 93:1. And Nephi, having been true and faithful did converse with the Lord through the veil. And he did enter into His presence, as did his brother Jacob. 2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him. 3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words. The brother of Jared saw Christ, too. So did other Jaredites such as King Emer. 21 And Emer did execute judgment in righteousness all his days, and he begat many sons and daughters; and he begat Coriantum, and he anointed Coriantum to reign in his stead. 22 And after he had anointed Coriantum to reign in his stead he lived four years, and he saw peace in the land; yea, and he even saw the Son of Righteousness, and did rejoice and glory in his day; and he died in peace. Mormon, Moroni, the list goes on.

On the contrary, I personally do believe that there are people alive today who have received their "second anointing." This isn't part of what I explained above. What I explained stops just short of it.

This isn't practice or pretend. I honor and uphold my covenants. But again, do you know what the very first lines spoken in the endowment session are? Consider, for example that when you are sick and/or afflicted, you ask for a priesthood blessing. There are two steps involved. First you are anointed. Thereafter, a sealing takes place. Are both essential? What would happen if you were anointed only? Why must you be anointed if the power is in the sealing words? Is the anointing merely symbolic? Of what? Is faith required? In whom? Why? The following may not make sense if you don't remember, but I will highlight and emphasize it. Then when you go to the temple again, you can hear what I mean. Regarding those who have inherited the celestial kingdom from D&C 76: 50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just— 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; 53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. 54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. 55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things— 56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; 57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. 58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God This ties in to what Nephi tried teaching in 2 Nephi 32. In Lehi's vision of the tree of life, people fell to their knees at the tree of life after pressing forward along the iron rod. The symbolism is important. Why did they fall to their knees? What did they behold, what does the fruit represent? What is most desirable? Nephi, who received the Second Comforter, gives us hints: 2 Nephi 1:15 15 But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love. 2 Nephi 4:33 33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy. This is to know Christ. But it doesn't happen until- 6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. And our Savior taught us the same, which same steps Nephi took: D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am; 1. forsake all sins 2. come unto me 3. call my name 4. obey my voice 5. keep my commandments 6. See my face Do we have to wait until some future day after we die? Prophets tell us otherwise, whether by example or by declaration: Moroni 7:3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven. What does it mean to enter into His rest? What does he mean from "this time henceforth?" The Lord anxiously wants to give us SO much more than we realize we can have in this mortal life. Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened. Sound familiar? This is a very specific admonition. With love.

Yes and no. In the temple, we are only anointed for such, but it is Christ, Himself, who seals up to eternal life, as He did the Brother of Jared, Nephi, and many others throughout Biblical history, who had received no temple endowment, which is only a symbolic, "preparatory" ritual.

To the OP: Read all of Alma 13! The answer is YES. And then some! Edit: Looks like ElectofGod beat me to it. Cross reference Alma 13 with D&C 76:50-59