hordak

Repost, save on all that typing. I find this whole "war on Christmas" to be ironic. This is the time of year when Christians get up in arms because the walmart greeters say "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" and non Christians are offended by nativity scenes and it is ridicules on both sides. A historical look at Christmas will show the purpose for celebrating it is in December is to compete with the pagan holidays and to many of our own "Christmas traditions" are borrowed from them pagans. Instead of leaving boots full of food out in for Sleipnir, Odins 8 legged horse, in anticipation of gifts and candy ,we leave cookies for Santa, in hopes he will fill our socks. Instead of Yule logs and Yule feast we have Christmas feast. Instead of holly wreaths being used to protect the fairies from the harsh winters we use them just to decorate. Essentially we started to throw Christ birthday party early so we could one up the neighbors and save on supplies and decorations. We took the pagans holiday rituals, kept and adapted what we liked and tossed aside the Gods and ideas they were meant to calibrate. Now people are taking Christmas holiday rituals, keeping and adapting what they like and tossing aside the God and ideas they are meant to celebrate. What goes around... So i guess what i'm trying to say is if you love Christmas, then celebrate it, but understand that everyone doesn't, there are other holidays this time of year and that our "Christmas tradition" don't belong to us. And if you don't celibate Christmas, (though i doubt there are many on the board) understand that many do, they hold it sacred. Whatever people celebrate this time of year lets all try some of that "good will towards men" "What's in a name? A Rose by another name would smell as sweet..." __________________

you forgot yule. I'm offended:mad:

Brigham young emphasis the importance of that. Then again this come from the JOD so it's not really Doctrine;)

Where can one find the official accounts? Accourding to FAIR So it appears we only have second hand accounts. Also David whitmer isn't the only one to mention this method. There are more from Oliver, and Emma's father but since the publications are to old for me to find and their reproduction are on questionable sites i'll leave them be.Now here is where i get confused. Threads starts with the apologist claim that the head in hat translation is well known, then members come on a discount the the head in the hat. They claim David isn't a reliable witness and in 1977 Church historian Richard Lloyd Anderson agreed as it is published in an ensignBut then in 1993 Elder Russell M. Nelson says I does seem credible enough to be called precious and quoted by an Apostle in a official church publication. Then we have FAIR who also claims the church is forward about the seer stone mentioning the hat. it also mention more but i don't have GL direct to read them.In fact apologist Daniel C Peterson uses the hat translation method as more proof of Josephs authentic gift. So It seems we have 2 question. Does the church "hide" the Head in hat translation? And Now "Is the hat translation accurate? If the Apologist are correct and hat method is well known as they assert (I don't agree with them) Then it stands to reason that it is accurate. There would be no reason for the church mention it in "several church publications" If it wasn't. If the church "hides" it, than that would be a good indication it is false. No reason to bring it up regularly if it is inaccurate. So as to the the OP. Do you think it is common knowledge? It seems (don't want to put words in your mouth) that you doubt the hat method, not the stones themselves, but i wonder how you stand on the "hiding of this info" If that makes sense

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

Better then old bag isn't it.

I don't believe history is "meat" for 2 reasons . 1 it isn't doctrine that has been built upon. Believing that Joseph was a prophet, restored the gospel and temple is necessary to accept the ceremony and teachings at the temple. Accepting translation method is not something that has been built upon. The history isn't something kept hidden until members are ready to have the truth revealed at a later date. 2 It is something that could be seen as misrepresented. The seer stone hat translation method is rarely spoke of and a less “odd versions” face to face translation is shown in our images. Something that is definitely meat, like temple ceremonies would never be shown in a “more acceptable version” for lack of a better term. The church wouldn’t want members to get the wrong idea about something so important, so it’s best not to speak of it at all. Although I do suppose one man’s milk could be anothers man’s meat and vice a versa, and do agree the church isn’t responsible to give history lesson. I don’t think other churches do. However I do wish the church was more “forthcoming” in these historical issues. Members (of all faiths) accept plenty of “unconventional ideas” I don’t see why we expect someone to accept a talking burning bush, but fear a glowing stone might be “too odd” Of course by the same token I don’t understand how people can see a talking burning bush as normal, while thinking a glowing stone is odd. Add there are plenty who do.

I don't know A search of church content reveals only 2 hits that mention the "seer stone" and "hat". A couple of ensign articles from 16 and 32 years ago. Meanwhile a search of "translating the book of Mormon" come up with this And the restoration video also shows this. So while I do agree the head in the hat translation isn't that strange, especially considering how the 10 commandments were given. I disagree with the notion that it is regularly taught common knowledge. I was born and raised in the church and would never have learn about it if it wasn't for "anti" Mormon websites.

The standard didn't look at pregnancy rates, it looked at sexual behavior.

Ah. I see this is a school sex ed vs parents sex ed thread (to everyone else) I was thinking of it as an this is birth control vs "i told you so" (as i was disagreeing with post number 5 when this discussion kicked off) In which case i agree it's up to parents to instill the values, and that abstinence should be the goal for the kids. But that teaching kids (age appropriate) about birth control will not lead to sex. And i for one would rather have a 16 year old daughter, who gives into temptation, and has protected sex, then one who knows nothing about it, gives into temptation and has unprotected sex.

I sometimes forget there is more then American English :)

There is no perfect apology for sex. I can't think of any other natural God given urge, that comes on when "least ready", we try to suppress in some while "promoting" in others. On this we can agree. My point is that the "If they don't get taught about safe sex, they wont have sex" is equity absurd as the "they're going to have sex anyway" attitude. And there are things we don't want for our children, but still prepare them for the worst case scenario, Why would we treat this different?

First don't laugh at Lamar. 1st person to dead lift 5x his body weight. He pulled 661 at a body weight of 132lbs. Compare this to 8x Mr Olimpia Ronnie Colman who pulled measly 800lbs at a body weight of 305. He would have to dead 1525lb to be as strong. Second. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Nothing different then you wear to the beach. And at a figure show when the crowd is "lusting" after your body it's because of the hard work you put in and that they want to be like that to, Not the desire to "use" anothers body that is normal associated lust.

Little lifters rule. Lamar Gant is my hero.

I see what your saying but... Teaching kids about birth control is not "giving them permission" anymore then teaching kids the dangers of guns is. Giving them condoms is encouraging them to have sex as much as telling them to buckle up is encouraging them to drive dangerously. And studies show Abstinence only programs don't work. Advocates For Youth - Five Years of Abstinence-Only-Until-Marriage Education: Assessing the Impact

Allowing children to learn from their mistakes is part of the parenting process/ growing up. We all do it, it just varies by what we see as "acceptable consequence" Teenage sex with it's many risk is the equivalent of, running with scissors in the road, with a mask on that reduces vision, in untied shoelaces, while not wearing clean underwear. It's all those things mom warned us about wrapped into one. I don't think teaching kids about birth control is shielding them anymore then pulling my tots back from the street. The consequences are to great to not do everything in my power to minimize the risk. But to each their own.

Condoms in toilets gross. (Just teasing you, but in English toilets are the receptacle themselves, bathrooms are the rooms the toilets are in, regardless of whether or not they actually have a bath. ) Birth control for teens is like firearms. It's best if they don't need to be used, because they aren't in a situation that warrants them, but it's better to have access to and knowledge of them, just in case. However i disagree with the lack of notification, and giving out medications.

No,regardless of the ingredients using medicine for it's intended use is not against the WoW.

Temple president from (insert town) sees temple lights on about to go check and get call form (GA, Apostle, Prophet) who says don't worry the lords doing his work. Missionaries run from Gang members in car only to discover when they get to safety the care is missing (tires, battery, engine, alternator). 3 nephites changing tires for stranded Mormons, We were saved for the last days, and were more valiant

Do you think God is a murderer? I don't know if you right or wrong but you're applying human commandments to God. God makes rules for the children that he himself doesn't follow. Same as every parent.

Do they have foreign language classes? Perhaps you could teach Finnish? Also if you have problems typing, but you speach is good, you could try Dragon Speak. Not sure who makes it but it's a computer program that types what you say.

You should have known what you were getting into when you bought a $400 vacuum cleaner. It's like owning a pick up and being surprised when asked to haul stuff;):)

oh i don't care about that.I think you ingenuity was awesome, making "lemons into lemonade" so to speak. That fact that you had to, that is what i find disturbing.

Awesome and disturbing.

Don't worry we won't:D;)