Finrock

Good afternoon TruthSeekerToo! I hope you had a good weekend. BTW, you sending that good weather worked, cause the last few days have been wonderful. :) If may, I would like to explain a bit my hypothetical scenario. From my discussions so far with you, HeThePrimate, and Snow I came to understand that one thing that you all seem to rely on to understand scripture and to judge it is logic. In order to accomodate this learning style, I wanted to utilize a tool that is used in logic often. That is to make up a hypothetical scenario to illustrate a the logical conclusion of any given line of reasoning. Of course, in order for such a tool to work all participants have to agree to go along with the scenario and to follow the rules of logic. I assumed that you all would be familiar with creating hypothetical scenarios and therefore I didn't give much of an introduction to it. However, from the responses so far, I realize I should have explained it more. I'm sorry for not doing that. In a hypothetical scenario, only the facts that are given to you are relevant to the answer. If you change the facts, then obviously the answers will change. Therefore, it is important that we answer the quesitons based on the information that was given in the scenario. So, given the information in the hypothetical scenario, do you believe that Joe would be morally right or wrong in killing the serial killer? This is the question that needs to be answered. In this case you would either believe that he is morally right or he is morally wrong. No other answer or explaination would satisfy the inquiry. Also, as I mentioned, intellectual honesty is required. That means that we answer the questions honestly, even if the conclusion doesn't support our point-of-view. Otherwise, the exercise is futile. So, with this new explanation, I would invite you to answer the questions again, if you want to take part in the exercise. If you do not, that is OK. I'll go away and we can move on with life. But, if you are curios to explore the logical conclusion of a particular line of reasoning, then let us explore it together and see where it leads. Kind Regards, Finrock

In Minority Report, the predictions weren't perfect! :) I'm sorry, but I don't know your answers to the scenario. Do you mind sharing them with me? I'm sorry if I'm wrong with my perception here, but I think you might be trying to preempt where I'm going with my scenario. If you don't want to take part in the scenario, that is OK. Trust me, I won't mind at all and I understand. I would, however, like you, and anyone else, to consider it, for the time being. And I would like to request that anyone who answers, and I promise the same, to be intellectually honest in their answers. As far as corrections, I'm not sure I know what you mean by corrections. Perhaps you are calling for corrections based on where you assume I am going with my scenario? In that case I guess I can see why you would want to call them corrections. But, mine is a hypothetical scenario, and it is exactly as I created it to be, therefore it is correct. I think if you change the scenario, then my answers to those questions would probably change. I certainly don't mind entertaining your hypothetical scenario. Do you want to postulate your hypothetical scenario first, before we continue with mine? I don't mind. Kind Regards, Finrock

OK, so you aren't applying your standards across the whole of scripture. I'm assuming then that you can conceive of instances in the scriptures where something that is apparently contradictory, irrational, immoral, ect., is attributed to God and you would judge the scripture passage to not be in error. OK. And, to answer your question, yes. I can't say I fully understand where you are coming from, but I'm trying. I guess I'm trying to get a bit deeper than you appear to be willing to go, because some of what you are saying here assumes certain truths. To use a logic term, it's circular, but that's OK. I'm not trying to pigeonhole you to anything. I was just wanting to get a better understanding of your perspective, and I think I've come at least a bit closer in understand your point-of-view. Kind Regards, Finrock

This is primarily addressed to Snow, TruthSeekerToo, and HEthePrimate, but anyone who wants to can respond. I want to create a hypothetical scenario. Please, consider the following: Suppose there is a man who has an extraordinary ability. His name is Joe. Joe has the ability to know, perfectly, what a person has thought or done, what a person is thinking or doing, and what a person will think and do. Joe, who has this extraordinary ability, has never been wrong and there is know way for his ability to fail. Now, further suppose that Joe comes across another man, whom Joe knows to be a serial killer. Joe knows, perfectly, that the serial killer has killed dozens of innocent and helpless children in the past. Joe also knows that the serial killer is thinking of killing again, and as a matter of fact, Joe knows that the serial killer has another innocent and helpless victim at home that the serial killer intends to kill tonight. Further, Joe knows that if the serial killer isn't killed, then the serial killer will continue to kill innocent and helpless children in the future. Based on this scenario, would Joe be doing the morally right or wrong thing by killing the serial killer? Conversely, based on this scenario, would Joe be doing the morally right or wrong thing if he let the serial killer live? Kind Regards, Finrock

Good evening HethePrimate! Thanks for your post. I appreciate it. As a matter of fact, I was intending to invite others who supported Snow's point-of-view to feel free to contribute. I didn't want Snow to think I was picking on him, it's just that it seemed all others who were of the same opinion as Snow had abandoned the conversation and he was the only one left still participating. So, it is nice to get your 2 cents worth (and I'm sure your opinion is worth more than just 2 cents, btw). I think I understand, but I may have to dig a bit deeper just to be sure. You seem to at least believe that scripture is one way we can measure what is good or evil. Now, I'm not sure I understand the next part. I think you are saying that we can know that something is irrational, contradictory, unscientific, or immoral by studying those subject matters, which will then allow us to judge those things when we encounter them, in this case, in the scriptures. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for now I'm going to assume that is what you mean. Barring morality, for the time being, because I want to deal with that separate, how do you know that if you study those subject matters in question, so that you can correctly judge the scriptures using the knowledge you presumably gain from that studying, that what you have studied is right? To ask it more concisely: How do you know that what you are studying is good/right? Because you offered scripture as a way to test morality (good from evil), I wanted to deal with this question separate. If scripture is your tool for measuring morality (you offered Moroni 7:3-13 as an example), then how do you judge which portion of scripture you are going to accept as a valid moral value, particularly in cases where there appears to be two competing values in the same volume of scripture? Kind Regards, Finrock

Good morning Snow! Thanks for the answer. So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that if scripture attributes anything that is morally questionable, like stealing, raping, killing, etc. to God, then it is safe to reject that part of scripture as not actually being inspired. You also include anything that is a contradiction, irrational, or scientifically erroneous to the class of things that can be rejected as not being inspired. How do you determine what is morally questionable, contradictory, irrational, or scientifically erroneous? Moreover, what standard do you use to judge that something is morally questionable, it is irrational, it is contradictory, or it is scientifically erroneous? Kind Regards, Finrock

Evening Snow! Thanks. I'm glad I'm not misunderstanding you. Taking what you've written, I guess your issue isn't as much with 1 Nephi 4, than it is with Old Testament accounts where God commands whole civilizations to be destroyed. You seem to, at least in some sense, agree that Laban deserved what he got. So, in relation to the Old Testament accounts and to the extent that it is relevant to the 1 Nephi account, how do you reconcile the belief that the scriptures are the word of God, while at the same time believing that they are teaching such blatant falsehoods (i.e., the falsehood that God commands people to kill people or even worse, whole civilizations, including innocent children and animals)? I ask this question so that I can understand your position better. Thanks for having taken the time to take part in this discussion thus far. I'm sure you have better things to do. Kind Regards, Finrock

Hey Tarnished! I'm glad to meet you and I hope you are doing well today. I'm sorry to read of your frustrations in dealing with your brother's concerns. I've definately experienced the same type of frustrations in the past. It's hard to hear people say things that you know are false, especially when it's a family member and you want so very much for them to have faith in God like you do. I'm sure I don't have the best answer for you, but one thing I've learned from my experience is that you may not want to argue with your brother at all about this issue. In this months Ensign, President Eyring teaches a very valuable principle. I'll qoute the scripture President Eyring uses to make my point. In Alma 31:5 it reads, "And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God” In other words, Alma decided that he would teach doctrine to those who had so far been impervious to any other attempts to get them to change their minds or to act differently. Teaching doctrine is the tool that we have to help people gain faith. It is often taken for granted, but it has been shown in the scriptures, time and again, that it is hearing the word of God that produces faith and if nurished, this faith leads to a change of heart. Of course the person must be receptive to being taught. If they aren't, then there isn't much we can do but to offer to share our testimonies and our understanding of doctrine. However, we can try to help prepare people to listen. The Book of Mormon illustrates several ways that we can do this. One way is in Alma 17. This tells of when Ammon entered the land of Ishmael, he was bound and delivered before the Lamanite king. Now, Ammon's desire was to teach the Lamanites the gospel, but he didn't just brazenly start preaching to the king. Instead, he offered to be the king's servant. Thus, by serving the king, sincerely and faithfully, the Lamanite king's heart was softened and he eventually was willing to listen to Ammon's message. Through sincerely loving and serving the Lamanites, Ammon did much to help prepare them to receive his words. In the same way, you may want to let your brother know in deeds and in words how much you care for him. Empathize with his concerns and try to understand where he is coming from. I'm certain that as you sincerely love your brother and show him kindness, you will have opportunities to teach him true gospel principles and share your testimony of things that you are certain of. I think, in the end, this will have a more profound effect on your brother than any argument or reasoning that can be stipulated to try and prove the omnipotence of God. Kind Regards, Finrock

Good morning Snow! Thank you for the reply. I think I understand what you are saying. Let me rephrase it and see if I got it right. I think you are saying that the account in 1 Nephi is really just one example of a bigger issue that you have with Old Testament stories of God commanding people to be killed, particularly people who you perceive to be innocent people. In your mind, God simply wouldn't do this and therefore you doubt that these accounts are actually true. Because you feel that God wouldn't do the things people are attributing to Him, you do not have a testimony of these parts of the scriptures. Further, despite these apparent contradictions of how you understand God to be and some of the accounts that you are reading in the scriptures, you still have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, minus the account in 1 Nephi 4. However, you aren't really trying to address your underlying concern at this point, more than you are simply amused at what you perceive to be unreasonble explanations of these apparent contradictions or atleast discrepencies in the scriptures. Did I understand you correctly? Kind Regards, Finrock

Good Evening Snow! By-the-way, I never thanked you for your compliment a few posts ago. So, thanks! I'll go back and make sure to give you some kudos. Based on your comments in this thread, it seems that this issue has been a difficult thing for you to reconcile. I'm not sure if your posts are in an attempt to resolve your concerns or if you are trying to provide an answer that you have arrived at. If you are still trying to resolve this for yourself, I want to say that I'm sorry that you have struggled with this part of the Book of Mormon for so long without a resolution. In this case I wish that I could help you more. If you haven't reconciled it yet, how do you think this apparent moral dilemma can be reconciled? On the other hand, perhaps you've already reconciled this issue with yourself and are just trying to teach some truth. I'm sorry if this is the case and I've just missed your point. In that case, if you don't mind sharing with me, how do you, Snow, reconcile the account in 1 Nephi 4? Kind Regards, Finrock P.S. After looking back, I realized your compliment was from a different thread, not that that makes a any difference to my thanking you. =)

Thanks, I hope it gets here soon. The question "Does God command people to kill?" is an easy yes or no question. The answer is: Yes, sometimes God commands people to kill. Your questions as to "Why does God command people to kill?" is not as easy. It is hard, actually impossible, to answer "Why" with just yes or no. I think in an attempt to answer the "Why" part, there has been much discussion and "lessons", as you say. In asking a "Why" question, I hope you can see the reason you have been getting more than just yes or no answers. That is wonderful! Thank you for sharing your testimony of the Book of Mormon. How you describe questioning, studying, and receiving an answer is what I believe is exactly how it should be! :) Kind Regards, Finrock

Goodday TruthSeekerToo! I don't know about you, but up here in Michigan I'm ready for some warmth and sunshine. It seems to me that the world needs to double its global warming efforts, cause having near freezing weather in April is getting a bit silly! I wanted to comment on your post to Just_A_Guy, but first I wanted to share one last general point in regards to this topic. I'm probably the least knowledgable when it comes to knowing all the ins-and-outs of these things. Many people have made some really reasonable points and there is certainly merit in asking questions about events that seem so foreign to our experience, like being commanded by the Spirit to lobbing the heads off of wicked drunk people. I would venture to guess that none of us have any real experience by which we can relate to that thing specifically. As I mentioned in my last post to you, however, there does seem to be at least some very important items that are relevant to us and we can learn some very valueable truths. May I suggest, in all sincerity, that perhaps the question to focus on is not: Why did God command Nephi to kill Laban, but instead to focus on the question: Is the Book of Mormon truly the word of God and is it true? I think that as we approach the Book of Mormon as a factual account as being the inspired word of God, perserved to come forth in our time for our good, we will read it with a perspective of faith rather than a perspective of skepticism. Once we've confirmed, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the book is true and we read it from this perspective of faith, we can be confident that whatever the reasons were for Nephi being commanded to kill Laban, it was done in righteousness and God's mercy and justice were metted out perfectly. There have been many explanations given to explain, in rational terms, why the killing of Laban was justified. There are certainly reasonable alternatives that we can accept other than Nephi was a wicked murderer and the account in 1 Nephi 4 is unrealible and therefore we should not accept it as being scripture (Note: I am not claiming this is your stance, but using it simply to illustrate my point). This is why I believe the issue here isn't really about logic, or reason, but rather about faith. As our faith increases in God, so will our confidence increase in his word (scriptures) and in his prophets. Whatever the reasons are, we can say without equivocation: I know Nephi acted in righteousness. In regards to what Just_A_Guy posted, I wanted to make a few comments. I believe that his post was relying on a principle we find in scripture. Let me quote some of these scriptures to flesh this out. Here are the scriptures: "For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation" (D&C 82:3). "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is dgiven, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Luke 12:48). "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (4:17). The general tenor of these scriptures is that God doesn't judge all people the same. That knowledge of a principle plays a role in the severity of the judgement. It is true that eternal principles do not change. However, people's knowledge of eternal principles and their circumstances do change. It is my understanding that God works with his people at the level that they are at and judges them accordingly. The Israelites were given the Law of Moses because they could not live the higher law. The principle of us learning and understanding the gospel "line upon line, and precept upon precept" also seems to indicate that we are judged based on the light that is within us. We can look at the Law of Consecration as another example. It is an eternal law, yet we are not obligated to live this law to it's fullest extent at this time (i.e., giving all our possessions to the church and having all things in common, etc.), and this is not held againts us because that. Our circumstances and/or our readiness as a people apparently are such that God has given us leeway in this matter. Now, whether or not this was the case with Nephi, I do not know, but if I have understood Just_A_Guy correctly, then his point does have merit insofar as what we can read in the scriptures and what we can know concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. You bring up many important points and you should know that you are not alone in some of your concerns and that it is a good thing to question and wonder about the gospel with faith. I commend you for caring enough about these things to want to ask questions and to listen to answers. I know that I have very little wisdom to impart, but I do enjoy sharing some things that I've learned and have come to understand. I just hope that my posts are helpful to you and not a hinderance. Kind Regards, Finrock

Hi Truthseekertoo! Good afternoon to you and I hope you are doing well today. I just wanted to comment that for me, I have never understood the lesson of 1 Nephi 4 to be that we must kill if God tells us to. I think the fact that Nephi killed Laban isn't as important as the fact that Nephi trusted the Lord and was obedient. If I liken that scripture to myself, I don't envision being commanded by God to kill a drunk evil person. I do, however, envision myself being in very difficult situations where I do not know or understand fully what it is that I should do and trusting in the Lord to guide me to do what is right. The lesson I learn from 1 Nephi 4 is that sometimes what God requires of us may not make sense to our human reasoning and wisdom. Also, sometimes we are given callings from God that seem impossible for us to accomplish, but if we trust and obey God, he will provide a way. There is another lesson that I have experience in a very real way. In my various callings through-out the years, I have begun to learn to trust in the Lord more than I have in the past. In whatever calling I have had, I have always wanted to do the right things and be successful. However, I have had the tendency to trust in my own wisdom or the wisdom of the world, so to speak. I'd have elaborate plans and programs that were well intended, but ultimately missed the mark. I don't think I succeeded as well as I could have. It took some time, but ultimately I began to realize that I need to rely more on revelation and be humble. I have begun to see that if I do things the Lord's way, then I will likely succeed where in the past my efforts have failed. Just like Nephi and his brothers, they came up with their own plans and tried to execute them without success. It wasn't until Nephi fully relied on the the Spirit to lead him, that he succeeded in the getting the plates. So, those are just some of the things I have learned from that account in 1 Nephi. I have never, however, understood the lesson from that chapter to be teaching us that it is OK to kill another person and I doubt that this is what most people understand that passage to be teaching either. Kind Regards, Finrock

Hi Nothing (who is actually someone). Thanks for the reply. I hope you are doing well today! I think you are right. There are some conditions that aren't cured. For instance, there are people who are blind and they remain blind for all of their life. Or, there are people who are born without limbs or any number of physical or psychological ailments, and remain so through-out their life. However, I don't think a blind person needs to be cured of blindness before their "weakness" can become a strength to them. The same is true, I believe, for any weakness that we might have. We might suffer with our weaknesses our whole life, yet through the atonement of Jesus Christ, they can be made in to strengths. I love the verse in Ether that speaks to this when Jesus says that His "grace is sufficient to all men who humble themselves before [him]" (Ether 12:27). If anything can make a weakness in to a strength, it will be the atonement of Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient for all things. Like I said before, I don't really know much and I'm probably wrong on this point as well, but it seems to me, at least from my experience, that our ailments, our infirmities, are only weaknesses if we succumb to them and allow them to destroy our faith, our hope, and our love of God. Of course, you know your trials and you know your own suffering and I only share my thoughts in the hope that perhaps, in some small way, they may be for your benefit. Kind Regards, Finrock

Hi Snow! :) You are absolutely right. God doesn't test any of us by asking us to commit murder. You are also correct in pointing out that committing murder would also preclude us from receiving a temple recommend. Of course, the account in 1 Nephi chapter 4 has nothing to do with murder or God commanding Nephi to murder Laban. This much has been borne out in several posts by various people here on this thread. It isn't an unique position to equate the events in 1 Nephi 4 to murder. I would say it is a fairly routine misunderstanding. In some sense it is a completely understandable position take. All in all, though, this comes down to a very fundamental dilemma, which really doesn't have anything to do with the account in 1 Nephi 4. Once we have confirmed for ourselves the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and it's goodness, then we can be confident that God commanding Nephi to kill Laban did not equate to God commanding Nephi to murder. To make such a claim essentially denies the truthfulness and divine origin of the record. Of course anyone is free to assert that God commanded Nephi to murder, but this assertion wouldn't be speaking to any actual truth, but rather it would be speaking to the persons lack of faith in the Book of Mormon. In the end, the answer to this dilemma is for those who lack faith to gain faith by testing God's word through humility, obedience, and prayer. This way we can come to know, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that the Book of Mormon is true, leading us to read it with eyes of faith rather than eyes of skepticism. Once we start reading the Book of Mormon with eyes of faith, that's when we start gaining spiritual strength and understanding. It is a wonderful thing. I'm very happy about it and I love sharing that part of the Book of Mormon. There is so much for us to gain from reading it, pondering its message, and studying it. I want everyone to have those blessings and even more. Kind Regards, Finrock

Hey anatess! Good to meet you online. I really just wanted to comment that I liked reading your experience because to me it was a real life example and evidence of the divine source of church callings. I'm happy that you accepted that calling and that instead of allowing it to discourage you, you exercised faith and it turned out to be a great blessing for you. I think that is really awesome. :) Kind Regards, Finrock

Greetings Nothing! I'm glad to meet you online. I go by Finrock here on this forum. I don't post much, although I've been posting a bit more than usually here lately. I'm a Mormon, I'm married, and I have 4 children. I have a 5th one on the way. My wife is due in September. It's a girl so we will now have 2 boys and 3 girls. The girls now have the majority vote in the family, although I've heard that in some places the patriarch of the family counts as 4 votes, but this condition doesn't seem to fly in my household. I'm no expert and I don't even really know what I'm talking about most of the time. However, I can share with you my opinions on why people have suicidal thoughts and perhaps share some insight that I've gleaned on why God allows us to suffer through trials, in general, including depression and other such illnesses. From the little I understand, suicidal thoughts can stem from sin or from an actual chemical imbalance or other psychological disorder. I'll share my thoughts on both points. Please realize that I am speaking in generalities, as you requested, and none of my points are targeted at you nor do I even pretend to know the cause of your depression and suicidal thoughts. One truth the Book of Mormon makes clear is that "wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41:10). Therefore, one cannot commit sin and find true, lasting peace, joy, or happiness. As a person continues to commit sin and separate themselves further and further from God and his light, they often begin to feel very poorly about themselves, whether they admit it or not. There is no love or respect for themselves, causing them to feel that they are worthless, inadequate, and hopeless. These thoughts can lead to suicidal thoughts and suicide. Sin depresses our spirits and leads us to misery. It is easy to see why a person heaped in sin would want to escape their condition. This type of suicide is not good and actually the person would be better off to stay alive so that they can have time to repent. Another reason for suicidal thoughts is caused by an actual illness. Bipolar disorder, for one, is a chemical imbalance that induces wide mood and emotional swings. Either intense happiness or irritability at one spectrum or deep, dark depression on the other. When people with bipolar disease are having an episode of depression, they can be suicidal or even homicidal. There are, of course, other illnesses and conditions, that can induce depression and suicidal thoughts. These types of suicides, if they occur, probably aren't the fault of those committing them. A disease, like bipolar, is not something that a person can just "will" to be gone. It is a condition that needs to be treated. There is a great quote from Elder Bruce R. McConkie on this subject: "Suicide consists in the voluntary and intentional taking of one’s own life, particularly where the person involved is accountable and has a sound mind. … Persons subject to great stresses may lose control of themselves and become mentally clouded to the point that they are no longer accountable for their acts. Such are not to be condemned for taking their own lives. It should also be remembered that judgment is the Lord’s; he knows the thoughts, intents, and abilities of men; and he in his infinite wisdom will make all things right in due course" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 771). It is not for us to judge those who have committed suicide. God will take in to account all of the circumstance leading up to that event and He will judge righteously. Now, on the question of why does God allow depression to exist. I do not know specifically why depression is allowed. I do not think anybody will be able to answer that question. However, there is an answer as to why we have weaknesses and why we are given trials. First, it is helpful to know that, "[t]here hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Cor. 10:13). In the scripture, God has given us many words of comfort that help us to understand some of the horrible tragedy and trials that we must often bear. He has stated that He has given us weaknesses so that we can be humble. But, God has also promised that His grace is sufficient for us to overcome our weaknesses as we humble ourselves. In doing so, God promises to make our weak things become our strengths (Ether 12:27). The atonement of Jesus Christ also makes it possible for us to find relief. In the allegory of the Vineyard we learn that God has specifically placed us in to those parts of the vineyard where we reside. Thinking to counsel the Master of the vineyard, the servant of the Lord asked why a tree was planted in the poorest spot of the vineyard. In reply, the Lord of the vineyard responded, "Counsel me not; I knew that it was a poor spot of ground; wherefore, I said unto thee, I have nourished it this long time, and thou beholdest that it hath brought forth much fruit" (Jacob 5:21). God knows our conditions and He will provide the nourishment we need so that we prosper and be happy. Furthermore, Jesus has gone below all things and suffered all things so that he can succor us. The trials we have, can be overcome through faith, through righteous living, and quite often we will need the help and prayers of others, including doctors and therapist if necessary. In the end, the trials will be for our strength and for our good, just as Jesus Christ promised Joseph Smith in his darkest moments: "5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false rethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea; 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb; 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he" (D&C 122)? Kind Regards, Finrock

Snow, Greetings! Even though I haven't made any claims in regards to most of what you wrote, your points sound really reasonable. There is definitely some value to be gleaned from your opinions and thoughts on this issue. The Introduction to JST and the entry in the Guide to the Scriptures on the JST is scripture enough for me. These texts are approved by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve and I feel confident in trusting the content of these texts. More importantly for me, however, is that my understanding on this matter feels right to me and I've learned to trust those feelings through-out my life. Lastly, I just want to point out once more that the important thing here, in my view, is to understand that the JST restored and clarified many truths about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Whether these truths were a product of fundamental changes made to the text, restorations, clarifications, logical deductions, or wild guesses, is ultimately irrelevant. The fact is that what we have in the JST is truth and all truth, I believe, is revealed either through the Light of Christ or by the Holy Spirit (btw, deriving truth via logic doesn't necessarily exclude the assistance of the Holy Spirit or the discerning power of the Light of Christ that is in all of us). Thank you very much for taking the time to share and to respond. Kind Regards, Finrock

Snow, Yes, my faith is based on many things. My faith is based on my life experiences; primarily spiritual experiences. I've learned, by revelation, that Joseph Smith is a prophet. Over time and on various occasions, the Spirit has confirmed and reconfirmed my belief that Joseph Smith is a prophet. Not only that, but I've felt the Spirit confirm to me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of Jesus Christ. My faith leads me to trust the Church and to trust the Church leaders. So, when the Church says that, "[t]he Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore truths to the Bible text that had become lost or changed since the original words were written. These restored truths clarified doctrine and improved scriptural understanding," I believe it (JST LDS.org). I don't know, but that isn't really that important to me. That is what I was trying to say earlier is that the important thing, I think, anyways, about the JST has less to do with whether these were changes, restorations, or clarifications and more to do with what the truths JST provided to us. In short, I just know that Joseph Smith was inspired to make the changes he did and these changes restored truths that were lost. Thanks for the questions and thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify! Kind Regards, Finrock

Snow, Yeah, it's a matter of faith. It's simply my testimony of the matter. Thank you for sharing your opinion. :) Kind Regards, Finrock

Evening Snow! I hope you are doing well tonight. I don't have much to say except I think that the Joseph Smith translation both clarified existing parts of the KJV Bible and in some cases fundamentally changed the verses. In each case, I'm confident that the purpose, really, was that the intended meaning or original text of any scripture was revealed. Whether it fundamentally changed the verse, clarified it, or did whatever else to the KJV verses, is moot, in my opinion. In the end, what we have in the JST are restored truths brought forth through revelation. Take care, friend! Kind Regards, Finrock

Good Evening Soul_Searcher! It's nice to meet you, if only just online! I don't post here much, but I've lurked a lot and sometimes when I feel good about answering or responding to a post, I like to take a jab at it. I hope you will find at least a little bit of value in what I write. President Uchtdorf gave a talk just this last conference where he taught, what I think is a very profound principle for anyone who is "searching" for truth (which at some point or another all of us are). I would like to quote him here to some extent. President Uchtdorf said, in regards to gaining a testimony and becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ: "A friend of mine recently wrote to me, confiding that he was having a difficult time keeping his testimony strong and vibrant. He asked for counsel. I wrote back to him and lovingly suggested a few specific things he could do that would align his life more closely with the teachings of the restored gospel. To my surprise, I heard back from him only a week later. The essence of his letter was this: “I tried what you suggested. It didn’t work. What else have you got?” Brothers and sisters, we have to stay with it. We don’t acquire eternal life in a sprint—this is a race of endurance. We have to apply and reapply the divine gospel principles. Day after day we need to make them part of our normal life. Too often we approach the gospel like a farmer who places a seed in the ground in the morning and expects corn on the cob by the afternoon. When Alma compared the word of God to a seed, he explained that the seed grows into a fruit-bearing tree gradually, as a result of our “faith, and [our] diligence, and patience, and long-suffering.” It’s true that some blessings come right away: soon after we plant the seed in our hearts, it begins to swell and sprout and grow, and by this we know that the seed is good. From the very moment we set foot upon the pathway of discipleship, seen and unseen blessings from God begin to attend us. But we cannot receive the fulness of those blessings if we “neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment.” Knowing that the seed is good is not enough. We must “nourish it with great care, that it may get root. Only then can we partake of the fruit that is “sweet above all that is sweet, and . . . pure above all that is pure” and “feast upon this fruit even until [we] are filled, that [we] hunger not, neither shall [we] thirst.” Discipleship is a journey. We need the refining lessons of the journey to craft our character and purify our hearts. By patiently walking in the path of discipleship, we demonstrate to ourselves the measure of our faith and our willingness to accept God’s will rather than ours" (The Way of the Disciple). So, what is my point in quoting President Uchtdorf? I wanted to show you that faith does not come all at once. We may not gain a knowledge or answers to all of the things we want immediately. It can be useful to have a reasoned explanation of scripture and other doctrinal points. There are plenty of well reasoned articles on the Book of Abraham available as other posters have already provided links to them. However, no matter how cliche it may seem, true conversion to any part of the restored gospel, including a testimony of the Book of Abraham, comes after we exercise faith and obedience consistently and continuously, to gospel laws. As you do this, Soul_Searcher, you will find your doubts will soon disappear. I guarantee it! :) Kind Regards, Finrock

Good evening TruthseekerToo! I'm glad to make your acquaintance. I would like to share with you my thoughts on the things you have posted. You have said many things and I do not intend to address each point, point-by-point, because I think that what I have to write, directly relates to all of what you have posted. I think for the scripture in 1 Nephi 4:11 we have to make an assumption and I think it is a safe assumption based on what we know about God, prophets, the Gospel, and Nephi himself, before and after what transpired in chapter 4. So, the assumption I think we can make is that the relationship Nephi had with God was such that Nephi could recognize and properly discern God's voice from the voice of the adversary. Nephi was asked to perform a highly unusual act in the sense that it is not often in scripture where we see someone asked by God to kill another in such intimate circumstances. Using myself as an example, I cannot say that my relationship with God is such that I would know and trust a command to kill another if I were in a similar circumstance as Nephi was in. However, I cannot assume that a prophet of God does not have such a relationship. It is obvious to me that Nephi had developed in his faith and spiritually to such an extent that he was capable of knowing, without doubt, that the command to kill Laban did indeed come from God and not from some other source. It is telling, I think, that Nephi did not exhibit any doubt as to the source of the command. He knew immediately that the command came from God. Nephi may have shuddered at the thought of taking another person's life, but he never doubted the source. So, when we make the assumption (and we have every reason to make this assumption) that Nephi was a righteous follower of God and had built a relationship with God through consistent obedience and faith to the point that he could know without doubt that God was speaking with him, then all worry and concern on our part should disappear. We can know that Nephi acted righteously, being obedient to the voice of the Master as he had been obedient to Him up to that event in his life. I think it is interesting that Nephi closes his record in the Book of Mormon with words that seem to reflect back on his decisions to obey God, not just with the slaying of Laban, but with all of his choices through-out his life and it underlines Nephi's loyalty and determination to God when he speaks: "...for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen." Kind Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Newcomer4831! I'm Finrock, by-the-way. I hope you are doing well today! I don't want to pretend that I have all the answers, but I hope that my answer is useful to you. I think the answer to your question above involves more than what you propose. From what I have learned in my study of the gospel, from what I have experienced, and from what I understand other's to have experienced, the way that we can know if God is speaking to us or if it is another voice is something that is learned over time. Let me quote some scripture to help illustrate my point. Jesus said in John 7:17 "If any man do [the Father's] will he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God..." One way we begin to learn to know and understand what comes from God is by obedience. Obviously without knowing what is of God, initially, we must start off somewhere, and sometimes we must start by just having only a desire to believe in the words of God, as it is describe in Alma 32. A scripture that was qouted by someone earlier gives us some insight, as well, which we can use to discern if something is good. Namely, if something persuades us to be better, to do good, and to believe in Christ, we can trust in that message. But, with this initial desire to believe, we exercise our faith by obeying those things we have heard from prophets, either directly from their mouths or what we have recorded in scripture. Alma 32 then describes that as we exercise faith and begin to obey those things we have heard, we will begin to feel the word "swelling" within us. We will begin to see and feel a difference, for the better, in our life. This in turn increases our faith and we now know a bit more of how the Spirit communicates with us. In Mosiah 5:13 we read "For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?" As we continue to be obedient, and make a real effort to do good and love God, our understanding of God will increase. Our faith in Him will increase. Our desire to serve Him will increase. With this increase in knowledge of God will also naturally come a greater capacity to perceive when God is speaking to us. We begin to be able to recognize His voice beyond what we have known before. Jesus said in John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice...and they follow me" Our persistent and continued obedience to God's laws eventually leads us to become His sheep, or his disciples. We will then hear His voice, because we recognize it, when He calls, and we will follow Him. The key to knowing how to discern God's voice, is to consistently exercise faith and consistently obey God's word. We are always given enough discernment, in the beginning, to allow us to exercise if even only a particle of faith. If we don't reject this initial discernment that is given us, we can, through our continued obedience, grow our faith and understanding of God to a point where we can know, like Nephi knew, when God speaks to us. We will know the master whom we have faithfully and consistently served and we will recognize his voice. Kind Regards, Finrock

Greetings Prisonchaplain! Whatever post of yours that I've read, I have appreciated your always respectful tone. Thank you. :) I think the "but" in that sentiment is "...as long as it has been translated correctly". What that means is that we don't just accept any translation of the Bible or any interpretation. When the truth of the Bible is understood correctly (for LDS, correctly means within the context of the LDS faith), then it is cherished as much as any other scripture. However, I do not perceive the Bible as being the runt. So, really, any issue that might exist is not with the Bible, per se, but with it's various translations and/or interpretations. The 8th Article of Faith says it more succintly, as another poster already pointed out. As far as the Bible is translated correctly, we believe it is the word of God. When human errors have crept in and modified the Bible, we do not believe those human errors and modifications to be the word of God. And, if you think about it, this makes sense and it should be the standard for any Christian religion, in my opinion. Kind Regards, Finrock