Justice

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Had they partook of the tree of life after eating the forbidden fruit the door of redemption would have been closed... destroying the agency of man. So, I'm asking if God would "interfere" and guard it so Adam and Eve could not eat it even if they wanted to. The thing about Joseph Smith is that He had to exercise faith before God appeared to him. So, his agency in that wasn't interfered with. It's not until after man exercises faith that the miracle happens. In my mind the 2 are different, unless after eating the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve actually made the choice to become mortal instead of going back to an immortal state... which is clearly what Satan wanted for them.

I'm saying anything that is worth having temporarily is only made better if it is permanent.

The effects and affects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ cannot be separated from the Gospel itself. It has made it possible for people to experience joy and become holy... 2 things we cannot completely become or know without the Gospel.

Yes, Snow, but all those things you metnioned, even life itself, becomes temporary. Even being good and keeping law becomes meaningless... if there is no God or life after death (one comes with the other).

I don't think they would have lost the knowledge or ability. Losing the knowledge or ability would not result in them being lost forever, with no chance at redemption, since it could always be regained or relearned. The problem was that if they regained immortality before they had children then the family of man, all of Eve's descendants, would have been immortal. Satan knew that and that's what he wanted. The problem is that Jesus Christ would have been born immortal (no blood), hence no shedding of blood, no sacrifice, no redemption. So, literally, it would have been impossible to redeem man from the fall. THAT would have destroyed the agency of man... not that he couldn't choose, but that his choice would have meant absolutely nothing because choosing God was meaningless without the ability to return to Him. This makes Alma 12 and 42 make perfect sense, since it says "if Adam (and Eve) would have partaken of the tree of life immediately after man would not have become mortal." But, mortality WAS granted to man... Check it out... Alma 12 and 42.

The Gospel, or good news, is that Jesus Christ made it possible for us to be forgiven of our sins and return to God and live in His presence. I'd say that's pretty good news! (Sorry, Snow... 21 words)

That's a great question. In fact, this whole line of questioning shows you have been giving this matter deep study and thought. This post is quickly typed and not proofread, so excuse any typos. Here is the best scripture I know to help answer this question. After the fall, Alma said this of the "state of death" man was in: Alma 42: 8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness. 9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. Do you see the significance? OK... here we go. God's children cannot rebel against Him or eternal law while in His presence because if they do justice takes over and they are expelled from His presence forever (Lucifer and the fallen ones). But, in order to progress beyond the state of innocence His children were in, and learn to have children for themselves, and learn to make right choices for themselves, they had to experience both. So, He created an earth and placed His spirit offspring in physical bodies so that when they sinned they would "fall" to a state of mortality, thereby instead of eternal death they would suffer a temporary state where they could repent before they answered for their sin. This mortal existence is a state of separation from God (even forgetting that we once existed with Him). Once man was mortal he gained the knowledge of good and evil by experiencing temptation and sin. If during a man's mortal probation period, or a period of time, the man set aside the things of the world and saught the things of God, or became born again as to the things of God, that man's sins could be answered for to justice by a Savior who paid the debt. This state of mortality "separates" us from an eternal punishment for a time because we are separated from God for a time. So, before we are judged, we have the opportunity to exercise faith in Christ and repent. If our sin is purged and washed clean we can re-enter God's presence with the desire to do good continually... having gained the knowledge of good and evil, a physical body, and the ability or knowledge of procreation. Spiritual rebirth is essential to fallen man. Once a man has been spiritually reborn they can be redeemed from physical death. If they are reborn while in mortality then they can be redeemed from death without experiencing death. Another way of looking at it, and if you read Alma 42 closely, this very existence is termed "death." So, since they were mortal, the experienced death. I'm not exactly sure. I know there has to be opposition, but I don't think that's the real answer as to why. But, I have speculated a great deal about this, and your next question plays a role... Let me start by asking a question. Does God ever interfere with man's moral agency? It's a quick and simple question, but one not answered quickly. I believe, after much pondering, praying, and studying, that He does not. Moving forward with that answer, it creates some difficulty with God placing a barrier so that adam and Eve could not eat of the tree of life after they partook of the forbidden fruit. The scriptures make no mention of Adam and Eve making a decision NO TO parake of the tree of life at that time, but I think it's the only expanation that fits, at least at this point. Satan told Eve that she would not surely die after she ate the fruit, and that was after God told Eve she would surely die after she ate the fruit. Now, I don't know how much Eve knew about death. How can one who cannot die understand death? I don't think they fully understood the consequences. I believe Alma 12 and 42 describe Satan's plan. He told Eve she would not die because all she had to do was eat of the tree of life afterward (which she knew was there because she saw it and maybe even ate of it already) and they wouldn't die. That's a possible reason for why it was there. So, if Adam and Eve made a second decision to "die" instead of partake of the tree of life and become immortal right then, it makes the whole Garden of Eve story much more clear. Once they made their choice then God guarded it to "keep it's way." They had to be expelled from the Garden because they could no longer live in "God's presence." So, I believe Adam and Eve made the choice to follow through with God's plan and become mortal, or to enter the state of death, instead of partaking the tree of life and going along with Satan. It says "if it were possible" that they could eat the tree of life immediately afterward, but I don't think it means God interfered with their agency. If He did, and He made it not possible for them to eat it, then He interfered with their agency. I do believe the tree in the garden represented the love of God. I have my opinion as to what I think "the love of God" is. I'm not sure I want to say, though. After this post, many will think me crazy enough.

That's a good question. In fact, I didn't even consider either, because no matter who delivers a truth, it must be confirmed by the Spirit.

Oh wow! Now your talkin' I can't wait to get back from work today... I'm going to sit myself down right here and make every attempt to answer these questions. Very good, JaG!

From President Hinckley: Modern revelation gives additional light (see D&C 76:2529), as does the book of Moses (see Moses 4:14), which tells of Satan's plan to destroy the agency of man. Entire article: President Gordon B. Hinckley, "War and Peace," <em>Ensign,</em> May 2003 Whether you believe it or not, or understand it or not, or agree or not, Satan had a plan: Moses 4: 3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; We see that his plan wasn't going to work. But, he did seek to gain God's own power, in addition to destroying man's agency. You don't just show up and decide to try to take away God's power... you show up with a plan that you think might work. I don't think you're giving Lucifer enough credit for his intelligence and determination. If he didn't have a "plan" crafted and presented to others, how did he draw a third part of the hosts of heaven?

Who's standard? Today for lunch I had a garden salad and a baked potato... a common lunch and favorite of mine. Last night my son made us some awesome avacado sandwiches (yummmm). I also eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches (peanut butter is a food group!). My wife loves a good steak, not so much me. Our family has lots of fruits and veggies when we have steak (grilled well done of course) and we split 2 small steaks between the 4 of us (about 4-5 oz. each). We eat meat, but our standard is not to each much when we do, and only a couple times a week. I don't drink beer.

OK, so do you have an answer to the question I asked?

I didn't say it was a good plan, or a plan that could save man. But, he most certainly had a plan that would destroy the agency of man. It is what led him to temp Eve.

It's a matter of timing. Think of Lehi and Nephi's dream, where the righteous are partaking of the tree of life. It is what God wants for us, too... right?

This is difficult. In my view it's a battle of wills. It's what we want for ourselves verse what God wants for us. When you can say you no longer desire anything for yourself other than what God wants for you (might include intese pain, persecution, or even tremendous loss--- but also may include joy and peace so sweet we can't get to on our own) you are close. Think of the things that matter most to you. If God asked you to give them up, could you? Or, would you? I know many people like to blurt out and say "yes it's easy..." but with serious contemplation one can't help but understand how difficult that bridge is to cross.

Snow, it's called truth. Things as the were, as they are, and as they will be. WHen man develops or studies his way to a truth it can never be 100% confirmed because there will always be things we don't know. But, when God reveals a truth to man, not only can we have 100% complete confidence that it's true now, but that it always has been true, and that it always will be true. That is real.

Huh? Show me how a "beer" passes for a "mild drink?" ...and I'm not buying it's "milder" than others. This is justification at it's worst.

God is just. When a law is broken that law must be appeased. There is a punishment attached to law. If God does not enact the punishment (or allow the consequences) then He is not just. What is offered through Christ is mercy in place of a just punishment. Christ allows the demands of the broken law by us, or debt to justice, to be paid in full. He then can extend mercy or forgiveness though what He accomplished. He ransomed us. Christ taught a Gospel of love and doing good to our fellow man. He said He would judge us based on this criteria. It is for Him to say what demands are attached to gain the gift He offers, since He paid the debt and we are indebted to Him now. He told us the criteria He will use for judgement. He paid the debt for the rapist, murderer, and all the others you mention. He wants us to repent, forgive others, and to treat each other justly. He said if we do those things He will stike an agreement with justice on our behalf and grant us mercy. If we do not, we are left to ourselves, because that is what we chose by our actions. I don't see anything inconsistent in D&C 76 with these principles.

It seems from one point of view you are saying that what we do doesn't matter, in the way of gaining salvation, but that what we do does matter in the way of damnation. Is that right?

Does anyone see why Satan's plan would have worked? (speaking of the plan outlined in Alma 12 and 42) I mean didn't God want Adam and Eve to partake of the tree of life after they partook of the forbidden fruit anyway? What was fundamentally different about Satan's plan, and why did his plan have the power to remove the agency of man (or destroy the agency of man) and make it to where even the great Jehova could no longer save us?

Which of the 119 verses in D&C 76 are you referring to? Sorry, it's late and I'm tired. I'll look for the specific verses from you tomorrow.

I believe it is both.

He and she are used many times in scriptures when referring to things like earth, seeds, fruit... Just because it used he and she doesn't mean it was an actual person, but it could have been a symbol of a person of that gender. Seeds are he becuase the represent the word of God, which "Word of God" is Christ. In other words, I do believe both were real trees, and I also believe they were symbols for other things or individuals. That is one of my favorite scriptures about the tree of life. :)

I see where both of you are coming from. Perfect can be without sin, from a certain point of view. But, Jesus calls us to not only be without sin, but to be involved in doing much good. So, from another perspective, not sinning may not be enough to be perfect. Jesus certainly did spend His time doing good for others. He sacrificed His whole life, not just His sacrifice on the cross. Even still, I see what Trveler is saying as well. Jesus wasn't "perfect" in mortality because He had a mortal body that bled and could die. It wasn't until He was resurrected and sat down at the right of the Father in His glorified, perfected, state that He was "perfect." To substantiate this comment, Jesus did not include Himself in His examples of "perfect" in any of His comments until AFTER He was resurrected. He did say He was "perfect" to the Nephites when He appeared to them, but that was after He was resurrected. To them, He said "as my Father or I are perfect." I really don't think you two are disagreeing, I just think you are using different words.

We passed through the veil of forgetting to enter mortality. Lucifer did not. He remembers God's plan and how he wanted to alter it. He remembers everything he learned there. I'm not saying he knows everything, but he certainly knew what God's plan was because he rejected it when it was proposed. In fact, I have given this much thought over the years, and I think part of the reason Lucifer didn't accept the plan, and all those who sided with him, is because they didn't want to pass through a veil of forgetting, having to rely on faith in another to be saved.