Justice

...and that Redeemer was selected and ordained even before the foundation of the earth was laid. I think too many people don't realize the impact that that piece of information alone has on the interpretation of the fall. Very good post.

It mentions what he wanted, yes, but Alma outlines part of Satan's plan in detail (12 and 42). His plan is not mentioned in that detail in the D&C.

As a result of their fall, God said "man has become as one of us, to know good and evil..." Cursed from one standpoint, but blessed for the opportunity to progress. PC, the Book of Mormon offers more information on what Satan meant when he said they would not die. He had a plan that would have allowed them to become immortal again after eating the forbidden fruit. He was trying to turn the attention away from the spiritual death and focus on the physical death. When, in fact, God wanted to focus on the spiritual death first, before they were redeemed from physical death. This is why man was given "time" or a probation period, so they could repent before they were made immortal agian. Also, the curse was as much of a consequence of their actions as it was anything God did to them. But, God did allow it, so...

You are right about the glorified, perfected body. Adam did not have one and therefore could fall. This could turn into a long discussion, which more than likely will end no where. There are so many things that point to them simply not having the knowledge. I see no evidence that supports the supposition that they physically were unable to have children. The first reason is that God created them perfect. I think the quote is saying they "needed" to fall in order to have mortal children, because had the change not come over their bodies their children would have been immortal, unable to die physically. The big deal about the change is they had to become (and stay) mortal before they had children in order for God's plan to work (Alma 12 and 42). Man had to become mortal in order to have time to multiply and replenish the earth, or to keep the first commandment. It's tricky to understand, much less try to explain. But, that mankind needed to be mortal, or go through spiritual and physical death, is taught plainly in the scriptures. Time is very different when looking at it through immortal eyes. To someone who has never experienced mortality, or time, I wonder if it's even possible to understand fully? (Much like us trying to undertstand eternity) So, Adam and Eve, being immortal (never mortal) did not fully understand the consequence of "death." Thus, making their act a trangression, not a sin. Alma 12: 24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead. Also, what exactly did Adam and Eve learn when they fell through transgression? Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. At first reading this statement seems pretty generic. But, when you pick it apart and break it down, it becomes quite profound. They had 3 different kinds of seed, all gained through the fall. All 3 seeds were types of the others. 1. Seed = food to eat to feed them physically (till the earth) 2. Seed = word of God to feed them spiritually (Christ) 3. Seed = offspring (which would require both 1 and 2 to raise them properly) I believe all 3 are tied to the knowledge they gained by partaking of the forbidden fruit. All 3 were knowledge that needed to be gained. God taught them by teaching them how seeds work when you plant them (seeds are male and earth is female). This physical teaching also taught them the other 2 things they had to learn (about "seed"). It also taught them that they were the offspring of God, since He made them "from the dust of the earth." Don't want to get any deeper into it. I just condensed about 20 years of study into 5 minutes. I don't expect anyone to follow, there is so much missing, and so many gaps. But, I just wanted to show you where I was going.

My answer is I don't know. Our spirits existed before we were born here. So, there must be a procreation process for the spirit that is different than that of the body. How similar the processes are is beyond me. I wish more was written about how God places a spirit into a body.

They gained the knowledge by partaking of the fruit. That's not to say the knowledge was in the fruit, because I don't know. It may have been in becoming mortal, which was caused by eating the fruit. But, it is clear they did not have the knowledge, or even recognize the differences in the sexes, when they were in their innocent state. When they hid from God because they were ashamed, and recognized their nakedness, they then had whatever they needed to procreate, even if they didn't fully know how to at the time. God created their bodies in a perfect state, which, to me, means they had the ability to procreate, they just lacked the knowledge. Much like a young child is innocent and does not understand procreation. as a young child gains this knowledge they, to, become ashamed.

Vort, your last post shows a deep and profound understanding of the subject.

I've yet to find it, but I've read commentary on this before. It has been stated clearly that this is the opinion of the speaker, and other prophets and apostles disagreed strongly. If Adam could have fallen with a resurrected body, then why didn't Heavenly Father just fall again, Himself, and atone for the sins of world without sending His Son? The general censesus from what I have read is that Heavenly Father couldn't be born mortal or fall because He had a glorified, resurrected body, and one who had not received such a body had to fall, and also the one who atoned had to be able to shed blood and die. I think this theory is one of "what fits some of the revealed facts," and not one of known truth. I, of course, as you suspect, have a different theory that fits with the fact that Heavenly Father could not fall or atone since He had a glorified and perfected body. It has to do with this scripture: Abraham 3: 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; There are lots of truths to be gained from this scripture, but they may not be the obvious statements it appears to make. If you study this verse long and hard, some obvious questions arise.

I think your definition of evil is spot on.

Yes, we must experience evil to truly understand the joy and holiness in the absence of evil. Evil is a necessary ingredient in our exaltation. I'm truly sorry about your past. I didn't have to experience abuse like that as a child, but I am close to those that have. I hope you find healing and peace.

As has been alluded to in this discussion, I believe the premise that God created evil stems from a false understanding of who God is. If, as was mentioned, you believe there was a time when God was alone, and then in a moment He brought everything into existence out of nothing, then you would have a hard time explaining how God did not create evil. As LDS, we believe the family of man has always existed. There was never a time when man did not exist. This means both God and evil are eternal. And, as far as God doing nothing about it, I'm not sure what you want Him to do. Coming to an earth and having man partake of the knowledge of good and evil is an essential step in our exaltation. If you remove evil then you remove man's ability to choose good, because he is left with no choice... which is about where we were in our pre-earth life. Remove evil and you remove man's choice; remove man's choice and you remove the possibility at exaltation. As the old saying goes... evil is a necessary evil. If there was a way to exalt man without agency or evil, I'm sure it would be done.

Yes, the Holy Ghost is the Comforter. However, Christ is the Second Comforter, who comes to a man who has been truly born again. My point was not that they perform the same roles, or overlapping roles, but why they were not allowed to be present at the same time with man.

When we forgive others it is for us. It prevents us from having hate in our spirit and allows us to love our fellow man. It alos prevents us from being hypocrites, since we are in need of forgiveness ourselves. When God forgives us it is for us. It makes absolutely no difference to another person whether we forgive them or not. Well, it doesn't make an eternal difference; we don't have the abilitiy to excuse them from any wrong they have done, or to answer to them for justice. The only possible thing it can do for another when we forgive them is perhaps help them to feel better.

I'm going to answer honestly, although my answers may reflect a lack of scientific prowess. Do you believe evolution occurs at all? Yes. Do you believe new species can occur through evolution? Variations of species, yes, but not new species. Do you believe in universal common descent, that all life on earth is related (in more than just a metaphorical sense)? Mankind yes, but not all life. How old do you believe the universe is? I believe it has always existed, elements and all. How old do you believe the earth is? I don't know, but I have no reason to doubt what scientists discover. From a scriptural standpoint, I don't believe the answer is given specifically. Do you believe that the Big Bang theory is accurate? No. I believe what scientists are seeing is happening, but I think there are still many unknowns to be sure. Since I believe the universe has always been here, there is another explanation for what scientists are seeing. Do you believe any current prevailing scientific theories are at odds with your faith? Nope. If strong scientific evidence directly contradicted your faith in some way, would that change anything for you? I believe I will yet learn many things about science and about my faith. I fully expect to change what I learn in all areas of my life over time. "Change my faith..." yes, "Doubt my faith..." no.

I don't believe I'm assuming, to me it's right there in the text. I think to believe differently you have to ignore the text in favor of an interpretation that has been passed down. I think oftentimes we use traditional beliefs to interpret the scriptures. I discovered many years ago that I certainly do. Over the last many years I have been trying to break out of that habit. My eyes have been opened to a great many things in the scriptures as I study and question my understanding of them. I have learned some amazing things about the creation, fall, and atonement as I have concentrated my studies on those 3 things over the past several years. I sincerely believe the reason I didn't learn these truths earlier in my life is because I closed my mind to them in favor of what I could understand, or to what made sense at the time. It's hard to explain. But, that's the best I can do.

Again, it really doesn't matter if it was commentary by Moses, or an actual quote from Adam. The scriptures attribute the thought or learning to Adam. Since Moses wasn't there he needed revelation in order to know what happened between God and Adam.

Well, not everyone is meant to go on a mission, but the Church's position is that all worthy male members have a responsibility to go. I know a young man in our ward who turned in his papers but was told to do the best he could with missionary efforts as he attended college. They didn't call him. But, he did everything he could to go. All you can do is be honest with yourself, and sincerely seek to know if it's something you should do. But, a bit of advice, if the Prophet gives specific direction to members, as like in the case of all worthy young men are to serve missions, you should already know the answer. :) Maybe you need to just make the decision to go and try to find the answer as to when. But, again, once you decide to go, I see no reason to wait.

No different answer here. Although I think I at least have to claim to know Him... and we know Him by trying to keep His commandments.

Is that your entire argument for not believing Adam and Eve were born? Did you read Genesis 2? 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. It doesn't make any difference who wrote it. The fact is Moses was speaking about what Adam knew and about what Adam said.

Oh, and, because of this... yes, Adam and Eve both had belly buttons. :)

YES! I'm so glad you said this and are asking these questions here. Had I asked them I would be called a know-it-all. There are answers to your questions, But, I suspect you know that. :) I'll offer (I'll be careful) an opinion on the first question... Perhaps Eve was born and brought to Adam when she was old enough? Adam references this by: Genesis 2: 24 Therefore shall a man [or woman] leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: [or husband] and they shall be one flesh. How did Adam know anything about a father and mother, and that kids should leave their parents at some point in time to become fathers or mothers themselves? If God created Adam and Eve how most people think He did, out of dust like clay, then how did Adam know anything about a mother? This is the greatest evidence for Heavely Mother in the Bible IMO. Many treasures to be found in the creation story.

Many think the day of Pentecost in early Acts was the first time such an outpouring was ever made. Of course, we have the additional teachings of the Book of Mormon to clear it up, and a few scriptures from the Bible before the Day of Pentecost, like the one Vort mentioned. However, it is an interesting question to ponder. WHy did Christ have to wait until He was gone in order to bestow this gift on them? I believe one possible reason was mercy. I believe it was because had both witnesses (Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost) been operative upon man simultaneously, it would have given just cause for condemnation to those who did not believe both witnesses (law of witnesses is 2 or 3 are required). But, with only 1 member of the Godhead acting as witness it gave more room for leniancy and second chances (or third, or fourth, or...).

I think forgiving someone without expectation of anything from them is a work. That the other person does not apologize or seek to recompense makes it that much harder of a work. These works we refer to are always a sacrifice to ourselves for the betterment of another. Oddly enough, one who sacrifices does not consider it a sacrifice, and is only concerned about helping others.

I think Vort found the poll feature. :)

In fact, God used "seeds" (called "he") and Adam "tilling the ground" or earth (called her or mother earth) to get fruit (seed of a kind) to teach him about "seed" and offspring.