Justice

Personally, I'm thankful He did. God has always done, or caused to be done, things that may not be right in one instance, in order to bring about the greatest good for the most people. I do not question or doubt His motives, nor will I volunteer to act as prosecution at His trial.

Awesome video. Thanks for sharing.

In fact, Alma 42 is the best scripture on this: 17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? 18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. 19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin. 21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature? 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice. All of 42: Alma 42

I agree, they did know them. Understanding this is very difficult because you have to put your mind in a place it is not. We understand law also, but we also know the consequences of our actions. Adam and Eve did not fully understand the consequences, namely "death." They were immortal and did not understand the consequences. There's no way for someone immortal to know what it means to die. Just as it is impossible for us to fully realize what the infinite and eternal are as finite beings. In order to be guilty of sin we have to know the law, understand what breaking the law means (or the punishement), and opt for the punishement instead of obeying. It is a choice we make with full knowledge of the consequences. In this mortal life we come to understand death at a fairly young age. We see plants, animals and people die, and have a good idea of what it means. It's like a young child when they are told not to touch a hot stove. They understand what the words mean, but do not fully understand the consequences until they are actually burned. Then, they are in a position to make the choice for themselves to not touch the stove because they do not want to suffer the consequences again. We are in a state of death while mortal; we are dying day by day. Because of Christ this death is overcome. We can choose Him to overcome our spiritual death as well.

"Required" is part I can't answer. I believe it is possible. I believe you may be asked, but I'm not certain all will be asked. Does that make sense?

It has always been amazing to me how people can formulate an entire belief system on the definition of one word... in this case the word "one." Obviously, the word has different meanings. When you base your entire belief system on one of those definitions, you would naturally have to resist the other definitions. I can see that. It's like Isaiah said speaking of our day, "the wisdom of their wise men shall perish." The only way wisdom can perish is if those wise men learn truth. Setting aside a cornerstone belief, where all your other beliefs are hung, is a most difficult thing to ask of you. But, that's exactly what we have to ask. Because, in order for you to see this truth you have to open your mind and open yourself to the possibility that you're wrong. I realize how deeply this may affect you. This is very difficult for people to do, in fact, it is impossible for many. Getting to the bottom of the truth should be your primary goal. Unless you believe you are perfect and have perfect knowledge of all things, you can do this. Take what we're saying to the Lord. Don't take our word for it. Ask Him to enlighten you about this topic. Ask to be shown the truth concerning the nature of God. Then, study and pray, with a completely open mind, and I know you will arrive at the truth. Opening your mind to a new idea that contadicts your own is very difficult, added to the fact that so many of your beliefs are hinged on this one idea, I know how difficult it is. I hope and pray for you, that you might be able to do this. With God all things are possible... even for us to change our human nature. Don't believe it because someone else told you that's the way it is. I would never ask that of anything I told you, and I'm also asking it of things others have told you. Honestly and sincerely take it to the Lord, being willing to accept whatever He tells you.

Are you basing your point on a rock having "being?" Please don't take me as a hater, because I am not. I am a loving and compassionate person, and I have a great amount of compassion for you concerning this matter. I'm going to post a scripture from the New Testament, and I would simply like for you to read it and explain how the Trinitarian view can be possible based on it. Deal? John 17: 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. I can comment on this scripture at so many levels. Jesus clearly is asking the Father for all who believe on His name to be one in the same way (perfectly the same) as He is one with the Father. Please exaplin what Jesus meant by asking for all His followers to be perfect in one, just as He is one with the Father? According to the Trinitarian belief, it would have to mean He is asking for God to become greater than the 3 "beings" He currently subsits of. He wants all followers to become a permament part of God. However, the problem with this belief is that He then asks that they all be with Him where He is. Wouldn't that be a given if they were to become "one" with God the way Trinitarians believe? thekabalist, you're a breath of fresh air in this thread.

It is true that scripture writers often use their memories as a source: Ether 5: 1 And now I, Moroni, have written the words which were commanded me, according to my memory; and I have told you the things which I have sealed up; therefore touch them not in order that ye may translate; for that thing is forbidden you, except by and by it shall be wisdom in God. I would suggest that when one has been enlightened by the spirit concerning a matter it is very difficult to forget. I don't think because they use their memories it means that's where the mistakes come from. In like fashion, I don't think we can assume error because they write events they did not witness in person. The Spirit is fully capable of showing scripture writers what they must write. Also, I believe more scripture writers than we know have had "interpreters" or Urim and Thummim to "show" them past and future events as they have happened and will happen. It's no more illogical to think they can write accurately about the past than they do about the future. I don't believe the Bible is a perfect translation, but I believe it is more accurate and literal than we sometimes think. I believe the Bible creation story just as it outlines. I also believe the Garden of Eden story just as it outlines. I believe if a story is allegorical it generally says so. How do I explain some things that are not science based? Ether 3: 4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea. 5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which looks small unto the understanding of men. I believe (or I know) the brother of Jared literally made and brought stones of some sort to the Lord and the Lord touched them and they lit up, giving off significant light. Can I explain it? Not by science as we know it. But, the Lord is capable of doing all things for the benefit of man. This is a great and important teaching for us to undertstand. The Lord can and does do things for man, according to their faith, that seem impossible to us because of our lack of understanding. He won't do anything detrimental to man, even though we often see His actions as just that. From His perspective, all knowing and all seeing, His actions benefit man, even if we don't see it that way... perhaps especially when we don't see it that way.

Like a global flood? :)

This topic may sound very wierd and very insignificant, so let me add one additional thought that might help you see where I'm going with this. In today's world of mass media and mass marketing, with stores and malls filled with needed things, we can lose sight of the value of tilling and planting to Adam and Eve. Today one works at a job and earns a government approved representation of their time and can use that legal tender in place of goods for exchange to get the necessary item of living. In Adam and Eve's day, if they did not learn and know how seeds work they would die. It was a perfect similitude for seeds also being "offspring" (no more human life upon the earth) and for the "word of God" (no spiritual life without). I believe the Lord has something for me to learn somewhere down this path. He has been leading me for many years with knowledge line upon line. When I read the above quoted verse in Ether yesterday at lunch time it dawned on me that the Lord didn't just command them to have offspring, but to learn to till the earth and provide for themselves now. Having to do this by farming they would be entirely dependant on the Lord for the things they could not control, like for sunlight and rain (and seeds). This provided them perfect examples of what it means to have faith in the Lord. I hope my ramble here has meant something to someone. Sometimes I "talk just to talk." I hope this is not one of those times.

Pam: They are both broken law, but sin is willful with knowledge of consequences and choosing anyway. A general idea is that a transgression would be like driving over the speed limit not knowing you were, while a sin would be driving over the limit while staring at the sign. Let's say you borrow something from a friend and you forget you have it and never return it. Compare that to borrowing something and deciding you like it so you keep it. The result is the same, you keep your friend's item. But, one was not with willful intention while the other is. Other definitions I've heard are when you break a law that is not a moral law for a better purpose, or when you break a law because you are unable to keep. There may be some truth to all of them. I do know that willful rebellion is sin, so I'd say generally that anything unwillful is transgression. Bytor: Mankind would have been lost and fallen forever. The soul of man cannot be destroyed. Separation from God is the death of the soul, with no chance to be redeemed back into His presence.

My first impression is that he could have. And, if He had then the Father's plan would have been permanently frustrated in this eternal round.

What exactly does replenish mean? Yes, I've read the dictionary, and I know what it says. Main Entry: re·plen·ish 1 a : to fill with persons or animals : stock b archaic : to supply fully : perfect c : to fill with inspiration or power : nourish I can't disagree that it's one possible meaning. But, the "re" part of it has always bugged me a bit. It sounds like the original word was meant to mean "re" fill something. If God was saying this to Adam about having offspring, then one can be led to think there were people here before. I wonder how many definitions of words have been derived because people just understood it that way? I guess what I'm asking is what does God mean when He said: Genesis 1: 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. I have always considered replenish here as a continuation of "Be fruitful, and multiply, and..." But, I am re-thinking my position. I'm leaning toward it being the beginning of the next statement ,"and replenish the earth, and subdue it..." I'm seeing it more in line with what the Jaredites did when they landed in the proimised land: Ether 6: 18 And it came to pass that they began to spread upon the face of the land, and to multiply and to till the earth; and they did wax strong in the land. Why is this difference significant? Well, it ties in nicely with something else God says to Adam: Genesis 3: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. If God gave the commandment for Adam to multiply, AND to [till] the earth, think of the significance! Adam and Eve could not have children (seed) in the Garden (for whatever reason). They also did not till the earth because the earth was in a perfect state, nothing died or needed to be "replenished." There was no need for "seed" while in the Garden. They needed to fall in order to do both of those things, which both had to so with "seeds." Consider Eve's words about what they learned from the Fall: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. I've believe for a long time that God used "seeds" as a way to teach them about procreation, but never saw it so literally before. He then used their understanding of "seed" to teach them that they were His offspring: Genesis 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. This takes us to the third way scriptures use "seed," and that is as "the Word of God:" Matthew 13: 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Think of how seeds are realted to the flesh of a fruit. Wonderful symbolism. Any comments before I go any farther?

"Waiting on the Lord" is an interesting phrase. One way to exercise faith is by "waiting on the Lord." This was illustrated very well by something a minister said in the movie "Facing the Giants" (very awesome movie by the way). The coach of the school football team was having a difficult time on and off the field. He was struggling with faith, and the minister told him this story (paraphrased): There were 2 farmers who lived next to each other. As the season for tilling approached they were in the middle of a drought. One farmer waited on the drought to be over, believing any crops he planted would just be ruined and his time wasted. As he was visiting the farmer who lived next door, he found he had tilled and was planting his crops. Puzzled why he would waste his time, money, and effort, he asked the farmer what he was doing. He answered, "Preparing for rain." These are very contrasting examples of faith and what it might mean to "wait on the Lord." If you haven't watched the movie I highly recommend it. It was made by the same people who produced Fireproof with Curt Cameron. The acting isn't up to typical standards, but it's a very good movie for the whole family.

First thing that comes to mind is the preparation that the peoples in the scriptures made before they entered ships. Noah Jaredites Lehi's family There are some interesting studies on their preparations, and some things are similar. If you look close enough you see both physical and spiritual preparations. Check it out, and if you come up with anything I'll see if what you find is similar to what I'm thinking.

I just wanted to get his take on it, :)

To me, murder is killing another person without justifiable cause. What is justifiable cause? I don't think I want to attempt a list, but I think generally it is killing someone accidentally, in self defense, or when you believe you have no other option.

So, He didn't bleed from every pore while on the cross, but He did while in Gethsemane. Doesn't that say something about the suffering He endured while in Gethsemane? When reading the scriptures, I notice that people often look past the events being described and wait to see it in black and white. It's kind of like seeing a plane crash but not believing it until you read it in the paper the next day. Just because it doesn't say He suffered the weight of the world while in Gethsemane doesn't mean He didn't... when it certainly describes this type of suffering. I don't know how much more plain the writers of the Gospels could have been about Christ's suffering in the Garden. Clearly, it was not in anticipation of anything... it was real, immediate, and of such intensity He bled from every pore. Or, more than man can suffer and live. Bleeding from every pore describes a pain much greater than any physical suffering. It's up to you, though. You can continue believing what you have always believed, or you can read those passages and desire to know if there is more. But, keep in mind that we believe there are other scriptures, or other words of the Savior to be read. We have more revelation than the Bible. This other revelation helps us understand passages in the Bible that may be vague, misinterpreted, or removed entirely.

I think parts of the Constitution are inspired, other parts maybe not so. Like, where are the legal ramifications of adultery? In any case, I believe law abviding citizens should be allowed to own guns.

I'm looking forward to the time when PC or lattelady, or any of our other good non-LDS friends can add their input to the discussion. Let's not turn it into a debate about something else, and possibly get it locked. Please feel free to send each other PMs.

How about mine about the Liahona? (post #13 in this thread)

I understand that this is a new idea to a lot of people. It's just one more way to show how needed modern scripture and prophets and apostles are. This person should be cautious in taking someone else's word to be doctrine. I think if anyone really wanted to know the truth of the matter they should study it and pray for the truth to be revealed to them. I would never ask anyone to take my word for it. The problem is that many people really don't want to know the truth, they just want to be right.

My memory is very selective. Did I say VERY? If my wife saw your comment she wouldn't stop laughing until next week. :) Edit: In fact, she just said omagosh a few times when I showed her. She said to tell you it's not too late to put in a new request!

It was Bruce R. McConkie in his last conference talk before he died. I almost have it memorized... titled oddly enough "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane." Finally, on a hill called Calvary—again, it was outside Jerusalem’s walls—while helpless disciples looked on and felt the agonies of near death in their own bodies, the Roman soldiers laid him upon the cross. With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 a.m. to noon. Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony. And truly he was, for while he was hanging on the cross for another three hours, from noon to 3:00 p.m., all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred. And, finally, when the atoning agonies had taken their toll—when the victory had been won, when the Son of God had fulfilled the will of his Father in all things—then he said, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and he voluntarily gave up the ghost. One of my all-time favorite talks. LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Purifying Power of Gethsemane His closing remarks are powerful, especially in light of the fact it was his last address before he died, meaning he passed away within 6 months (I think about 5) from this address. I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears. But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.

In response to the locked thread, Jesus in the Garden, I'd like to move away from the discussion in that thread, and approach the explanation differently. I don't feel I had a chance to adequately express my thoughts. Obviously, I'm speaking directly to lattelady, but to all who read the other thread, this might be a good conclusion. lattlelady, since you titled your thread Jesus in the Garden and then moved forward from there to an event you propose is greater, Jesus on the Cross, I'd like to offer something for you to think about in like manner. So, I made this thread, Jesus on the Cross, and will move forward to an event I believe to be greater. I am in no way trying to reduce or minimize Jesus on the Cross. Please understand that I do not fault you for being so sensitive to this discussion. As you will see, I believe the Cross was in fulfillment of prophecy, and is a necessary part of what allows us the chance to be redeemed. If you consider Jesus' life just as it happened, all the way up until after His death on the cross, and imagine if His resurrection from the dead never happened, that would made the Garden and Cross meaningless. In fact, if any one of the three did not happen, that would make the other 2 meaningless. I will readily admit that Jesus on the Cross is the single darkest hour for mankind. It alone symbolizes the depravity of man more than any other single event. Even above the Garden and His resurrection, Jesus on the Cross symbolizes His ultimate sacrifice for mankind. This is why His death on the cross is spoken of primarily in the scriptures. I propose, and submit for your pondering, that had Christ remained dead, or was not resurrected, then the cross would have had victory over Christ and all those who choose to follow Him. But, because Christ rose above the cross and overcame death, His resurrection and return to life; immortal, perfect, pure, and holy, the cross is forever struck into insignificance. This is the primary reason why we typically like to think about the living Christ and not the Christ hanging on the cross about to die, or dead. I believe it took all three, the Garden, the Cross, and the Resurrection for the plan and purpose of God to be fulfilled. Christ atoned for the sins of mankind, and without all 3 of these mentioned, man was lost and fallen forever. Matthew 26: 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. We believe Jesus suffered more than it is possible for man to suffer and live. Since He died on the cross, the suffering had to be another suffering, one which He lived through, or overcame. Mosiah 3: 7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. Mark 14: 32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. 33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; 34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. Luke 22: 43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Christ shed His blood, but not like you and I when we bleed. If we loose enough blood we die. Christ did not. He remained alive to suffer an eternal weight; the weight of perfect justice for all broken law. Even the scriptures in the New Testament do not say His anguish in the Garden was in anticipation of the cross. That is something you have to read into the text, almost denying the real suffering all the Gospels mention took place in the Garden. This agony was real; so real, in fact, that an angel appeared to strengthen Him, something that did not happen while He was on the cross. Again, I say that if the physical suffering He endured while on the cross was the pinnacle of His suffering, then His suffering was no different than thousands of other men who died in the same manner. In fact, most men who were crucified never made it past the 39 lashes. There was more to His suffering, and it is clearly alluded to in the New Testament. His suffering was one of spirit (or soul), not of the physical body, one we cannot even possibly begin to fathom. Christ's suffering in Gethsemane, where He was pressed with the weight of all sin (wine press), His death upon the cruel cross at Golgotha, and in the garden tomb where the stone that rolled away tells of the Savior's resurrection, were ALL needed for Christ to complete the work His Father gave Him, and complete the atonement for mankind. And, just as His suffering in Gethsemane was meaningless without His death on the cross, His death on the cross was meaningless without His resurrection 3 days later. I know this to be true. I hope you read this with a sincere desire to understand what I'm trying to say. It's not that we are trying to reduce your reverence for what Christ did for you on the cross, we are trying to show you that He did far more for you than just die for you on the cross. He also suffered so sorely that He bled from every pore, and after He died for you on the cross, He overcame death and is now able to pass the resurrection on to you.