Vort

Isn't large print in a bigger book, so the page count is the same? If not -- normal-sized print.

Martin Harris was given a translation of the Book of Lehi on 116 pages of foolscap, which he lost or had stolen from him. If the Book of Lehi existed and were printed in our Book of Mormon, approximately (within say 25%) how many printed pages would it occupy?

I do not understand your confusion on this point. Do you not agree that the lost 116 pages of manuscript were Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Mormon narrative preceding Benjamin? W of M 3: "...after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake..." This makes a few things clear: Mormon was making his abridgment before inserting the Small Plates.This abridgment was taken from Nephi's "plates", i.e. the Large Plates.The abridgment he had made covered the period of time up until king Benjamin.So if you don't think a translation that was called "the book of Lehi" and that explicitly covered a period up to the time of king Benjamin was in fact a history "included from Lehi to king Benjamin" -- that is, if you "see no logic or evidence of this" -- then I fear our reading of the source material is so widely divergent that conversation will be difficult if not impossible.

Don't worry. :)

You may well be right about my needing "to really read Words of Mormon for the first time", Justice. But your condescension in attempting to show me the truth does not leave me feeling very convinced. Until the Spirit or someone else can show me a better reading that I have already made, I'll just stick with my own exegesis.

Your gloss is not very well supported, Justice. It's chronologically after almost everything until the Book of Moroni, save a few chapters in Mormon. Until now, yes. Two points: He means precisely what he said: After he had abridged from Lehi until Benjamin, he went looking for the Small Plates.He did not "happen upon" the Small Plates; he went looking for them, because he knew they existed. Either he had read them before, or else he knew about them, probably from their being mentioned by Nephi in his Large Plates. Please note: He searched among the records to find the Small Plates. Apparently, he knew what he was looking for. No, Justice. Not the plates he was writing in; the plates he was talking about. Of course he did not tack them on the end. He was abridging the plates chronologically, so after reaching the reign of Benjamin, he searched until he found this account (the Small Plates), and then transcribed (or else physically placed) them in his abridgment. No, that's not clear at all. Rather, what is clear is that he felt the Small Plates should be included, in their entirety, in his abridged compilation. There is no sense of preference. Yes. That is, he finishes his record of the early Nephite history, up until the Nephites left the land of Nephi under Mosiah (I) and joined with the Mulekites, with Nephi's record of the Small Plates. You are reading that into Mormon's words. He says nothing about writing on the Small Plates. The bolded portion above is wrong. There is no indication that he is writing on the Small Plates. It just is not there. This part you have quoted is why I personally believe Mormon physically inserted the Small Plates into his abridgment rather than transcribing them. But reading it as a transcription is, I think, a reasonable reading of the text. Reading it as Mormon writing on the Small Plates is a strained and unlikely reading, in my view. Justice, many generations of faithful Latter-day Saints have read and understood these things. We are not the first.

The "these" and the "this" imply that it could be the Small Plates on which Mormon is writing at the time Only if you understand the antecedent to "these" and "this" to be "the set of plates upon which I am presently writing" -- and even then, if he were transcribing the Small Plates into his abridgment, that still would not indicate him writing on the Small Plates themselves. I think a far more natural understanding of the antecedent is "the account that you have just finished reading, starting with where my abridgment left off after the Book of Lehi."

If Jesus Christ sang, him. Otherwise, I suppose Mozart, as long as it were really Mozart and not someone else playing his music. Or maybe my dad. No one springs to mind. Possibly Weird Al. yes, I'd probably pay to see him. Possibly Linkin Park. Possibly Metallica...maybe not. Possibly Boston. Possibly the Beach Boys. Okay, and as Carl reminds me, possibly Led Zeppelin.

Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion, but it appears to be counterfactual. On the contrary, one of two things appears to be the case: Mormon transcribed the small plates verbatim into his abridgment.Mormon physically inserted the small plates into his abridgment, then continued with the effort.Personally, I vote for #2. But in either case, Mormon didn't write on the Small Plates, which Amaleki makes clear "were full" (Omni 30).

You two answer each other's questions too darn fast. I threatened earlier this morning to leave off for work, which I guess I'm going to do now.

Hey, it's First Presidency level! Doncha love how I asked about the Nephite Twelve at the "Quorum of Twelve" level? I'm so proud! Or I would be if I weren't so humble.

Done. Well, more or less.

Subjective? Yes, but since Mormon gives Moroni all the press, I think he's the clear winner. Actually, if there is any competition to Moroni for "greatest Nephite general", I'd say that honor would probably go to Mormon himself. Hmmm...I'd say it starts with a "ch" and ends with an "er" and rhymes with "CHEATER!!" But of course, I would never say such a thing...:) That's three (if by "Lamoni's kingdom" you mean his household, including Amulek). But this one is specially formulated for the sleepy high priests among us; the rest of us need not answer if we don't want to. :) Ooh, so close, just missing one... Good guess, but sorry. The judges began to reign about 91 or 92 BC, and that reign continued until the Nephite government was destroyed in about AD 30. So the answer is around 121 years. The index? The INDEX?! Pshaw. Very good guesses. Alma has only 63 chapters, Helaman has 16, 3 Nephi has 30, and Ether has 15. Other than that, you're spot on. I can't answer this without looking it up. Yes, that's my answer, too. So the correct answer is: Nowhere.

BZZZZ! It says "Helaman and his brethren", but does not mention his sons. Oooooooh... (Talking about my answer, not Pam's.)

I believe Helaman's sons Nephi and Lehi were mentioned in that context.

I don't know whether to feel complimented or insulted. I expect the latter, but I'll choose the former. :)

Yes, but only after you've taken the quiz "for credit". :)

The fun "Book of Mormon trivia" thread in the General forum inspired me to make up this quiz. How far can you get? (Open disclosure: Even though I wrote the quiz, I can only answer through 1Q70.) Sunbeam level: Nephi was the first prophet who wrote in the Book of Mormon. Who was Nephi's daddy? CTR level: Who was Nephi's mama? Valiant level: Name Nephi's three older brothers. Beehives/Deacons level: Name the most famous captain in Nephite military history. MIA Maids/Teachers level: How long did the darkness last that covered the Nephites after the destructions that took place at Jesus' crucifixion? Laurels/Priests level: Name the mountain moved by the brother of Jared. RS/Elders level: Who was the last person to write on the Small Plates of Nephi? Special High Priest question: Name at least five instances when Lehi's descendants fell unconscious in response to divine interactions or miracles. Extra 10 minutes of nap time given during high priest group meeting for naming eight or more instances. Patriarchs level: Name the three sons of Alma the younger. Third Quorum of Seventy level: Tell within ten years how long the Nephites' reign of judges lasted. Second Quorum of Seventy level: How many times, and in what contexts, is the word "snow" mentioned in the Book of Mormon? First Quorum of Seventy level: Tell how many chapters are in each book of the Book of Mormon (from memory). Quorum of Twelve level: The twelve Nephite disciples functioned as virtual apostles to the Nephite people. Name them (from memory). First Presidency level: In how many verses is Jesus Christ mentioned, by name or by reference, in the Book of Mormon? EXTRA BONUS QUESTION (inspired by Moksha): Where in the Book of Mormon is Zelph mentioned?

Yes, I'm waiting for someone else to answer so I don't piggy up all the questions for myself, like that obnoxious guy in Gospel Doctrine who keeps raising his hand. Who is most definitely not me.

That would be "the valley which is northward" of Moriancumr's location at the time the Lord spoke with him. We may assume it was somewhere in Mesopotamia. (We may also assume it was somewhere in Antarctica, I suppose. There are no limits to what we may assume.)

That's quite beautiful. Thanks, Jamie.

Lehi Lemuel Jacob Alma (in the Vulgate :)) Samuel Jesus :)

You know, on second thought, the painting is wrong in its depiction of the timeline. Note that no one has bothered even to clean up the debris from the earthquakes. Seems unlikely.

You're right, of course. Fanciful elements notwithstanding, the painting shows nothing that must necessarily be interpreted as defying the timeline. I was just being snarky. :)

Since Mormon says "I will show you", and since the only thing he shows is Christ's appearance among those who survived the "great and marvelous changes" (3 Nephi 11:1), that strongly suggests he is referring to those whose lives were spared, not those who were merely spared the inconvenience of earthquakes. At least to my ears. Ymmv.