Vort

It comes down to this: Could any plan save us and give us a chance for exaltation better than the Father's? Yes / No If you answer Yes, then you are saying that either: God is not all-knowing, since he didn't know which was the most efficient plan to save his children.God is not perfectly loving, since he intentionally chose a sub-optimal plan that would not save and/or exalt as many of his children as another plan.Both of the above.If you reject the above, then clearly the answer to the question is "No". Which means that Satan lied. He did not, in fact, have any "plan of salvation" in competition with the Father. It is worth noting that the scriptures say nothing of Satan claiming to have "another plan". Rather, Satan tried to usurp Jehovah's role as the Christ, and in doing so modified the Father's plan to bring glory to himself (Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. - Moses 4:1). I would be interested to see your scriptural justification for this view. Never heard of "Gladiator folks", but since many here avoid R-rated movies (myself included), you may have picked an example that won't be meaningful to them.

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, Cydonia.

Sure, okay, I agree. His "plan", such as it was, was to destroy the agency of man. That was Satan's "plan". But to suggest that he had an actual "plan" in place of the Father's plan is absurd. He had no plan; he simply wished for the Father's glory and to usurp his position. He wished to destroy the agency of man. If that constitutes "a plan", then I agree, Satan had "a plan".

None is so blind as he who will not see, or so deaf as he who will not hear.

It only took me a trifling 25+ times reading the Book of Mormon to spot the connections. Some of us are just preternaturally gifted in these areas.

Satan had no plan. He lied. He sought to deceive, and he succeeded.

Jesus seems not to agree with your theory: "[The devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44) "And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning." (D&C 93:25) You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding. Seriously. You cannot possibly mean this.

Nephi either did not write in his record after finishing 2 Nephi, or else he wrote it in the large plates, which were redacted by Mormon. The 116 lost pages (or Book of Lehi) may possibly have named the kings between Nephi and Mosiah I, but alas, they have been lost and are not likely to be coming back any time soon.

Jacob 1:1-3 ...Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven. And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history of this people which are called the people of Nephi. For he said that the history of his people should be engraven upon his other plates [that is, upon the large plates of Nephi], and that I should preserve these plates [that is, the small plates of Nephi] and hand them down unto my seed, from generation to generation. Note that Jacob explicitly mentions being given charge of the small plates, but does not mention being given charge of the large plates -- despite talking about those plates. Clearly, Jacob was given the small plates, but it appears he was not given the large plates. Who was? Many generations later, a descendant of Jacob who received the plates (Amaleki) wrote: Omni 25 And it came to pass that I began to be old; and, having no seed, and knowing king Benjamin to be a just man before the Lord, wherefore, I shall deliver up these plates unto him... He has no seed, and apparently no surviving brother or other male relatives, so he cannot continue to fulfill Nephi's commandment to Jacob to keep the small plates. So he gives them to -- the prophet? No. He gives them to the king, because he knows him to be "a just man before the Lord". But why the king instead of some ecclesiastical authority? Two possibilities spring to mind: There was no regularly constituted ecclesiastical authority; or, equivalently, the king functioned as the leader of the Church.The king had the other records (large plates of Nephi), so he was the logical choice.That #2 is the case is quickly established, as for example in Words of Mormon 10: Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin. Anyway, that's my take on the matter.

Bingo. And since we don't know who the king following Nephi was (Jacob says only "a man"), the best answer is probably "a man other than Jacob". Well, Mahone's and Pam's are probably the best answer, but you know what I mean.

With Netflix, it's as near as your mail slot, my friend. Just add "Seven-Year Itch".

Yes it does. Read the whole thread.??? Are you saying that scriptural truth is established by the arguments contained in this thread?

D&C 21:4-5 "Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; for his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith." Our prophets, those who lead the Church, have made it clear through countless sermons and through interview guidelines exactly what the minimum expectations are. The fact that those teachings have not been collected and included as a section in the Doctrine and Covenants is irrelevant. We have been given revelatory guidance through our prophets.

Cydonia, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. We are not "required" to follow any of the commandments, in the sense of being constrained. We are allowed to choose for ourselves. Do you want to be a member of the kingdom of God, in full fellowship with the Saints? Then follow the current teachings on the Word of Wisdom. Do you not care about such things? Then follow whatever blows your skirt up.

Which version? This is not one we sing in LDS services (obviously -- it's a prayer to Mary), but it is a personal favorite and a bit of a guilty pleasure. I first learned to love this as a song from Pavarotti's rendition of Schubert's version*. Some years later, I totally fell in love with . I have since discovered , which is quite pretty.As a side "benefit", if you want to call it that, to loving this song, I have memorized the Latin version of the Catholic prayer Ave Maria**. Yay. * The Mormon Tabernacle Choir actually did perform Schubert's Ave Maria, but with the words changed and with the title Heavenly Father. ** The prayer is based mainly on Gabriel's "Annunciation" visit to Mary: "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." If you know any Latin at all, even if (like mine) it's pretty weak, you can easily follow the prayer. Very, very Catholic indeed, what with supplicating "Holy Mary, God's mother", to "pray for us now and at the time of our death": Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus. Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro nobis nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen. (The mater Dei part isn't in the song. You just have to remember it :).)

"Onward Christian Soldiers" is sung in English-speaking LDS congregations. Don't recognize any of the others. A hymn set to "Danny Boy"? Strange. But no more so, I suppose, than a hymn set to "Scotland the Brave". D&C scripture mastery, to the tune of "Scotland the Brave/Hail to the Prophet": Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, And the prophecies and promises which are in them shall All be fulfilled. What I, the Lord, have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself. And though the heavens and the earth pass away My word shall not pass away, But shall all be fulfilled, Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, It is the same. -D&C 1:37-38

Nope, sorry. Anyone else?

My friend, Here, in this life, we have no abiding kingdom (as Hugh Nibley was fond of saying). All is dust and vanity. When you depend upon God, as you have been trying to do, you do not build up treasures on earth, "where moth and rust doth corrupt", but for the eternities. That does not mean that you can't enjoy the blessings of eternity right now. You can. But you need to understand what our life is for, and what it means to join God's kingdom. An early LDS poet, Eliza Snow, wrote the following: When the apostle Peter wrote to the Saints in Asia Minor, he was addressing men and women who were being threatened with death for being Christians. His advice was telling: You are passing through trials for a reason: God wants to make of you a man fit to rule in the eternities, fit to endow with power from on high, fit to be a true husband to a woman and a true father to children. Now is the time to learn to be strong! Don't despair! We're all on the journey with you. Let your quorum brothers and ward family help you on that journey. Immerse yourself in the Church, and you are likely to find the way easier -- not because the trials have gotten easier, but because you have become stronger, and because you have brothers and sisters to help share the burden.

(Medium difficulty) To whom did Nephi (son of Lehi) bequeath the large plates?

Don't know if you were talking about me or not, but when I said "revelations" in my first post, I was referring to revelations as occurrences, not to the book of the Revelation of John, which I referred to later (also as the Apocalypse).

Very slight off-topic remark: Has anyone else noticed how vastly improved the Watchtower's production quality has gotten over the decades? Both the layout and the content have improved so much that it's almost not recognizable as the same pamphlet we used to get in the 1980s. Apropos of absolutely nothing; just saw PC's comment and thought I'd mention it.

The fact that we are told that we needed to be born into mortality, experience things here, and make covenants in order to return back to the Father's presence and inherit all that he hath, and yet that Jehovah (premortal Jesus), our spiritual "older brother" and co-created spirit child of God, was himself God and a member of the Godhead, strongly implies that there is key information that we have not been given. If you consider unrevealed questions such as the nature of the Holy Ghost, it quickly becomes clear that we have been given only just enough knowledge to light our path a step ahead. If we seek, we will find and be given more; but until the Church as a whole receives that knowledge revealed through the President of the Church, it will remain safely hidden with those few who have asked and qualified themselves to receive the answer.

My Heavenly Father Loves Me Mary's Lullaby The Wint'ry Day, Descending to Its Close (select "Words and music" and click on the Play button) Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words (select "Words and music" and click on the Play button) For All the Saints Edit: Good idea, Moksha.

That's more of an anti-mission, Dravin.

THE FOURFOLD MISSION OF THE CHURCH as announced by the Relief Society General Presidency: Proclaim the gospelPerfect the SaintsRedeem the deadProvide refreshments