richlittell

Serving Coffee? Personal choice. I'm the only LDS in my family. I have enough issues that "separate" me from my family. I tried the hard-line approach in my first few years and nearly lost everyone. It took me a few years to realize that, at least for my personal situation, I was not really "being an example" to my family. I needed to show love. I got off my high horse and found some middling ground and believe that my family respects my religion more now. It is a compliment to them, and actual gesture of love, for me to go out of my way to offer them coffee, because in doing so, it is a gesture that I am thinking of them, not myself and my "religion." Let me see, now who was it that dined with the sinners? Oh yeah, that really great guy after whom our church is named. I'm sure there were enough "offenses" in those situations to have kept Him away, if he chose, but he looked beyond the trite things to the greater needs. "The whole need no physician." I think there's a limit to being a separate people and being a haughty people so that we are no better than the Pharisees and Sadducees. It's tough to know where that line is, so let's leave some of these issues like this up to personal choice, we have been given no specific counsel on such things.

This subjec is a bit dated, but I just thought I'd chime in on the "reading" the BOM theme here. Last summer, I felt I was falling way behind in my scripture studies and habits, so I took up the 60 day challenge for myself. It was an awesome experience, it got me back into regular scripture reading/study, and it was a whole different experience from the usual study, ponder, pray. Not that I didn't ponder or pray, but I didn't do cross-references and such, and I certainly pondered and prayed but the emphasis was on reading. I know that in one of the more recent conferences we were counselled that we shouldn't just read but that we should study, ponder, and pray, and of course this is true, but I don't think they meant you could NEVER just read the scriptures. Have you ever just picked up the Bible or BOM and said to yourself, okay for the next couple months I"m just gonna' kick back on the sofa, kick my legs up and read my scriptures casually just like a good old novel? It's a unique experience and gives one a good appreciation of the scriptures, I think, a more intimate feeling. I think the prophets have counselled us to study, ponder, and pray so that we don't develop "rote" and meaningless reading habits in the same way we might develop "rote" and meaningless prayer. That doesn't mean we can't have occasional times where just reading is our objective--so long as our heart is into it. cheers

There is more to keeping the Sabbath day holy than just attending services. People all over the world can't make it to services every Sunday but do what they can in other ways, which means as a father, administering the sacrament if you have the priesthood (with permission from the Bishop). This is not to make excuses, it means that everyone's situation is different. Find the nearest ward, double-check with the Bishop or Stake president to make sure it is the nearest ward/branch to where you live. Go to church as often as you can and consult the Bishop of your area to get his opinion on your situation and how often you should be attending, most Bishops are understandable about these things, but they will certainly give you "fatherly" advice if they feel you aren't really making your best efforts. Quit making excuses. Either you are "drawn" to the church, as you say, or you weren't. Quit waffling. We all have whining kids, our own set of troubles and so forth, just like you. But we made our decision. You make yours. (written in the tone of fatherly love, hope you take it that way :) )

Going to your home ward might be just what you need. I'm sure Heavenly Father would rather see you in your home church than to become inactive because you don't like your own ward. Sometimes, when we have deep needs, we have to decide these things for ourselves. Just make sure you do it with sincere prayer and not as some excuse to take the easy way out, do it with a purpose of building up your spirituality so that you'll be strong enough to attend any ward anywhere in the world, that should be your goal, on any given Sabbath day.

Hmmm, said in jest but maybe not far off the mark. I don't know about "pairs" only, as this would put those like Abraham and Brigham Young in a bad spot come the next life. But what if indeed male and female entities are pre-intelligences that come from the same intelligence base? Then neither would one be whole without the other. And just like electrons knocked off of atoms, will not rest till they find another compatible nucleus. Well, even if not true, it makes an interesting analogy (and might shed light upon the love/hate relationship between the sexes, that we seem to "need" each other even if we can't "understand" each other )

In response: I think the Savior trumps "the Prophet Seer and Revelator Harold B Lee" on this one. If this man were born blind, then the only sin he could have committed would have been in the pre-mortal existence--and Christ says straightforward, this man did not sin. It is quite obvious that it is wrong to conclude that everyone who is born with any sort of disadvantage, be it physical, mental, nationality or otherwise is born so solely as a means of punishment. --However, I will not argue that it may be so in some cases. Every individual will be different. My experiences with the handicapped that I have had contact with is that they are wonderful, amazing and special spirits.

I have been where you are before (sorta'). I don't know your situation, but for me, it was not really church or the people that were the problem, it was things in my own life that was the problem. Just keep going, if you drop out, your life will only get darker and darker (maybe not at first, at first you'll feel relieved if you stop, but that won't last forever). Darkness is an awful state to be in-- I've been there -- I know. Nevertheless, you are free to choose. p.s. Sometimes people aren't trying to be "better" than other people, they have their own struggles too, but when you are asked to give a talk or teach a lesson, what is one supposed to do? Talk about all the darkness in their lives? Tell about how the gospel sucks? I don't think so. True, there are a few who may be self-righteous, but most really are just trying to do their best as they think is expected of them by Heavenly Father on His Sabbath day.

I agree with Rameumpton, the real issue here is not who is right or wrong (I think many here, having your side of the story, would see things much the same as you). The real issue is resolution, and since there seems to be a stalemate, you must get a third party involved here, your Elder's Quorum President, a Relief Society sister, or more especially the Bishop. You both need to layout your cards before this (these) parties. It will help your wife if she sees other people understand your point of view, that it is just not you (and, of course, you might get an insight or two.) good luck

Let us know how things are going with you (keep us updated, I mean). :)

Just read your conversations with Katie. Thank you so much for posting those, I was very touched. And thank you for being honest about being gay. You have such courage to share that. You must be very concerned about having to "face the truth" of the gospel, as I can tell that is one thing that you are struggling with. If you accept the Book of Mormon and it's teachings as true, then you will be held accountable, and that scares you. I know, it scared me to and I almost ran away from it. I am not gay, but I did have some very serious habitual sins along those same lines, but I knew in my heart the gospel was true and so I just took the missionary discussions and joined the church. It wasn't easy, and those old feelings and habits were a constant battle for me for a long time, but I knew, even if sometimes I fell, that Heavenly Father loved me for always getting back up and trying again and again. I decided that I wanted to love my Jesus, my true Christ, more than anything... I'm still working on it, but my love for Him is always growing. Some people, like Paul in the Bible and Alma the younger, convert instantly and almost totally, some, however, take a little longer and have more struggles. I hope you are like Alma the younger, but no matter what, you are a child of God and all things are possible by Him and through his son, Jesus Christ. Good luck, and thanks so much for sharing your conversation with us! :)

Of course we have to mention the mothers of the 2000 stripling warriors!

duct tape. I use it to fix everything. Or maybe a stapler.

I think you are so brave for even trying at all. A lot of women would have bitter feelings coming out of the situation you have. I know some personally who gave up on the church and the lord. The saddest part is, that because of their personal choices (free agency), the children have grown up without any gospel influence and are really not where they should be right now. Keep hanging in there, for yourself and your children. I've been going to a ward for six years and I and only one other brother speak English. So I basically sit through meetings not knowing anything, and I have no friends or social life here. I asked the missionaries to stop translating because I just got tired of having someone talk into my ear for three hours every Sunday for so many years. I just sit there and read my scriptures or some other material. I go for myself and know the Lord loves me. Your situation is more difficult, I know, but just hang in there! I wish I had some really great words of wisdom, but I don't. Just keep praying and reading your scriptures.

Go get 'em tiger! growwl.

Well, I guess she did make a significant contribution, if she hadn't chased Joseph out of house and home the whole story of Joseph would have been different and no one would have been around to save Egypt and Israel from famine.

Of course I could look it up for myself, but that would make the discussion boring. What do we know about the daughters of Noah? It's been awhile since I read the details of that story.

Yes, I had checked that out. It's good for current membership. I was just curious if anyone had ever estimated how many people have joined the church in this dispensation. I think that would be a difficult figure to calculate.

The Articles of Faith are part of our Standard Works which are (from the official LDS newsroom): "This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." Neither one or the other of our Standard Works supersede the other but have equal weight in bringing clarification to our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Where one work is found wanting, another supplements, where some minor point of one could introduce confusion, all of the works taken together as a whole can put such a point into perspective. We put a lot of stock in the Articles of faith. We put a lot of stock in the Bible. We put a lot of stock in the Book of Mormon. We put a lot of stock in the Pearl of Great Price. We put a lot of stock in the Doctrine and Covenants. Please do not be so presumptuous as to speak for me or any other LDS or group of which you are not affiliated and have no knowledge. I apologize ahead of time, but I am offended by this. The view expressed is clearly NOT of the minority, but of the greatest majority.Also: We use the king James Version of the Bible. By the fall of Adam, all men became subject to sin, and as the natural man, which we are, is an enemy to God, we are all sinners who have passed the age of accountability. But we are punished for our OWN sins, not for Adam's. If we were punished for Adam's sin, then we would all be born in sin, which supposes that if children die, they must therefore go to hell. This is contrary to the doctrine of Christ which, in the Book of Mormon, Moroni 8 says: All children who die before the age of accountability need not repent, nor do they need baptism, for they are spotless before God through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Therefore, as we are not born with Adam's sins upon us, we are only held accountable for our own sins, and not Adam's transgression. According to the words of Christ, we are born into this world innocent. The fall of Adam resulted in the corruption of all things of both man and the earth, and introduced sin into the world that all men might gain knowledge and experience and be tried to see if they will do whatsoever thing God has commanded them, so that we might be held accountable for our own sins, and not Adam's transgression.

Using the term "corruption" might offend some of our Catholic friends, but I agree with what you say, that Luther saw what to him were some discrepencies between the established church of his era and what he believed religion to be. Most importantly, I do indeed believe he was inspired. He helped move the work forward (from an LDS perspective) but his was still an errant, or incomplete, doctrine. My point was, that this inability to understand or agree on the core principles of a religion led to a schism in the established church of that era (though it was over interpretation rather than a misunderstanding of what comprised canon). If we didn't have a "canon," it would be so easy for people, most especially LDS, to believe that the Gospel discourses, Mormon Doctrine and other such works carried as much weight as the Scriptures, official declarations and proclamations and the Articles of Faith. Since there are some discrepancies between these works, we could end up with all sorts of schisms, just look at how we as LDS debate things here on this website. I believe it is our canon, and the direction of our living prophets, that keep us all anchored and bound in brotherhood and sisterhood and on the right path to salvation. It's easy for us to see now, since our canon has been defined for us by our leaders, but if we had never had any official canon and no knowledge of such, how would each of us decide how to weigh in on all the talks and works ever put forth by the leaders of our church? Would the works comprising the D&C have as much weight as those of the J.of Discourses? Where would the Pearl of Great Price fit in? and so forth and so on. If not for an official "open canon" we all might be of one the Church of Jesus Christ of Brigham Young, and of the other the Church of Jesus Christ of Bruce R. McKonkie. (I like both these men, so that is not a discredit to their names, thoughts and works, just an example).

Although we may not be on the same page as some protestants who believe "once saved always saved" I think we can agree with other faiths on some points. 1. No person can gain salvation by their works alone. No person, by themselves, "merits" salvation even by righteous living. 2. Grace is insufficient alone. Christ invites all persons to come to him, but he cannot force any one to do so. 3. Grace is sufficient only for those who come to Christ (and some might agree "work out their salvation"). How we differ: There are two salvations: temporal, spiritual 1. Temporal - Salvation of the body, immortality; a free gift, by grace, to all humankind. 2. Spiritual - Salvation of the soul in the highest Kingdom of God, namely, exaltation. Coming to Christ refers to spiritual salvation and means receiving the proper ordinances (such as baptism and temple endowments) and repentance, and a constant working out of our salvation. God requires our best efforts amid our bouts with our weaknesses, nothing more nor less than this.

I think we all could try a little harder to stay on topic in respect to the original poster, at least in the beginning. Ever notice how nearly all posts seem to merge into a rehash of the same old generic topics and lose sight of the original question and the concerns of the original poster? To shadowhunter. You most certainly may believe in only ONE God of the universe. For me, that means God, our heavenly Father. Since the initial question/post was initiated by an investigator who is considering baptism, I think it is very important that he/she understand that according to LDS doctrine God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate personages, as the example was given by Hemi in the baptism of Christ, and of Bytor, in Joseph Smith's Vision. An investigator must ask and answer for him/herself: was Joseph Smith a prophet of God? Was his vision in the grove a true account? Did he indeed see God the Father, and Jesus Christ his son as two separate personages?

I think the information you quoted was excellent.

sleep

Hey, does anyone know how many members have joined our church (LDS) from the time of it's inception? Is that statistic available?

Strange indeed! Anyone can join the church. Maybe the nature of your disability is of concern. Is it mental? If it's only physical that should not be a problem. Maybe members in your ward are just not familiar with helping people with disabilities or something. But if you feel you have a testimony, insist on Baptism until you get some clear answers. There are circumstances where a physical disability accompanied by a mental one might forego the need for a baptism, but even then, just like little children, ALL are welcome into God's Church (though I think that this is not your situation). If yours is only an attendance problem, I can't understand why you can't get baptized. but it is hard for us to know of the particulars of your situation. I know the Aaronic Priesthood used to take sacrament to a disabled elderly lady every Sunday in my ward. Just keep talking with your Bishop until you clear up any unresolved issues.