bmy-

The earth is billions of years old.. dinosaur bones are not.

Speaking of binding doctrine.. no. If speaking about the general congregation of the Church.. yes. Just listen at mormon funerals.

The 1st law is still in place.. and that the net energy of our (multi?) universe is the same as it has been for the last 13 billion years. There's nothing ex-nihilo about particles appearing to pop in and out of existence. They come from somewhere. Creation itself was not ex-nihilo.

You're at the meat market (YSA)... you might as well shop around. It's something you'll have to conquer. I assume it's much easier for you to be social online.. so you could chat with people via social networking sites like facebook.

Sunday night football.. specifically the Saints , movies, video games, board games, going to the gym, being lazy, etc. My typical sunday activities.

Have you considered the idea.. that God made us the most 'evil' world? Also.. if we have the most 'evil'.. it would stand to reason that we are capable of the most 'good'. The most 'potential' so to speak. The rest of your post is speculation.. which i'm admittedly fond of (speculation itself). But.. I think our scriptures make it clear that all of those created in the image of God are sinners. If there are indeed celestial worlds under our Fathers domain -- it's because they have passed through their judgements accordingly and not because they have (or had) 'superior faith'.

"The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power -- to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious -- in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again." (KFD) If he is the savior of those worlds as well as ours.. perhaps he had to pay the same price multiple times. Perhaps

How about.. letting her date quality boys.. instead of just mormon boys?

None that i'm aware of. People can't accept the fact that such a though could from inside of them so it's much easier to blame it on someone else. The overwhelming majority of thoughts come from ourselves.. and that's important to remember.

This is exactly what Brigham mentioned in response to the statements by BRM. What is your definition of progression? I'll give you a basic example.. say God is only progressing (like BMR says..) by glory being added to his own through his children. Does God know what it is like to have more glory? Or does he learn what that experience is like.. by experiencing it? You see.. He does learn.

Absolutely this. We hope you come back pansy.. just because people like myself come off arrogant at times.. it's largely because this is an internet forum and I can express my views without damaging long-term relationships. Take your break.. enjoy it.. and then come back. You do good for people whether all of us agree with your views or not.

I have no problem with this. I mentioned it earlier in the thread. They'll never be able to overtake the people who got the headstart (provided that they do not lose their glory). They'll always be behind. People (including those with authority) seem firm in their belief that there is no progression between kingdoms -- but they also seem confident that there is eternal progression regardless of kingdom. Does that mean the kingdom grows as they grow? Or is there a point.. where eternal progression stops? I do not believe that time will ever come. God is still learning, progressing, and growing.. and he seems to be pretty high up the ladder of exaltation.

You see.. there's so much more than doctrine. If you think our scriptures contain everything we will need to know in the future.. that's silly. It simply contains what we need now. I speak for myself and myself alone.. when I say that progression through kingdoms is possible. That's it. Nothing more. We're all free to agree or disagree.. Shades of gray my friends.. shades of gray. I try to stay away from absolutes as often as possible. Eternity.. is a funny thing. You can't place a number of years on it. Remembering eternity.. is well.. alot like holding an infinite amount of anything in your hands. Can it be done? That's just my take though.. I think that's why they call it an eternity.

As far as i'm aware records are not sent to Salt Lake.. at least not always. I had to fill out my papers more than once because they got lost.

Use your brain. Do you love her? Does she love you? Can you support her? Do you want to be with her forever? If yes.. I doubt God wants you to pass that up.

I understand that. So you believe that once we die.. we'll remember eternity? Think back to your infant years.. can you remember them? You shouldn't be able to (i'm sure there are exceptions). Why is that? You were alive yet not capable of recognizing that you were alive. I suppose a definition of conscious is in order.. I should have defined it long ago. It's simply.. being aware that you are aware. It probably fits better under 'sentience' but for the sake of discussion we'll roll with consciousness. I have already said that we had no beginning (which is completely in line with doctrine).. I said that we could consider the moment we are aware of our awareness as our "beginning".

I completely understand. To me.. it's not so much the teachings. It's the culture. Which parts do you struggle with specifically? I've made a point to tell nobody (excluding Bishops and close ones of course) my problems.

If by the ham sandwich example you mean that.. it's not a ham sandwich unless it meets certain requirements like bread and ham.. then yeah -- that works. We are co-eternal with God. Did he have a beginning? We have already met God. We sat at his feet in the pre-existence and learned from him. He sent us out into the world (to school) so that we could learn, grow, and progress.. It's not doctrine at all.. it's reality. There is a point in time where we realized that we are conscious -- there must be one -- because I cannot recollect a time where I did not exist. Can you? Again.. if progression is not the ultimate goal -- who did God prepare to meet? You see.. my idea answers this question, yours does not. Yours requires a previous event.. mine does not. Am I saying that progression is possible without God? You betcha. (At the very least that it was possible. We could have entered into a new era where that has changed) We do not know the higher truths yet. That also is undeniable. Our progression does not end in the Celestial Kingdom by any means.. there is much more that comes after that. No, you are the mistaken one.. if our doctrine is correct then we are co-eternal with God. This life had no beginning and it shall have no end. Mind boggling as that is.. We have already met God. We're preparing ourselves for exaltation. And the goal is exaltation. For example: Part of the plan of salvation outlines that what we learn here goes with us beyond mortality. The more you learn here.. the better off you will be then. The more you learn here.. the less you learn there, the faster your 'exaltation'. Exaltation is not just the press of a button. Besides -- I said 'standards' -- as in dress codes, etc. That is your personal idea, and it is wrong. Progression leads to exaltation.. which is both our goal and Heavenly Fathers goal for us.

You stated that this life is not like school.. where you must meet certain requirements in order to move on. I used an example to show you that it can easily be looked at like school is. This life never began nor will it ever 'end'. There was a point where we recognized ourselves as conscious beings.. I suppose we could say that was the 'beginning'. If this life had no beginning or end.. why set a time frame? People learn (progress) at different rates.. this much at least is undeniable. Or perhaps.. we're simply waiting for a higher truth :) We might not be 'ready' for it yet. Much like polygamy? This life has no beginning or end. In that sense.. our entire existence is to prepare ourselves to become adults, it has nothing to do with 'meeting God'. We're striving to achieve adulthood -- not to impress someone -- and some people bloom later than others. We adhere to certain standards because we have been told that it's the fastest path to exaltation.. to maturity. We adhere to those standards because there is a reward. If there was no reward.. no progression.. nothing in it for me -- why strive for something that yields no reward? I disagree. It's not? There was a time where we were unconscious intelligences.. "pulling the plug" would put us into a similar state. What I call 'oblivion'. If there is no destruction.. and only the chance at life without progression.. I cannot imagine a more cruel system for those who fail. I believe God is loving and forgiving.. I don't think he ever runs out of 'second chances'. That's just me though. It just makes sense. Mental model seems sharp from this side. I think that God is much like we are.. and of course I think he's a bit like myself (don't we all? ) You're about as far off the mark as you could get.. I think God toys with his creations very little and that he doesn't remove his children from school because they failed the 6th grade. This life has no beginning or no end. That's reality. I simply think a better name for the plan of salvation.. is the plan of progression. I think it's alot like a race.. where you end determines where you start. Where you start determines what kind of advantage or disadvantage you're faced with.. and that largely impacts whether you win or lose.

Says who? It seems that way to me.. there are specific ordinances (and other stuff, i'm certain) that must be experienced in order to 'graduate' (exaltation). Explain why one cannot change their nature ten million years from today. Why can the decision not be made later instead of today? I see no difference.. I will still be who I am.. and you will be yourself also. We will not lose the ability to make that decision, I do not think. Whether or not making that decision will do any good whatsoever seems to be the subject of this thread (and I believe it will). So if one cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom (and also the glory) on June 29th, 2009 ... who is to say that he will not be able to on June 29th, 2109? Even one million years later would work. Consider how far you have come in this short life.. and then consider what you could do in one million lifetimes .. which is barely a drip in the cosmological bucket. I have no idea because I have never experienced it.. but I have imagined the scenario. It's just like me saying that I would rather be dead than be in a vegetative state and asking my mother to please pull the plug if that were to happen. Isn't it? It's the plan he has set up.. there's no changing that. It's not exactly set in stone doctrine though.. as we can see by the differing takes throughout the thread. My point is that if there is no progression after damnation.. what does it matter if you are in outer darkness or the telestial kingdom? Celestial kingdom or bust, it looks like.. unless progression through kingdoms exists. Outer Darkness for those who have no chance at progression due to having commited the 'unpardonable sin'. I cannot picture a scenario where a loving God would tell his child.. it does not matter how many times you try to climb this tree -- you'll never reach the top -- so you might as well stop trying. On the other hand.. I can picture a loving God telling his child (who had fallen from the tree).. to keep at it and you might make it to the top one day.

Of course. If you "fail that course" so to speak.. that's time that you can never get back. You'll never catch the rest of the group if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.. The idea of 'damnation' is repulsive to me. Why have 'outer darkness' at all.. if the punishments of the lower kingdoms are equal? It would be a shallow existence.. with no hope outside of death -- and immortal intelligences don't die frequently it would seem. I'd much rather destruction and oblivion than living with the hope of 'something better'. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment.

It makes all the sense in the world to have progression between kingdoms. We are not men who will be turned into Gods.. we literally are Gods. We grow up, that's it -- how mature we get -- will depend us. I'll break it down for ya.. in highschool.. we took a math placement test. There were 3 possible outcomes based off of your score.. and it determined what level math you started in. 1) Pre-Algebra (Pre-Algebra, leads to Algebra 1a) 2) Algebra 1a (Algebra 1a+1b = Algebra 1) 3) Alegebra 1 The people who did not test well and were placed into Option 1.. were 3 years behind the people who did test well and got placed into Algebra 1. Not only are they 3 years behind them in highschool.. they're also behind them in college, where they would have to start out at Algebra II, which is not even worth "credit". So by not testing well -- they were way behind. Does that make sense? These are 18 year olds.. being behind 3 years is like being behind 1/6th of their life. (When we're dealing with eternity.. that is a long time)

Outstanding article.

Quoting from the Discourses of Brigham Young, as Selected and Arranged by John A. Widtsoe, in the Chapter on “The Priesthood”: “I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwa[r]t the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give their leaders did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whisperings of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.”

I'm firmly against the idea that our progression stops. If anything -- it simply slows down -- much like failing a course in college. Where did the first God come from if he was not rewarded his calling by a 'higher being'? (I say that to show that it's not necessarily a 'rewrad') I don't think people comprehend how long 1 billion years is.. It's something like 12.5 million 'average' life spans.. I sure as heck can't comprehend it.