guitarwizard

I am pretty sure Masonry and Freemasonry are exactly the same. Joseph was indeed a 3rd Degree Master Mason. I think it was the day after he joined Freemasonry that he became Master Mason. I suppose it would be like receiving the Melchizedek priesthood the day after baptism. That is false. i know many member masons. Hi! That was me that said that, and it was simply a statement of "would you look on the internet to see the temple ceremony or would you go to the official church sactioned location (the library of Congress)?" I have not been through the endowment ceremony, hopefully i will be able to sometime in the near future, whenever my 1 year mark is up. I am very proud to say that i also have been able to keep nearly all things about the temple unknown. I do not know anything about the way the endowment takes place, all i know is a few of the symbols that have been linked to in this thread. I am very happy to say that those sacred things will not have been spoiled at the great day that i can take out my endowments.

I went to the church. It is best to look up meeting times first though, i didn't. The waiting game is not a good one to play with missionaries. You get very impatient. If you can find the bishops number, give him a call. I am sure he would love to hear from you. Good luck, you are in for the best years of your life.

Well, as we believe that he is a prophet of God, if he called for us to do something of that nature, there would have to be some sort of inspiration behind it. I don't think it would shake my faith unless it were a blatant way of proving he was not a prophet. Then, heavy prayer and fasting would have to settle the matter for me.

I would do it. I don't have much though, so… The hard part would be convincing my family to come with me. I have actually been thinking alot recently of the Law of Consecration. What would you do in the situation of the Prophet calling for the immediate recognition of the law? Would that deed be handed to your bishop the next day?

I am not doubting that at all! my comment was not saying that you would be fine without a mission, i think every young man in the church should prepare to serve on a mission, go, honorably return and start a family, worthily raising his children in the church to do the same. It doesn't always happen. That second counselor? He was a late convert. He also didn't have the ability. But you are right, he turned out great. There are negative things about not going, but there are even worse things for going and not wanting to. I just had a heated debate yesterday with an RM who didn't want to go. He left the church for feeling forced to go on a mission, among many other things. This stigma sucks though. If you force someone to do something, they will hate it. Like i hated reading in high school! I hated 1984 and Shakespeare, now i love them because i am not forced to do something i don't want to. Young men should be prepared to serve a mission. If something happens and they are found incapable of going (be it a life predicament or that they do not have a firm grasp of the gospel, OR the only reason to go is that there parents will buy them a car) they should not be looked down upon. That is like looking at someone who judged themselves not worthy to take the sacrament and coming up to them after church, in the middle of their repentance process, and bullying them about their lack of reverence for the Saviour. That is my opinion.

i would also like to reply (again) to the "important" calling comment... All callings are "important" callings. All callings that are set in the church are a delegation of power of things that ultimately the prophet would have to do himself if he did not set up a system in which members could become stewards over certain responsibilities. These callings insure that every bit of the church runs smoothly and is just another sign that it is the true church. There are not unimportant callings, and all members who are worthy can serve in these callings. Just because someone may have not had the capability of going on a mission does not affect their worthiness to that calling. The stake president or bishop calling said member is the only person that can deem the member unworthy to participate in that calling.

seconded. I am pretty sure my bishop joined the church after he and his wife were married. That takes out the "married in the temple" and "served a mission" requirements. But he is my bishop. Also, the second counselor to my bishop in my college ward never went on a mission and was only sealed in the temple. Not the bishop, but still a respectable position.

yeah, but i did my part in getting the fight out of the public and making sure the truth was along side the lies. I knew there was no changing his mind, but at least others don't have to rely on his warped testimony.

By guitarwizard (Power User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:13 AM (59 minutes ago) knowing the close bonds Joseph had to both his father and Hyrum, i am sure that he had learned many of the mason rituals prior to his initiation. By Chitty (User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:53 AM (19 minutes ago) That's quite the assumption. The plain as day reality is that he was initiated as a Mason in Nauvoo, and within weeks "revealed" the early version of the Endowment. I encourage you to get a transcript of the 3 Main Degrees of Masonry, and then an earlier version of the Endowment (pre-1930 preferably so you can see more of the Masonic influences). Lay them side-by-side and then we'll talk. They have since taken out the blatantly masonic elements (the Penalties which were word-for-word lifted from the masons, and also an entire portion of the Endowment known as The Five Points of Fellowship, which is also a direct lift from the masonic ceremony). Don't complicate this with your talking points - it's quite obvious. By guitarwizard (Power User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:05 PM (7 minutes ago) I never disagreed with you! I know that the endowment ceremony contained masonic influences! and i also know that Joseph was a mason! i believe i said that in my first reply to you (first or second). I also know that Joseph was a prophet. The majority of the early church were humble farmers. Joseph obviously had sat in with many of them at the masonic lodge and saw them contemplated the rites when they could hardly read and write themselves. He sees them understanding this complex ritual and realizes that by using elements from the rites, they could understand the endowment better, and realize through that ceremony what they were being endowed with. Remember: there is the endowment and then there is what carries the message of the endowment. What carried the message in the temples at nauvoo and until 1930 included those masonic influences. It probably took so long to change as well because the church has a whole needed to realize this. But as we went from the understanding farmers who had experienced parts of this in the lodge to the baffled people twentieth century, the prophets knew it was time for the ceremony to be changed to for better understanding. Also, don't just focus on the similarities. When you do that, when you are exclusive to one part of an argument, that is the anti-game. Focus on the differences as well. What about washings and anointing that were the part of the endowment, do not forget the importance of this. It was also part of the endowment. Part that is present nowhere in the mason practices. Also, this was prior to Joseph being a mason! This rules out the idea of "they have a ceremony, let's have a ceremony." The endowment was already being recieved "line upon line." So there are parts of the endowment, even from Nauvoo, that have no equivalency in Freemasonry. We also have parts of the endowment that spring back from Kirtland. And you insinuate that the endowment is stolen from masonry? Maybe you also need to lay them out side-by-side. I have done my research. Your move. By Chitty (User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:08 PM (4 minutes ago) Dude, the only part of the Endowment that was "revealed" in Kirtland were the washings and annointings. God, you're a f------ idiot. Enjoy your jesus-jammies and 90% pay for the rest of your pathetic, mindless, life. By guitarwizard (Power User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:13 PM (Just now) i am an idiot? How am i idiotic? Because i see past the anti bull and can understand where this plays a role? Because i can actually comprehend that something can be taken from somewhere else and used to convey a message? Because i can see Christ doing the same thing in the New Testament? Or have you lost faith in that too? I just really want to know, even if it is your last message to me: Why does that make me idiotic?

bytor2112: no that was the comment of another, and i said the same thing. It seemed like he was trying to start the "the church is hiding information" argument. I simply brought up that the church supplies reliable information: the endowment is available online, or you can read about it through the church in the Library of Congress. I considered Elder Ballard's counsel to continue the conversation and judged by the spirit, and after about 5 more responses decided to end the conversation in a public eye. I have told him if he has questions he can contact me, but my defense has gotten to the point that he started to make sporadic accusations instead of focusing on one central idea (which started as the endowment). But, i do find this very interesting, in a faith promoting way. Is there an official consensus of what Masonry is? Do they believe the temple rites to be that of Solomon's temple?

my point is to try and make one less site on the internet, one that i frequent on that note, that has malicious lies about the church. This started as an attack on a guy about to leave on his mission. Those questions were posed to the soon-to-be missionary. It was partially in defense to him as well. What if those questions made that guy start questioning only weeks before his mission? I just don't want even 1 person to be led away from the truth of the church because i didn't take time to defend it. new response: I find it interesting that just last week Elder Oaks gave a speech where he cautioned members of the church about reading about their history from anywhere other than the church's official accounts. If the church is true, why are the leaders of it always so concerned about people doing research on their own without the guided hand of the church? They seem to know on a subconscious level what has become apparent to me over the years: the further you dig into the church's history and doctrines, the more doubt you get.

here is the conversation. I get very heated, i need to work on that. Chitty Wrote: WHY IS THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY LITTERED WITH SIGNS AND SYMBOLS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE FREEMASON DEGREES? DO YOU THINK ITS ONLY A COINCIDENCE THAT JOSEPH SMITH INITIATED INTO FREEMASONRY AND THEN WITHIN THE MONTH "REVEALED" THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY, WITH ALL ITS MASONIC ELEMENTS? AND LASTLY, DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT OVER THE YEARS THE MOST OBVIOUS MASONIC ELEMENTS (THE PENALTIES, THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP, ETC.) HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY? me:I find it very sad that you did not have a strong enough faith to withstand the pitfalls and snares of anti-mormon literature. If you were so shaken by this fact, then you obviously did not have a testimony of the prophet and the restoration of the gospel. While i am far from a perfect saint, i have only been in the church 8 months and have a testimony of the prophet. Remember what predated what: Christian temples or Masonry? And, also remember that there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual, which has been adapted several times to further the understanding of people at the time. i suggest you peruse through this. and whatever church you belong to now, i hope that you build a stronger faith in it. How does one explain similarities between Masonic and temple ritual? that might help you out. And may god bless you. Chitty wrote: I find it interesting that you attacked my credibility, worth, and integrity as a person instead of answering my questions. In an effort to keep this civil, I won't tear into you at this time. Have you even been through the temple? Me:No, i haven't been through the temple, but i know enough about it to answer your questions as i have dealt with this attack before (people will do anything in their power to prevent a baptism). I don't believe i attacked your worth or integrity as a person. I could see where you would say i attacked your crediblity, which was not my intention. I was actually just saddened by your loss of faith, if you had faith to begin with (not an attack, just an assumption). And i did answer your question: remember that there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual, which has been adapted several times to further the understanding of people at the time. i suggest you peruse through this. and whatever church you belong to now, i hope that you build a stronger faith in it. How does one explain similarities between Masonic and temple ritual? and referred you to a scholarly site in which you could learn more on the subject. Chitty wrote:"www.fairlds.org" is about the furthest thing possible away from being a scholarly site. I studied the temple ceremony inside and out (have you?) as a believing mormon and missionary. I spent years studying Freemasons and their rites (have you?) - not from your reviled "anti-mormon literature" but rather from their own source materials. I came to this conclusion on my own after years of study, not some apologist or anti website. And trust me, my decision didn't come about because I was offended or had sinned or whatever mormons usually blame it on. It was actual free thought! Imagine that! I know you're only 8 months into this, so naturally you're going to be defensive about your newfound beliefs. Your new mormonism-filter and the fact that I was there and now look at it from an outsider's perspective is going to make this nearly impossible to debate. I mean, your entire new way of life is on the line here! The thing that makes me absolutely sick (other than the usual condescending tone of mormons towards "non"-mormons) to my stomach though is hearing you use the same tone and defenses that I taught people to use as a missionary, back when I believed. I dumbed down and blinded people for 2 years, and hearing you is just reminding me of that. The thought that I taught people to believe that they are free under the guise of "agency" is something I don't think I can forgive myself for. me: While you hardly find it scholarly, that article may prove to be a good source - Greg Kearney is not only a temple going member of the church (who has no doubt experienced the endowment ceremony numerous times) he is also a life member of Franklin Lodge #123 A.F. & A.M. as well as several lodges of research. He gives Masonic education lectures at lodges on the history and relationship of Freemasonry to the development of the Latter-day Saint temples. While i may have only been a member of the church 8 months, i have been an investigator for well over 3 years. Nothing compared to your life of service (year wise), but i know that i have faced more doctrinal discussions and debates than (i'd say) the majority of members in my ward. Many of the formative years of my life were spent in deep study of the church. So yes, believe it or not, i have looked into Masons and their rites and studied the temple ceremony. And, our differences in opinions may be in the different ways we studied. Having a testimony of the prophet, i knew that the temple ceremony was inspired. There is something you taught as a missionary: if the Book of Mormon is true, then it also must be true that JS was a prophet. I wholeheartedly believe in the BoM, so i also believe that JS was a prophet. So, i believe his revelations were inspired, including that of the temple ceremony. Do i find it odd that masonic traces were in the endowment? Not at all. Christ's parables taught men in ways that they understand, so does the temple ceremony. And, in the beginning of the restoration of the church, masonry was widely practiced. Few people were members, and a lot were masons, so naturally they would be able to understand the endowment through those teachings. Today there are 13-14 million members (though hardly that many are temple worthy) and i suspect that a small percentage of those are masons, they would not understand things like the penalties and five points of fellowship. And, just for reference, the missionaries didn't teach me anything that hadn't already found out for myself through prayer and study. So don't tear yourself up about my "tone and defense," they are all mine. Studying the history of the people in the 1830s, the area, the culture: i found a belief system that there was no answer to but baptism. That is why i joined the church. It just seemed common sense after all that time. Chitty: Yeah, I'm familiar with him and read a bit of his stuff a while back. I will give you this: most people who write "anti-mormon" stuff are idiots and don't know what they're talking about. But I also happen to think their opposite, most believing mormons, are also. I am happy to hear that you spent years worth of time preparing yourself for it. I will give you that. Most mormons are naive when it comes to the issues people take with the church, so at least you put forth an effort to think it through. That looks like it may be the end of it. It seems he realized that i am not as naive as he thought and decided to retreat?

I was speaking with someone earlier about women living longer than men. It somehow came up that there are more women in the population than men and he said "because men are able to populate with more than one woman, and that is what life is about: reproducing." That really struck me as i had never thought of that before. It seems polygamy is a completely natural thing that may even be ingrained in human nature.

i defintely pointed him towards some of those articles, but he so kindly bit back with "fairlds.org is not a scholary reference" despite the fact that most of those authors are LDS Freemasons.

I am currently engaged in an ongoing online defense of the church. The attack was based on an RM who left the church due to the endowment ceremony and the masonic remains that are found within the ceremony. What are you reactions towards this? Mods, if this is too touchy, feel free to lock. Edit: Original start of "debate" WHY IS THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY LITTERED WITH SIGNS AND SYMBOLS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE FREEMASON DEGREES? DO YOU THINK ITS ONLY A COINCIDENCE THAT JOSEPH SMITH INITIATED INTO FREEMASONRY AND THEN WITHIN THE MONTH "REVEALED" THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY, WITH ALL ITS MASONIC ELEMENTS? AND LASTLY, DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT OVER THE YEARS THE MOST OBVIOUS MASONIC ELEMENTS (THE PENALTIES, THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP, ETC.) HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY?

For me, it was about 5-6 months after i joined the church that i recieved the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood. I made sure to keep the commandments, keep myself worthy, and exercise my Aaronic Priesthood powers by blessing the sacrament on Sundays. But, remember the Old Testament. Enoch was ordained before his father and grandfather (or was that Seth?). Ordination to the Priesthood is dependent on the duties God has prepared for you, your worthiness on earth, and also to a degree upon your role in the pre-existence. There is nothing you can do to effect God's timing except to live out his will to the best of your abilities, including paying a full tithe, going to the temple and performing the ordinances you can, and exercising your power as an Aaronic Priest.

That is why missionaries are counseled to include a member of the ward in the discussion. That way there is some permanence. When i took the discussions, i knew absolutely no body in the ward i was in. A guy who just got off his mission came with the missionaries, and now he is practically family (and soon may be due to his sister and my relationship )

What about scholarships? Being in college, i was recently asked this by my parents. Even with scholarships, i have to take out loans, so technically, those scholarships are still just borrowed money. Does one tithe on that?

My grandma has had two daughters, one of which being my mom. The other daughter, my aunt, was from a different husband. My aunt has recently gotten into family history (i think it is being a first-time mom and having some down time). Anyways, she has found a lot for her mother, but even more for her father. No one is his family were members, so i was curious if I am able to submit and do the work for him? Is there some kind of protocol for this?

Admittedly, i did not read all five pages, but concerning what the OP said: I am under this banner right now. I have a very strong faith and testimony in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Church, and that this is it, but a mission is not a possibility for me. One reason being that i am a recent convert of not even a year, the other reasons being mostly financial with a few family issues (including the words "disowned" thrown around a few times). I am currently seriously dating a woman in the church and we have seriously talked about marriage, as in we are engaged without the official announcement. Unofficially engaged i guess you could say. It is really hard for me to withstand what i keep hearing from her family though: You can go on a mission! You will be so happy! It is what God wants you to do! You are supposed to! It is if they really believe that i don't want to go. I would love to go, but my calling is here, especially among my family and friends. And that is something that I know, i am called to serve as a member missionary. I just don't know why her family can't accept this and worry about the consequences it might have on our relationship.

You are right, fast and testimony meetings truly recharge those spiritual batteries. I had the great blessing to attend two yesterday and love the need for change we feel in our lives after that.

Hmmm. Where to start? I was raised in a baptist family, though that really didn't amount to much. We were the epitome of lazy Christians. When i was a teenager i started becoming active in the youth program at the baptist church. I met a girl around the same time who was LDS. We dated, but she wouldn't mention her faith because she really didn't want to be abrasive (sharing the gospel is hard when you are young and when you don't want to lose close friends). I talked to her friend, also LDS, a lot just about generalities and at one point the Book of Mormon was brought up. She brought me one, and i read it and knew it was true. I immediately wanted to be baptized. My parents had some reservations, which is expected. I was dating a LDS girl, and they felt i was doing it for her. They also saw the church in the light it is always cast it, a brainwashing cult. So, after a lot of arguments, prayers and still no budging, i decided to put the Church at a standstill: To still study and prepare by myself, but not seek out the missionaries. The gospel is like a descending elevator: If you are not moving forward with your faith, going against the grain so to speak, you are being pushed back. It is just the way of the world. And that's where i found myself. I didn't do anything detrimental to my future, but i did some things i am not proud of. I graduated high school and went off to college in a different city. After nearly half a semester, I had not made any effort to join the church. I was in health class one day when the teacher said "Today is the day you change your life." That was the little nudge i needed, and that day i sought out the missionaries. I was the only investigator they had met that had brought a quad to the discussions, and it didn't take long before i was baptized. It was such a great day, and through the grace of God, my parents actually came. They are still not members, nor have they made any progress in that area, but i am sure that their hearts will be softened, especially in the trial that will be a temple marriage that they cannot attend. That was in November of 2008. I am 19 years old now, and nearing my 9th month in the church. I love this church with all of my heart, and am so grateful to now have it in my life. Above that, i am grateful that i will be able to share the gospel with my children and give them the little things that i missed out on in my life: family prayer, family home evening, sabbath day recognition, and an understanding of the simple truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ.