JohnnyRudick

No, Obama bashing here. Just pointing out the New definition of and old idea. Obama is not the subject in the above statement. Just a quote to give authority to an idea. Obama is our president and I support his office and wish him the best of luck in preserving our great nation here in the "good ol' USA;-), Bro. Rudick

Yes. This was the translation made by Martin Luther. Martin Luther used the compiled writings of Erasmus and Beza to give the Bible to the German speaking people. Before this they had no Bible. The church in power did not have a bible for the people as even the Dewey Version using the corrupt texts of Origen was not even released. The KJ Translators mainly used the TR used by Luther to bring about the KJB. Yes, it is the KJB. Up to the time of the American Bible, brought about by Wescott and Hort, the two of the Ghostly Gould, most people regarded the KJB "The Bible", even though the Great Bible and others also using the TR for it's existence, was in circulation. By the way. The KJB, the Great Bible, Tyndale s New Testament and all other English Bibles and the German Bible, all using the TR, agreed together against the Dewey bible which most people shunned. Bro. Rudick

In today's political society, all the money you earn does not belong to you. It belongs to the government. The government allows you to keep what it decides you need to live on. Those who in government minds make to much money, it decides how much that person really should have made and then confiscates the rest to run the bureaucracy and other government needs. President Obama is on record as referring to the idea that if you give what was once called a Tax Cut to people who make more (allowing them to keep more of the money they earned), that is now called "transferring money to the wealthy.[speech Feb, 24th, 2009]" Government then takes the money that is left and transfers to those who in government minds did not make enough money or to those who did not make any money at all and that last move is today called a Tax Cut. Bro. Rudick

This subject came up before and so it may be easier for some to find I will go over (and over) it again here. Many of the so-called errors that we like to point to can be cleared up with a little study. How many of us have read the Bible through several times? As we read the errors we thought we found in the past get cleared up and we say WOW! Why did I not see that earlier? Some verses have problems and there are, don't let me be misunderstood. But what we call "errors" are most of the time very superficial and a misunderstanding of the time and viewpoint of the writer. What he knew and perceived at the time of his writing, Remember even many of the writing of Moses is a restoration of the lost writings of Adam, Seth, Enoch, Joseph, etc. Knowledge is lost and restored throughout history and perspectives change. This dispensation has accounts that differ from the accounts given in the transitional dispensation of the Original 12 and even in the Dispensations of Adam and Moses. Errors? Not as many as you think if you study and "Rightly Divide" the Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." The fact that the King James Bible is quoted as Scripture in the BofM shows that it has the stamp of the Allmighty on it. It has stood the test of time and the people of this world rails against it just as they do His Church. They have tried to keep it from the people for over 1500 years and have set up a counterfeit for it and have trouted it out in various forms from time to time to create divisions and diversity. God inspired the people of Asia (not Africa) and we have to give thanks to God for people like Erasmus back in 1516 into whom the spirit of God (D&C 130:23) moved to lay the foundation for the King James Bible we have today. In turn it made possible the restoration of the Lords Church to complete His blessing on us. The four standard works of the Church can be depended on and is "profitable" (2 Timothy 3:16) for true accurate information on Gods dealings with His children from before the foundation of the worlds. 2 Timothy 2:15 teaches us that we must "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." One who rightly divides God's words to you gives you a better chance that the man trying to teach you from them is "approved unto God". The world will try to make him feel ashamed, but he knows before God he does not have to be.because he "rightly divides" God's words to you. If one comes to you a friend, stranger or even one called a preacher, and he does not understand the concept of rightly dividing God's words, you do not take stock in that one but find one who can. I do not profess to be scholarly in the least way. I just profess a love for and a need to continue studying the Scriptures as they stand. God in His Infinite goodness has preserved and kept His words in the possession of His people. I know that God has promised to preserve His words, and His church has NEVER been without the guiding protection of the words of Almighty God who is able to perform that which He has promised. God has raised up men throughout history to do this work. He gave us an English Bible, And through that Bible He raised up a man who He used to restore His Church. He did this through a King James Bible. All other bibles are mearly versions of the above, taken from a corrupt line of desent. They are illegitimate children of a wayward wife. The KJB has a pure line of desent. It is the one quoted in Scripture to varify Scripture. It is the only line of decent you can trust. It is "perfect in His generations" Just as Noahs desent was perfect, and a pure genitic pool for man kind, so is our English Bible a Pure stream of LIVING WATER from God down through the centuries. (John 4:13&14) Now lets look at some Scripture. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans-1: 18) O taste and see that the lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in Him. (Psalm 34:8) Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand forever." Some may ask."What is the interpretation of this verse?" What makes you think you have a right TO interpret what God says? You don't interpet Scripture. You can expound upon Scripture. You can s-t-r-e-t-c-h it out and preach on one verse all night long. BUT you tell what it says. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS (ROM.9:17,10:11,11:2.) You say "O that's just coincidence. The Scripture can't REALLY SPEAK. Are you an unbelieving heathen? Not only can the Scripture speak but the Scripture is a Prophet. Look with me at Gal. 3:8. "And the Scripture, forseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,..." So the Scripture also is a prophet for those who believe the Scripture. And the words are revealed to you through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is a revealator. John 16:7-13, 1Cor.2:15. The Holy Ghost reveals the written words of God. The words of God are Scripture. And the Scripture cannot be broken. (John10:35) Note. Look how many times the bible perversions say Holy Spirit along with the use of the churches of this world. Also look at our correction of the term that corresponds with the KJB in our prayers as in Baptism. Amen? Again as I wrote somewhere else; They are the text from the Vatican library, and from a waste basket in a monastery near Mt. Sinai. These texts were developed by a scholar named Origen of Alexandra Egypt. With the help of the likes of Irenaeus, Aquilla and Cyprian. The contents of these Manuscripts were had by the King James translators in the form of Jerome's Latin version of the Bible and the Rheims bible from France. We are told by most sources today Jerome translated from the Hebrew. Yet his translation agrees with the Corrupt texts the above scholars, yet against the Masoretic text of the Hebrews. Yes, Jerome's Latin Vulgate did agree with the 1582 Rheims version. The King James translators knew better then to use these translations as they knew they were based on leavened manuscripts. Most of the Scholars today know better also, yet... These corrupt texts were had from Egypt. Alexandria Egypt. Two Choices. The source of these corrupt, leavened bibles we are buried in today is Alexandrian philosophers. They've had a very comfortable existence. Through out history they have been under the protection of the Roman Church. Or; The "SYRIAN" or Byzantine text which is identical I'm told with the prevalent Greek text of the Middle Ages; It is NOT the Latin Vulgate! It is the Greek Vulgate of the first and second centuries, and it stands in opposition to the EGYPTIAN texts, of the Vaticanus-B which the other Vatican manuscripts agree the most with, the ( being the best represented of them. It was the Syrian text which had it's beginnings in Antioch Syria. This is the Bible. This is the Book quoted by God in the Book of Mormon. It leaves a trail of blood that can be traced through-out history. From where they were first called Christians, Acts 11:26, to "the end" this trail crimson trail is easily traced. The old common Latin (not the high Latin of the scholars) of the Donatists, Montanists, Novatians, and Waldenses survived against persecution beyond belief. The King James translators had three of these Bibles. They had the works of Beza, Erasmus, and Stephanus, the Complutensian and the Antwerp Polyglots. These Masoretic, Syrian and the Ana-Baptist Bibles all stood together against the Vatican bibles of France, Rome, and Egypt. The King James translators were much more cautious then modern Bible perverters. Our man at the beginning of this article for instance. Origen's Hoax Origen's first work in "Textual Criticism" was his famous Hexapla. That is Hex- app-le. I call it a Hex apple. Of course it was a six column language comparison of translations. The first column contained what was left of the Masoretic text after Origen and friends got through with it. The second column was a Greek transliteration of the first column. The third contained the Greek version of a man named Aquilla. He is the man that gave us the legend of the northern mercenary soldier named Panther who went to Bethlehem and became the father of a blond blue eyed Jew named Jesus Christ. He thought the Greek word for "virgin" was a mistake and thought it aught to be Panther. Humm Strange. The forth column is from a Scholar named Symmachus. The fifth column is the work of Origen himself. This was the first Greek Old Testament ever made. Through Catholic Tradition this Column took on the role of a pre-Christian book. It was first concocted in the early 200's A.D. Not B.C. But to this day it is referred to as the LXX or Septuagint by unwary writers. The only place where 50 can actually be tied to this outside of tradition, is Eusebius (340 A.D.) had fifty copies of this fifth column published for Constantine and the Church at Rome. Hence the Vaticanus books, complete with the books of Judith, Tobit, Esdras, Maccabees, the Epistle of Barnabas, etc. From this we have the Shepherd of Hermes. A young man watching a girl bathing, and although he loves her "as a sister," she is caught up to heaven to reveal twenty pages of "Biblical" prophecy to him and she rebukes him for committing adultery in his heart. What is this young prophetess' name who is preaching to this young man? She is Lady Dame. And since she has been assumed up into heaven she has the right to be God's oracle for a dozen pages. Wescott and Hort say this is one of the "most reliable manuscripts." Uh-huh. The sixth column is from one named Theodotian. He is the one who gave us such memorable scripture as Matt.1:16 "And Jacob the father of Joseph, to whom was betrothed the virgin Mary, was the father of Jesus who is called Christ." We find this verse in the footnote of the RSV with the comment, "other ancient authorities read..." This was Theodotian's opinion of what should be there. He had no authority for that insertion. So how did Theodotian's opinion of a translation of another version, get to be called an "ancient authority?" During the time when the Gospel was delivered to Paul the center of Church activity moved from Jerusalem to Antioch, (Acts 11:26.) not Alexandria. It, Antioch, became the starting point for Paul's journeys. Acts 13:1&2. Also Mark, Barnabas, and Silas, and Peter were there. If you study the book of Acts it is easy to see that it was Antioch Syria not Alexandria Egypt that was the center of Church activity. (Acts 11:22-30, 13:1-4, 14:21- 27,15:5-35,Gal.2:11. As a matter of fact no Apostle was ever sent into Egypt. The Scripture did not tell them to go to Egypt for food. Egypt has always been portrayed in the Scriptures as a "type" of the world system. This world system has always been opposed to the things of God. Egypt has always been known as the land of Ham. Another subject perhaps? God would not allow Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob to stay there. South was a very bad direction to travel. Abraham was to stay in the land and trust God. Yet he went into Egypt and got him self into trouble. Gen.12: 9-13. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not to go to Egypt. They were to trust God. Gen. 26:2&3. Jacob disobeyed God and moved his whole family to Egypt. You say God gave permission for Jacob to go? Yes, after he had already sent his sons to buy corn and they had already gotten themselves into trouble. God made a way to preserve them in spite of their disobedience. They were not to go to Egypt for food. God would not even let their bones remain in Egypt. Gen.50:25. Joseph in this account is a "type" of the Lord Jesus Christ who would deliver us from Egypt. He would even save us even though we went to Egypt on purpose. But once he has fed us, we must allow Moses (Deut.18:14&15,34:10,Acts 7: 37-41.) to lead us out of Egypt. Canaan land is not heaven. It is an "Embassy" of Heaven. Think about it. Canaan is refuge from Egypt, but it is not Heaven. God called Israel out of Egypt. Exodus 3:10. Hosea 11:1. God called Jesus out of Egypt. Matt.2:14&15. God calls you and me out of Egypt. Isaiah 30:1. But the Men of the Bible correctors league tell us otherwise. Jer.43: 2. "Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh," In the Scripture "Pharaoh" is a "type" of Satan, or the Anti-Christ. "and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!" How much do you worship Egypt? We can't get the Words of God from that polluted stream. Do you send your Children to Egypt for training and counsel? Oh, yeah. Public School. Well, that's another story. "O my children are "lights" to the outside world." Do you send untrained children into the battle to do the work of a trained soldier? Plus we are to be lights on a lamp stand, not down there in the midst of the darkness. (Matt.5:15&16.Rev.1: 12-13. We are to stand apart. (2Cor.6:17&18) It is easy to see from the Scripture that Alexandria Egypt is not the place God would choose to preserve His words. It is also plain to see that the Philosophers would not be a people who would not add leaven to the words of God. (Acts 17:18,Col.2:8.) Egypt and the Philosophers would be the "last people on Earth" you would trust in doctrinal matters as pertaining to the words of a Holy God. Egypt is the worst possible place you could go for a Bible. Psalm 1:1 "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in His law doth he meditate night and day." Note the progression in this verse. Progression 1. First you take counsel from the ungodly. You send your children to be "schooled" by these people. I even refer to a "Church" school, or a "Bible" college. I'm convinced that no matter how well you have trained your children, you send them to one of those places, unless you have "some special child," they will distroy your child's faith in not only the three standard works of our Church but even the Book that they profess to believe in, God's holy Bible! You have the responsibility of training up your children. (Gen.18:19,Deut.4:10,6:6&7, Prov.22:6.) Not Egypt.(Isaiah 30:1.) 2. If you do take the councel of the ungodly or have your children to do so, then you find yourself "standing in the way of sinners." You and/or your children will be walking their walk, and talking their talk. 3. Finally you will be "sitting in the seat of the scornfull." You or your children will be the teachers of error. You or your children will be defenders of the ungodly. "Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, as to be hated needs but to be seen. Yet seen to oft, familiar with her face, (1.)first we endure, (2.) then pity, (3.) then embrace." You have the Texts written and edited by Origin and friends in Alexandria Egypt who worshiped Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Pliny, Plutarch, Herodotus, Marcion, etc. The source of "leaven" in Jerome's Latin Vulgate (345A.D.) This accounts for the account of two Latin texts during the "Dark Ages" (599A.D.- 1520A.D.) Because the other one came up from Antioch Syria, in the Church of Jesus Christ through the hands of the Waldensians, Albigensians, Huguenots, etc. in a trail of persecution and blood. The other one of Egypt and Rome, and perversions of the Greek text by Jerome, is the text preserved in the monasteries by the Dominicans, Franciscans, Benedictines, and officials of the Spanish Inquisition. Take your pick. Later Bro. Rudick

I will apologize in advance. My thoughts are jumbled and just cannot function as I use-to-could;-) Good thoughts you put forth though. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia really has a lot put together. I wish I had my notes from over the years but a few years ago I went through a thing that left me almost with just my skin and not much else. But it is not just the geographical situation that I base my belief and knowledge on. It is the way God has directed history and the facts of the case of the "early church fathers" so called. Jerome would not settle for translating the Psalms from the Hebrew to the Aramaic, he had to male a Latin copy. Not the Low Latin of the people but the High Latin he was use to writing in. Useless to the common man of the day. He was a student of Origen and Eusebius who concocted the so-called LXX that so many have so much pride in. Yet it was and is shown to be far inferior to the predated Masoretic Text. The New Testament a compilation of surviving letters from and to leading authorities such as Luke, Peter, John, Paul, Matthew, and Mark had nothing to do with Jerome. Yes, the Dewey version seems to follow the lead of the KJB, yet you must remember that even though Erasmus thought highly of Jerome God put it into his heart not to use his corrupt texts. Instead he used the surviving texts of the Apostles which were written in the Greek of the people, the Greek Vulgate, (Not the Latin Vulgate) even though he used the pattern similar to Jerome he did not use his texts. (Influence from a teacher is hard to get away from I guess.) The manuscripts which Jerome used and the Dewey, the American Standard Version among others all come from the trash. They found them in the trash. Why? Because that is where they were thought to belong. They were not used by the people and were never meant to be used by the people. The Manuscripts that Erasmus used were the surviving manuscripts read and used by the people. Some manuscripts found to be written in about 200 AD match almost exactly to a word with the manuscripts of Erasmus against the compilation of Jerome. It is suspected that the early church fathers of the cult of Origen corrupted the texts on purpose. Why do I say that? I used to know, but now it is merely a warning in your study. You will find very few Bible Professors who will understand let alone admit the deliberate split in bible genealogy parentage and it's deliberate deceptions. I have tried to lay out the outline of what and why this deception and confusion exists. If we choose to ignore the conspiracy that exists to confuse the Scriptural history we will never understand the true nature of the beast we are dealing with. 1 Nephi 13:25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. 1 Nephi 13:26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. 1 Nephi 13:27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. 1 Nephi 13:28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 13:29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest-- because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God--because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. Many today go astray by the changes of these so-called "fathers". There is a great big difference between the texts. Bro. Rudick

Agreed. But I must point out that the main reason, rather we understand why it has worked out the way it has or not, is the fact that the KJB is a line of decent in its authority direct from Antioch where we were first called Christians, to this day. the Latin Vulgate of Jerome and Origen and company are a different line of decent and without authority. One from the land of the Apostles in the land of the New Testament. The other in the land of the south, Where Abraham, Israel, and Jesus came up out of. Bro. Rudick.

You are right. God knew that the Jews would turn away from His Gospel and that He would then turn to the Gentiles. Although I wold refer you to the cities of the plain that God intended to destroy with the city of Lot finally settled in. Abraham was able to turn away Gods wrath to save his nephew Lot and his family. Genesis 13:7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land. Genesis 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren. Genesis 13:9 Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left. Genesis 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar. Genesis 13:11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other. Genesis 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom. Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. ---------------- Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. Genesis 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Genesis 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. Genesis 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: Genesis 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. Genesis 18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. Genesis 18:30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. Genesis 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. Genesis 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. Genesis 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place. Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; Genesis 19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. Genesis 19:3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. Genesis 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. Genesis 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, Genesis 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. Genesis 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. Genesis 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. Genesis 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: Genesis 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. Genesis 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. Genesis 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. Genesis 19:16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. Genesis 19:17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. Genesis 19:18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD: Genesis 19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: Genesis 19:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. Genesis 19:21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. Genesis 19:22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. Genesis 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; Genesis 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. Genesis 19:27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD: Genesis 19:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. Genesis 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt. Genesis 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. Genesis 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Genesis 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. Genesis 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Genesis 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. Genesis 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Genesis 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. Genesis 19:38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. I will not go into the story of the talking ass where God changed his mind again for the worse. I guess it was His permissive Love at work for spoiled children but in both of the cases He allowed against what He said He would do and no good came of it. We do this with our children. We say such and such will go on and one or more of our children and maybe even our wife will throw in with the kids and we will give in against our better judgment and most of the times we were right and no good comes of going against our first feelings on the subject. God is a loving father who sometimes will give into His children even in the Old Testament contrary to the comments of them who do not know Him. Is this "changing His mind"? I believe God knows the outcome of all situations. He will see to it that His will comes out in the end even though slight changes may be made along the way. I believe it possible that He even for-knew the slight changes would be made along the way but He went on as if they would not in order to allow our free will to be exercised. Just a thought;-) Bro Rudick

This was the Dispensation of the Gospel of God to Jesus and Peter before He sent Paul to the Gentiles. Matthew 10:5 "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:" Bro. Rudick

Ya know Dr. T, As I have pointed out elsewhere, God has given different dispensations to many throughout history. To Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus with Peter James and John. He gave different instructions to Peter and again different instructions to Paul. Then in these last days He gave further instructions to Joseph Smith. This dispensation of Gods instructions in which we live today;-) No contradictions, just progress;-] Bro. Rudick

KJV translators relied on a broad variety of resources for the final text but the African texts of Origen and Company were not among them. The texts that the King James translators used had their sources out of the Antioch area. Later compiled by Erasmus and Beza. Bro. Rudick.

I know I am not a part of this conversation but I would like you to know I have no problem with you stating what you know about a verse or even what your feelings are about a particular verse;-) As for "how do actually know which prophets are from God?" Well, The Bible prophets who God introduced introduced new prophets. Elijah and Elisha for instance. In the New Testament Each New Apostle who had athority from God was introduced by an earlier Apostle. As was Paul who was also a prophet as were the earlier Apostles who were given authority and introduced by Jesus who was introduced by John;-) Joseph Smith was given authoriy by Peter, James, and John & John. Introduced by God and Angels in this Latter Day. Each new prophet was given this same authority and introduced to the world. That is how you can "know which prophets are from God?";-) Bro. Rudick

"Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" This verse does not declare in any way that immediately after death is the judgment mentioned in the verse. It only tells us that the rule for man is that we live once and after we die we will be judged. And that is absolutely true. But the time for death and type of judgment, the verse is silent on.

There have been many great answers to the questions put forth here in this thread. I would like to add a couple of extra thoughts into this great discussion if you don't mind. Follow close as my thoughts may to some seem somewhat jumbled. I am going to try here- if you will with me;-) "1 Peter 3 18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. So he preached to spirits in Prison...not people alive in His day, but to spirits that were alive in the time of Noah...over 2000 years before His time on Earth. Why did He do this??" From the time of Adam up to the time of the resurrection we had a condition known as "Hell" that had a great gulf fixed between the so-called righteous and the so-called wicked. This was also a place where many if not all the "angels that "fell" were locked up. Not a very good place to be soooooo The righteous were in a divided off section known as "Abraham's Bosom". That is where Lazarus visited in the story told by Jesus in the above story. I believe that this "Hell" was in the Earth at least from the time of Noah up to the resurrection of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross it was at that time that He . . . 1 Peter 3 18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The "saved by water" phrase is covered above well enough and needs no clearing up at this time. Jesus according to the scriptures preached to these righteous people in Abraham's Bosom His death and with the keys of Hell he freed these people out of Hell into a separate place apart from there into a place He called Paradise. Acts 2:31--"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." That is the place good people now go to to wait the resurrection of their bodies. Where they are preached to by those who carry on the work of the Savior, and work to help those who have died without the knowledge of the gospel. Luke 23: 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. When Jesus met Mary afterward he said He had not yet presented His Sacrificed body before the Father. This is quite another thing from breaking the bands of death, re-organizing Hell and Paradise in new situations. "The gospel was preached to the dead that they may live according to God (by His laws) even though they were not alive" Yes. That is right. There will be a resurrection and all the dead will be judged in the flesh. Each to their own level but the judgment will be just. Some will receive in the spirit world the good news, others maybe not so good news of their coming judgment. They will have a chance to make the news better. That is the Good News. Bro. Rudick

That is a very large part of what "rightly dividing" is all about. Very good point. Thanks;-) Bro. Rudick

Again, this is mostly for those who confuse missing Scripture from the Bible with those who just say the Bible is "wrong" or just not reliable. I am trying here to undo some of the damage done by the preastcraft of this world in the various churches and dens of higher learning's such called. Isaiah 55:11. "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." With all we have gone through up to now, why did God give to us His words? So we may learn about Gods dealing with the people of this world, and His dealing with His people. God gave His words for the growth of His people where ever they may be found or even when. We know that Gods' people still need His teaching and guidance so just as those who have gone before us have had His words and are given new words as needed (unless they fall away and go live in a cave somewhere shutting Him out), so we today. We still need to Know of His dealings with the children of men, and His people and we still need new guidance as needed to meet changing circumstances just as those who have gone before. God gave His word for the growth of His people. I can't stress this enough. God always has His remnant. Rom. 11::2-5. God is not through with His people yet. Reading what God said here in Isaiah 55:11, He said His word would accomplish what He sent it to do. Do you know what God has magnified above His name? His word. Psalms 138:2- "The fact of your attending a religious service no more assures your being a Christian then the fact of your falling into a lake assures your being a fish." Here are a few verses for you to "study". 1. His words shall stand forever Isaiah 40:8 2. His words shall live / abide forever 1pet.1:23 3. His words will accomplish what it was sent out to do. 55:11 4. Hide His word in your heart that you might not sin Psalms 119:11 5. Scripture is by the Holy Ghost. 2Pet.1:21 6. The author of the Bible and all Scripture, the Holy Ghost lives and abides for ever. John14:16 7. The spirit spake by me. 2 Samuel 23:2 8. Gods' words are settled forever. Cannot ever be changed. Psalms 119:89 9. Gods' word endureth forever. 1 Pet.1:25 10. The words of the Lord are pure forever Psalms12:6&7 11. Gods' word shall not pass away till ALL is fulfilled. Matthew 24:35 12. You are to study gods' words so you are able to teach those God sends to you 1Pet.:3:15, Prov.22:20&21. 13. When God teaches you through His word, teach it faithfully. Jeremiah 23:28 14. The Bible God gave us. that so many in this world scorn in and out of christiandom has survived with very little changes, (and that in grammar and spelling mostly) a little over 400 years. You are not to add or to take away from the words that God gives to you. English is still the main language of this earth today. Instead of tearing down the words God gave us lets study so we may better understand Gods Bible. Deut.4:2 15. God word is pure and needs no correcting. Proverbs 30:5&6 16. Those who do add or take away from the words God gives us will lose in the end. Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it., Rev. 2:19 Much Later Most Likely;-) Bro. Rudick

My point (that I take forever to say) is, the prophets say "study". The Holy ghost bears witness to the words, the words being that they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11, which brought them knowledge of the things of God. As you "study" the scriptures, you learn that not all things said are to all people at the same time or even the same place. People say, HAH! contradictions! No, you just have to "rightly divide" because the Scriptured have divisions. One obvious being the New Testament and the Old Testament. But we also have the space between the Church under Peter and the Pauline dispensation between Paul and Joseph Smith. So, I point out, "rightly divide" and "study" folks;-) There ain't no problem in Scripture that a copy of the Book of Mormon, the D&C, P of GP, and the King James Bible and a few choice words from Latter Day Prophets cannot solve if you "study";-) Later Bro. Rudick

Ya got that exactly right;-) Later Bro;-) Or is that Sis?????;-]

I see this happen all the time. With things people say. Things I say. (and it gets me in trouble alot tooooo;-( And things in Scripture. I have seen this quote years ago and when I saw it I just assumed, with some thought, a little prayer and some serious Scripture reading that the inference is. . . "If you were to see [the glories of] the telestial kingdom, [and if you thought you could get there that way, you] would kill ourselves to go there. . ." Sometimes we assume that the hearer understands the unsaid thoughts behind that which is said. Just another thought;-) Bro. Rudick

Even though I will transfer a few notes over, I feel siouxz????. tee, hee;-) The quote above, is closest to what I do and recommend. The more times you go through this the more you will appreciate the choice to do this I promise;-) Bro. Rudick

To see where this is all coming from see my posts in "Errors in the Bible". Pay close attention to the posts there as I am not referring to all bibles in general as worthy of trust 1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. At first I my seem to be "all over the place" but hang in there with me. Ok? We will begin at this point with; 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." From the above verse we can see that it is important to not only study the Scriptures, but to rightly divide the Scriptures. For this study we will dwell mostly on the Bible. Now why should you "study"? The Bible tells us it is to show yourself "approved unto God," You do this by studying and being a "workman" this will allow you to "rightly" divide "the word of truth." Why do so many not "rightly divide" the word of truth? It is because they do not like to study, and they do not like to work. So they teach things out of context, undeveloped doctrines, and doctrine that is not even there. There is taught also no doctrine at all, which is an emotional Christianity. They love but they love the wrong things. They have no solid ground for what they believe. The Bible tells us that your love is to be tempered with knowledge, and of course your knowledge is to be tempered with love. 1Cor.13. 1 John 2:15 &16. "Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." One place where the devil will get you off track is, he will allow you to study and learn much of the great Bible teachings, and that's that. You have all this knowledge, but you do nothing with it. James tells us that we are to be "doers of the word, and not hearers only," If we only learn, and learn, and not DO anything with what we have learned, we only end up "deceiving our own selves." But if when we do "study," and we "continueth therein," not being a "forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:21-2:26. The lazy Christian is in a mess here. Once You have learned, you then have a responsibility. And you are commanded to learn. My, my. Why is there strife in the Church? Why envying and division? Paul told the Corinthian church, "And I, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as to babes in Christ." He says,I want to talk to you like a spiritual Christian, but I can't. Why? They are carnal Christians and cannot except the meat of the gospel. 1Cor.3: 1- 3, Heb.5:11-14. They are still in the same teachings that got many of them "saved", but they can not grow from there. Is it because they have no love for the word? I don't know, but that is one thing that retards many today, and even gives most a false security. (This was one of the problems in the Corinthian church.) 1Cor.15:2, 2Cor.6:1. The big reason for division in the churches is we do not rightly divide the word of truth. I suppose that the churches today could be called "The babies in Christ Church". They say PAUL'S GOSPEL? Why are we not allowed to say "Joseph Smiths' Gospel? When were you "saved"? Were you saved before the birth or death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but after His birth? Or were you "saved" before the restoration of the Gospel? Most likely it was after the restoration of the Gospel. Once in a while you will hear someone say, "O that doesn't apply to me." It may, or it may not. Is that person "rightly dividing" or not? How do you know what part or parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Nehemiah, Psalms, Matthew, John, Acts, James, Hebrews, Etc.. Anywhere in your Bible? How do you know which parts of the Bible are for you? It is all for you, I know that. All Scripture is good for "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" so that you will be equipped "unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16. How do you know whether it is a doctrinal or instruction in righteousness verse for a Christian. Both, or neither? If you need help in understanding the words of God, He provides help within the Scriptures. All you must do is study. Always remember, Back up Scripture with Scripture. Always let supporting Scripture have the last word in what you think, and what you believe. NEVER try to support Scripture with Science, or History found outside the pages of the words of Almighty God. Nor try to back up Scripture with opinion. God always has the last word just the way He said it. If it is a parable He will tell you. "The Kingdom of Heaven is as" and "Where-unto shall I liken the Kingdom of God?" If the Scripture does not tell you it is a parable, analogy, or allegory, then it is not. That is how we can know that the entire book of Genesis is absolutely factual. The earth was created in six literal days. The Bible says that the earth has been covered by water at least twice. Eve really was confronted by the serpent and ate forbidden fruit. Jacob wrestled with God. Etc.. You do not interpret Scripture, YOU BELIEVE IT! ROMANS 3:4 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." So what does Isaiah 40:8 mean? Better yet, what does it say? It says "The word of our God" (whose' God?) "The words of our God shall stand forever." (How long?) "The words of our God shall stand forever." No interpretation needed. A forth grade education and the Holy Ghost is all you need to read and understand the King James Bible. Here's another verse. 1Peter 1:23. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth for ever." We are talking about the W O R D S of God. Before I say anything else on this, lets look at another verse. Isaiah 55:11. "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." When God speaks a word, it lives and abides and does that which God intended it to do. You can count on that. So, 1Peter 1:23 tells us that the word of God in this instance at least, the word of God that all children of God are born by, who are "born of the Spirit, by the word of God," It says these words of God, liveth and abideth forever. That's clear enough, huh? So somewhere in Joseph Smith's day there had to be words of God that Joseph Smith could have faith and believe in. And there was, and he did. Wescott and Hort had not yet arrived on the scene to confuse the issue. 1 Corinthians 15:1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;" 1 Corinthians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." The Gospel preached. Preached from the words of God can "save" a man. How is he "saved"? "[O]f the Spirit" by the word that is preached. "nless ye have believed in vain.". Very important point for another subject. Better go for now. I'm not done yet but it is all I can stand for now. Hold that thought;-) Bro. Rudick.

Actually I was referring to Catholics and Protestants or should I say former Protestants;-) Never have I ever heard of an invite sent out to Original Church of Jesus Christ members to join in for a church meetin'. That is in the up and up and all;-) Bro. Rudick:)

Yeah, I know;-) I was just being. . . . The point is, many today are doing just that. Different denominations are joining in church services and even sacrament. Since we are all Christian, "why not" they say. I believe there has to be more of a coincidence of belief in a god, a christ, a holy (spirit of sorts). Just a thought. Bro. Rudick:D

When we say "fellowship" do we mean being "nice" and treating each other wit the respect that says "I understand what you believe to be true is important to you and I have no problem with you practicing your belief that falls into the Judo/Christian lifestyle" (yeah, I do have my limits on this "live and let live attitude too;-) Or do we mean that Catholics, Protestants, and people of the Church of Jesus Christ can be allowed to mingle in together in our houses of worship and partake in each others sacraments with no limits or exclusions? You would be surprised what some people expect in the pursuit of "commonality". 1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 1 Corinthians 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed? Bro. Rudick Bro. Rudick

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

I have no "frustration" on this subject and I know of no one who does. We only cling to the Church of our Lord and our claim is it is a restoration of the True Church set up by Jesus and the Apostles. Predating the council of Nicea Acts 11:26 "And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." These people the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints know that they well understood the plural nature of the Godhead. It was the Council of Nicia that took this doctrine away and supplanted it with the Romish view. The Church has proclaimed that even Adam understood the need of submitting to the Lord's Christ. Moses 6:52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and testify to all this by being baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you. and Moses 6:57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time. Just as Moses understood the nature of Christ, that there would be two of them. Moses 6:7 Now these same priesthoods, which was in the beginning, the priesthood of God and the priesthood of Satan, shall be in the end of the world also. The Lord's Christ and the Christ of Satan, both proclaimed by mighty angels. It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that is the Christian Church, The Church of the Lords Christ. All others are would be copies. Doctrine and Covenants 23:7 And, behold, it is your duty to unite with the true church, and give your language to exhortation continually, that you may receive the reward of the laborer. Amen. Bro. Rudick