JohnnyRudick

A long time ago I did a paper on the study as to the Deist nature of the founding Fathers. I wish I had some of those writings now as they would be very helpful to me. I today am of this opinion because of that study that they, General Washington in particular was not so much a deist and that the movement of the French Philosophers did not even have its influence until much later even though Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson made many trips to France and England to secure financing and such from brothers abroad. France in particular. It was Washington later learning of such influence from notably France wrote letters to the brethren warning them of this influence which later took hold through out the lodges. I wish I could remember more particulars I only know that for now, I am content to believe that they were not so much Deists as today's writings record them so much to be. You must get hold of a book and read it called "Proofs of a Conspiracy" by John Robison. Maybe an Old friend may have an old torn up copy. It will show the changes that the lodges went through during the time of the French Revolution and the founding of this nation. This was one of the books that had the nation is such a stur over Masonry during the early 1800s. Wish I could be of more help. Not saying these man were all Christians. Just that I believe they are not the hard core deists that they are today painted out to be. I got into trouble with my writings back in my Political History Class back in the mid 70s and it wasn't easy as I was expected to vomit back every word my professors. But I was sort of an independent sort and. . . Bro. Rudick

Hummmmmmmmmmm, OK:eek: Bro. Rudick

No kidding! This power, the power of the Holy Ghost, our Comforter, will give us this power. If we work with God, He will work with us. Am I talking about Salvation? No, all who accept the atoning Sacrifice of our Lord will be "saved". What I am talking about is what will your reward be? As I have pointed out before. Will it be Stubble? Hay? Wood? Precious stones? Jewels? Or will it be Gold in the Celestial Kingdom of our Father? He will help us get there from there. But you must work with Him, for Him to work with you. He will pull you to the starting gate. 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. Will you settle for "Stubble"? Saved "Stubble". We are told even that is pretty good. Just wondering? Bro. Rudick

You know, priest's through out history have been trying to stand in that one spot between fallen man and God. Shedding the blood of animals and man trying to make the atonement that would bridge the gap. Some priests have been sent by God. Others have taken this work on to themselves and have twisted it to the point where the idea had been finally lost. But Jesus who we call Christ. The Lords' Christ, born of a Womb-man and with the mighty Elohim as His Father, brought to this Earth through the Power of the Holy Ghost made it possible for Him to as a man, lay down His life and as God, take it up again bringing us up with Him. Praise the Lord! Bro. Rudick

I am understanding in this, you are thinking about all that His suffering and experience this sacrifice all entailed. And the reason for it. It was the Jesus Himself who offered up the Sacrifice. He was betrayed by one thought to be His friend. (but He knew better) The suffering and the shedding His Blood in the garden. The degrading before the Jewish leaders. The disrespect of the soldiers. The further agony and humiliation on the cross. He is the Great High Priest. The Jewish leaders who goaded the Romans into Lynching Him were only the knife that led to bringing us back into the presence of God. All this you had in mind. Right?

No, not at all. Just a thought at this is one exception that points out the rule. We have the cherubims in Ezekiel but they did not have many heads. They each had four faces. No other creature ever described in Scripture. And he/it is up to no good. Bro. Rudick

Paul is trying to teach the Corinth church something here using Eternal principals of the ordinances he revealed to them. The words I want you to pay close attention to here are "power" and "glory". Ignore the rest and just figure out here what those principals are. 1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 1 Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 1 Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 1 Corinthians 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 1 Corinthians 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 1 Corinthians 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. (It's not our custom today either, but there is a lesson here.) Bro. Rudick

I am hoping this is all done with the up - most "tongue in cheek". A beast with many heads? Bro. Rudick

Go figure:o Bro. Rudick

I'm sorry you missed the symbolism of headship. In this earthly life we have many pictures of the divine. The bride of Christ. Christ the bridegroom. 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. Paul presenting the bride to Christ. Christ is the head of the Church as man is to the woman. Headship was set up in the Garden. Not in the Church Age when man's traditions hold sway. If you can't see it, your not alone. Many can't. Bro. Rudick

I don't know how this got passed me till I submitted my comment:rolleyes: You put in such a great post. Would have saved me a lot of head scratchin' if Id seen it. Bro. Rudick

Very interesting. Here is what I believe. I speak for myself. I am not so sure I would be able to handle more then one woman but Nature in general tells me that is is not the natural order of things that a woman should have more then one husband. I know. There are some who can find obscure instances in Nature where it happens but it is not the rule of things. In Heaven in the pre-existence it was the Father who directed the H evenly council. In the Garden God created man first. In His own image He created man. In His own image created He them, but He created man first. Whatsoever he called the animals that would be what they would be called. The Scriptures tell us that the woman was taken from the man and even her designation as woman is a word telling us that she is a Womb - man. She was brought to the man. He was called Adam. They were called Adam. Mr. and Mrs. Adam. God set the pattern. In most of Nature the pattern remains that the Man is the headd of the house hold. In most societies that pattern has survived to this day. There have been societies where tradition had been lost through travesty and they had to start all over again and things change but where tradition has held for centuries, man is the head of the house. It is the Order of heaven and God established that order on Earth. He did that for a reason. You tend to keep on going the way you are heading unless you turn or get turned, stop or get stopped. Bro. Rudick

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Bro. Rudick

First, I speak for myself and not for the Church. Forgive me if I leave stuff out as I am doing this on the fly again and I try to make seance but. . . Also I know you can't sit here reading this one post all day long:) I use the term belief in my context as a generally used term among the world. O know for myself the difference between "I Know" and "I believe". I say to you through the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is indeed the Christ, the Son of the Father of whom He was sent. That He came to earth was born of a virgin by the Father through the power of the Holy Ghost of whom I have mentioned. He set up His Church and after He set up His Church He was crucified by wicked men and rose after three days and nights in the tomb. Died on a bad Wednesday and rose on a good Saturday dawning toward the First Day of the week. He carried my sins and the sins of the whole world into that garden and on to that cross. Died and went to Hell in my stead and lead the righteous captive free. The Church was persecuted by the establishment church and fled into the wilderness until the Lord brought forth the Bible from the bits and pieces of the Scriptures that survived through all those centuries that the church was in hiding making it easier for the remnants of the Church to come out. But even though the persecution was not as rough from the daughters of the establishment church that had escaped because of the Scripture brought forth. that is for the most part, God now set up a way for them to flee to the new world and start a new life. This set up an environment where God rose up Joseph Smith and restored the original Church that the Remnant of God and those who would flee from the Great and Abominable Church could flee to and restore, renew and start the covenants of God. Renewing their souls for a New life in Christ Jesus under His prophet Joseph Smith. history backs this up. The Scripture backs this up. The witness of the Holy Ghost to me backs this up. Bro. Rudick

How we choose to use our gift of agency has consequences. We can gain on a free gift 1. For the Good. In Type "Gold , Silver, Precious stones". 2. Or for Not So Good. It can cost us a bundle In Type. "Wood, Hay. Stubble". Bro. Rudick

Right. And remember as I posted earlier, "Free Agency" means that we are "free agents". God gave us that. I don't know for sure if it came by birth, of if God dispensed it to us. But He gave it to us. Like a slave master freeing his slaves. Giving them the freedom to now act for themselves, giving them their free agency. The freedom to act for ourselves and not only for Him. Bro. Rudick

I hate to be a parade rainer here but. . . Please give Scripture verses for the above assumption other then the opinions of GA. Don't get me wrong here. I love the opinions of the GA as much as most but when they contradict the spirit of the Scriptures I try to give the Scripture the last word. I believe they are right if we take the statements for men in general. Most people you meet on the street are not "bad" people. But there are those who have been "saved" by another father and they are downright dangerous. I will most likely confuse some here as I can't think as clear now as I use-to-could but I struggle along and please try to struggle along with me:rolleyes: They (the bad people) are found down in the alleys and up in high places. Not all of them, yet some of them have given themselves over to another spirit. Do not be fooled. 1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Alma 5:39 And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil. Alma 5:41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him. Alma 5:42 And whosoever doeth this must receive his wages of him; therefore, for his wages he receiveth death, as to things pertaining unto righteousness, being dead unto all good works. Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. 1 Nephi 14:3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell--yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end. 1 Nephi 14:4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him. Not everyone is "saved" by the same father. Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Scripture like these take on deeper meaning when we understand that we are not only speaking of false Christs among men. Matthew 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is He? They say unto him, The son of David. Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Peter knew who which Christ Jesus was. Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Speaking to the Jewish leaders not the Jewish people; John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Some have just given themselves over to another father. We have nothing to give them for they think they already have it all. Many listen quietly and when we are done they say, "Oh that is all very nice but I already have all that and more." Then they can take your head and think they are doing God service. Ezekiel 8:6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations. Ezekiel 8:7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall. Ezekiel 8:8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door. Ezekiel 8:9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. Ezekiel 8:10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about. Ezekiel 8:11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up. Ezekiel 8:12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth. Ezekiel 8:13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. Ezekiel 8:14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Ezekiel 8:15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. Ezekiel 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. Ezekiel 8:17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. Ezekiel 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. Ezekiel 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. Ezekiel 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Ezekiel 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. Ezekiel 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. Ezekiel 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? Ezekiel 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. Ezekiel 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. There are children of the devil in the alleys And there are children of the devil in high places. Neither of them like us very much and in the future, for a short time, they might have power over us. Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. It could happen for there are evil men. Job 35:12 There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men. Bro. Rudick

Maybe he is referring to being subject to physical pain and physical death? I have ofter wondered if Adam and Eve could have had children with the bodies they had in the Garden. But the Scriptures say other wise. 2 Nephi 2:22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 2 Nephi 2:23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. 2 Nephi 2:24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. I take it from this that there was somthing about their perfect bodies that kept them from having children but I have no idea what that might have neen. As I said. Their bodies were perfect and Adam called her Woman. That is Womb - Man. I have no idea why . . . Bro. Rudick

Most of Christianity believe that the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are one and the same just different faces of the same God. We believe that they are in fact three different individuals within the Godhead. I know that the latter is true so if we say that the Son of God was conceived by the Holy Ghost, knowing what we know of the Godhead we would be making God a lair for He says He is His Son in whom He is well pleased. For He is the Son of the Father which is in Heaven. The Scripture tells it the way it does as there was no possible way that Mary could have conceived the child Jesus without the power of the Holy Ghost. I could go on here but. . . Bro. Rudick

Paul does not differ that much from James or Peter about faith and works if you study and pay attention. Paul also seemed to believe that some can "believe", but without salvation of the father through the Son. 1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. You cannot be "saved" in vain belief. That's what Paul preached as well. Yes you can take statement out to prove "just believe and all's well" OK, let's say you get "saved" by signing on. Paul preached that once "saved" you were expected to "work" for rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. Bro. Rudick

I knew you knew that brother Tom. I was just highlighting that for others;) But, Eve did die. At least for a time God was right in two ways. . . After all. He's always right:) She "shall surly die". Bro. Rudick

Not sure how much this applies here but I hope to use this idea to jump to this. I put a 20.00 bill on the shelf with some change from my pocket and my oldest and youngest sons who happen to see me do it; Now I don't say to them. "Don't partake of this for in the day that thou doist thou shalt surly die:D I just go outside and get in the car and drive away. I come back and it is still there, I go to bed that night and it is still there. They know that that money is still dad's and it has mot yet been released to anyone's use (yet) but his. Most everything else in the house is there for their use but that money. They instinctively know that from earlier instruction that that is true. In time I go by there and the money is gone, I ask of my children, "who took the money that was on the shelf"?. . . Another learning opportunity. For me and for them:p If after enough time had passed I would have divided it up between them, but now? They got to pay me back. Bro. Rudick

But, Eve did die. At least for a time:) God was right in two ways. Something in what ever it was she ate, I believe it was of the grape tree, that made a change in her body that produced "blood" in her system and made her mortal subject to death. She "shall surly die". Bro. Rudick

Yes, and to take this even a little bit closer to home; We measure time by the time it takes for the eye to "twinkle":D In eternity will we not have eyes to twinkle:eek: Yes, from the time it takes for me to move the finger of my right hand. from my left. to my right, there will be "time".:) Even if it takes a trillion twinkles:p Bro. Rudick Bro. Ru

All very well said. I do agree that there is a difference between Time and Eternity. But it does not necessarily follow that in Eternity there is no time. Just time without end. Bro. Rudick