JohnnyRudick

No offense taken:D We LDS people Love the Scriptures and strive to stick to them. It is just that some of us seem to get caught up and go adrift by the offhand comments of those we hold in high esteem. But Jesus is in control and will keep us on track;) Bro. Rudick

Yep, yet Brigham Young threw the ball out there and we have to deal with it. Bro. Rudick

I and many of us agree with you on that:) Peace;) Bro. Rudick

Yup, He was God at that time and He still is. "realtions with Mary"? No Scripture says He had what we define as "realtions with Mary". He made it possible for Mary to "conceive" the scriptures say. This was done through the power of the Holy Ghost the Scriptures say. How this was done, the Scriptures do not say except the Scriptures do say it enabled her to remain a virgin. Let's stick to the Scriptures. Bro. Rudick

I think; He was referring to since God is a physical "Man", then what would physically inhibit Him from having physical relations with a human woman. That was the idea he was getting at. Bro. Rudick

"1) Immortal parents produce spirit children - Doctrines of Salvation, volume 2, p. 68" No problem there is there? If so, where? "2) There is no evidence that an immortal sperm and a mortal egg could combine. It defies logic. We can't even stand in gods full presence without being transfigured. Elohims sperm would have anhiliated Mary's egg." That is why the "power of the Holy Ghost" had to over shadow her. Do you believe Scripture? Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Luke 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. "3) Mary and Joseph are Married. Elohim is not some galavanting greek God. " I agree. "4) If Jesus was a hybrid, which he was not." He is not? That is what made the Atonement possible. Up to that time priests legitimate and otherwise have been trying to bridge the gap between God and man. To bring man back to the presence of God. To make the ultimate sacrifice. God has given us types and figures throughout the Scriptures pointing to the day in the meridian of time when this would finally be accomplished. Jesus in His humanity that he inherited from His mother was able to lay down His life. Through the Godhood of His Father He was able to lay down His life voluntarily and take it up again Himself. No other man could have done it. If a fallen angel had been able to pull off a hybred, (and I personally think they may have) the off spring would not have wanted to do it and I believe it would not have had the power to take it's life up again anyway. "What would have happened if he had had children." Maybe He did. Who knows? "(I dont think he had physical relations with any mortals during his mortal ministry" Maybe not. Who knows? "btw) Would they have been 1/4 immortal?" Yup. "5) If God were to sin he would cease to be God. Alma 42." No, Scripture ever said He did sin so no problem. He is still God. Bro. Rudick

I believe we get it from this verse; Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Bro. Rudick

Right, We have to understand the state of the people of Isreal at that time. There was not a man in Israel. Could happen again maybe? It has happened in places where a woman has has to do the job where the existing men were more "women" then the women:eek: Bro. Rudick

Exactly. And I have no problem understanding how that would work, I am sure that is how it worked with prophets of the past also. We have the finished work of these prophets but we have no idea how even one verse may have developed during the life of that prophet. I only have issue with changes taken on by others to revelations given to a prophet after the death of that prophet like in the case of the LXX (Septuagint) and the Latin Vulgate for instance. If God calls a later prophet, we have the revelations given to that prophet. That is how God "updates". Bro. Rudick

Good point and a good answer but I am not so sure. I don't know, but I am not so sure. Quite a dilemma. A few thoughts. It is not like, "When and How is a person "saved"? Where we have Scriptural instruction. Don't want to error on the wrong side on such an important subject. We know that "Life is in the Blood". Leviticus 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. So I lean toward the opinion that since the Mother provides hher blood in the beginning to the attached egg (or does she?) He receives "life" from her. The "Life" force is in the Oxygen" that is in the blood. "Breath of Life" Soooooo, does the Baby have to take the first breath? I don't know. But it is a scary thought that maybe that the life force is already in live blood. Is it the Mother's life force or is it the baby's? I don't know:confused: Can the baby get Oxygen from the mother to feed the Baby's own blood or does the Baby have it's own or does it need to take the first breath to get it's own? I would save all baby's if I could from the time of conception unless the mother's life was in danger. I don't mean she is "depressed" but actually in danger of dieing. There is never that chance in a "late term abortion" that I have ever heard of that the mother is in danger of dieing. That is just a "straw man" that they throw out there to justify the horrendous attack on the baby. Almost all of those to the letter are abortions of convenience. Note also, there is a commercial enterprise ramping up to justify the creation of human embryos for scientific experimentation. There is no humane reason for this other then the development of Nazi type experimentation. The question, "When does "life" began for humans" is used by these people as a tool to wear us down to accepting these experiments. Beware! I personally believe that weather we (humans) understand it or not, these are human sacrifices for spiritual mischief. (another topic) Bro. Rudick

Could it be that we are thinking too hard here? Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2 Corinthians 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; And as pertaining to the "saved" person. This comes up over and over again so I will use this verse in two ways here:) What will he/she do with their "saved" condition. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. It is safe to say that in the Scriptures, "vessels" are people. The Fleshly Body of Jesus is the Son of Mary. Born of a Woman by a God through the power of the Holy Ghost. the rest of your speculation makes perfect sense to assure that the "sign" be fulfilled. Isaiah 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Just as the Scriptures say. Bro. Rudick

I was "missing in action" when this was discussed before. Sorry I missed it. In some circles it may be considered that the embryo can technically be "alive" yet not be a "soul" as the spirit as some may think, has not yet entered into the "embryo". Some say that it takes "breath" (Genesis 2:7) as the symbolical presentation showing the entering in of the baby's spirit to make that baby a living soul. Baby not "breathing" Baby not a "soul" some say. Just an example. Bro. Rudick

1 Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 1 Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 1 Corinthians 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. Many call the woman the "completer". This is not the derogatory thing that many try to put on it. IE "You complete me." It only means that It was God the Father who brought the woman and presented her to the man. Marriage is a holy sacrament that must echo the very first one. Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Just as Paul said 1 Corinthians 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. It must be a man and a woman and it must be "in the Lord" and they complete and compliment each other even though they are different in many respects. Bro. Rudick

A lot of people say a lot of things. We all have our speculations. Some of them even being General Authorities. Funny, when a GA speculates it is heralded as a revelation. Did he say it was? Did it end up as Scripture? Yet, most of us "Mormons", stick to the Scriptures and believe them. Bro. Rudick

Maybe the question should be something closer to "When is the Human Embryo first considered a Human Soul?" Or maybe "When do you think the Spirit of a person enters the baby?" Hummmm, could liven things up a bit maybe? Bro. Rudick

From what I understand about how God speaks through a prophet, and I could well be full of um uh, not that reliable info, Most of what I know is buried under al few years but as I remember God would give him ideas and allow him to express those ideas as they were needed in his situation. I assume that all prophets had much the same situations. Jeremiah had similar experiences even to the losing of Scripture and having to replace it and it not matching what he wrote before. I wish I could remember the exact verses inferring this situation. Ya know, no prophet ever says "Hay, I am going to write some inspired Scripture here. Here I go, writing more bible. . ." No it don't work that way. God gives the one He has called ides, Some end up canonized in the end as Scripture, the rest end up as musings you might say. Paul, Peter and the rest wrote many things but God only seen fit for a very few to end up as canonized Scripture. Even with Jeremiah as I pointed out in that one instance. God only wanted one set of writings to survive and He seen to it. Not sure where I was going there. It may come to me after I go off line:p Most likely in the middle of the night:confused: Well, any way Joseph Smith went back over most all of his revelations for the 1844 edition making many adjustments to them. I think:eek: I never have but compare the 1844 edition with earlier versions. I believe that is where the split is and it is more consistent after that. I know the most radical adjustment to the format was the 1876 edition with Chapter, verses and double column pages. Bro. Rudick

Not sure what you are referring to. Later Joseph smith went back and made some minor corrections and small additions to 107 and a few other sections which caused a little stir and when these changes showed up I can't remember. Is this the "update you are referring to? I did not know that any other changes were made to this revelation given to Joseph Smith. Bro. Rudick

Don't - cha just hate it when that happens:D

Not sure if you understand fully(what I'm getting at that is) but what was really helpful was for those of us who were blessed enough to receive our own endowments years ago in the Manti Temple. I Love that Temple:) Bro. Rudick

I "think" I understand:p I believe he is saying that (please correct me if I am wrong on this Dale:) The orthodox Christian Tradition is a safe harbor to tie up in. Even if all else fails "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" will never fail. I know there is a lot more to it but I think that is the main point. Ya can't end up in OD if you Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Bro. Rudick

Now that very loose quote of Brigham Young speculating on the subject (and speaking as if God told him) I agree with. Don't get me wrong, I did not say what so many have in the past jumped at. I do know that Brigham Young was called to be God's prophet to lead the Church to safety in a day of sore trouble, that I do so. . . Bro. Rudick

Back again:) I try to not be so negative and I am sorry if I gave that impression. I just try to leave my feelings out of it when I am speaking of what is. When I am speculating I will try to remember to say I think, or I feel or this is what I believe. Which is about only what any one of us can do on a subject anyway other then to do what I try to do most of the time and just say. "The Scripture says So and So." And even when the written Scripture may mention words that I see and hear inside the Holy Temple (which I also consider Scripture), the written word just don't do them justice. . . " and I don't think I had better either.:) Do some of you older folks notice slight. . .Oh, well;) Bro. Rudick

Yeah, I think ya are:eek: I was going to write some things pertaining to that house and all but I have deleted it all twice now. Some may think I am silly for being so shy about going on with this allegory but I really do feel restrained in this direction. But, no. I have no problem with women in the priesthood if that is the Father's will I think it would be a lot easier for the rest of us guys. I have no problem with women in the drivers seat when both own the car:) I even would let her drive if only I owned the car:D Well, you get the idea, I almost mess up again. No Temple stuff, just public relations:p I better go Bro. Rudick

Hummmmmmmmm, I don't want to go into things to openly her but, ummmmm, Years ago when she received her um "key", I am talking about her endowment, she may be concerned that I may not recognize her "key". Bro. Rudick

I think it takes a lot of prayer to grow to the point where we can skillfully tell the difference between the whisperings of the Holy Ghost and the "feelings" of our own sentiments that Jeremiah through the spirit of God writes about. Bro. Rudick