Carl62

I realize the example I gave in my previous post may have been a bit extreme, but I'm just simply trying to find where the boundary lines are on when we're required to listen to our leaders and when we can just use our own judgement on deciding whether it's merely an opinion. I apologize if it may seem at times like I'm coming across a bit antagonistic because I'm honestly not like that when it comes to the church hierarchy, but it just seems like I'm reading/hearing as may different answers to this question as there are posters and I'm just trying to find a simple black and white answer. Too many answers causes too many confusions.

So where do you draw the line on all of this? If you found out that your bishop had just sexually molested your son/daughter, could you still sustain, respect and honor him as your leader? Would you still obey everything he'd ask you to do after the fact? So when do we start using our God-given common sense and begin discerning what is right from wrong, instead of blindly following every bit of direction not knowing whether it's coming from someone who's truly acting under the inspiration of Heavenly Father at that moment or if they're just merely giving you direction based on whether or not they're having a good or bad day.

!!!!!

VERY well said, LM.

Thanks for clarifying, rameumpton.:)

Lost, I apologize if it came across that I was implying anything negative was coming from what the bishop was saying or advising to you. I wasn't sure and that's why you'll notice I had a question mark at the end of that sentence. That's great that you've found a bishop who you can confide in and who gives you positive, helpful advice on your road to recovery:) Keep listening to him and follow everything that he tells you. You just may have the very best ticket to your full blown recovery sitting right in front of you. Best of luck and continue to keep us posted.

There's your whole entire quote, rameumpton. So where did you say anything in it about Jesus forgiving us? Where did I take anything out of context?

Lost, if I remember right, you had already talked to your bishop and all he wanted to do was have a disciplinary court for you? I can't recommend enough of you going to an addiction specialist who will help you and not kick you when you're down. Being made to feel even worse is the LAST thing you need at this stage of the game. You're at a very frail and fragile point in your life where all you should be getting is nothing but positive re-enforcement, and not negative. I have a brother-in-law who went to AA and it was the best thing he ever did! It literally saved his life! If you can get an LDS who is a spiritual, intellectual, and psychological specialist in what it is your going through, then you've got a triple threat to your addiction that can't be beat!:) Again, good luck!

To begin with, what is 'the mess'? If it's some kind of addiction, then find a specialist who can help you with your particular addiction. Actually it would be better to find an addictions specialist/therapist who is LDS, then you can get spiritual help along with the intellectual and psychological.:) Keep VERY close to the scriptures and to your Heavenly Father throughout all this and ask Heavenly Father for strength when you come across periods of temptation/backsliding. NEVER give up. There IS and WILL BE a light at the very end of the tunnel.:) Just have faith and strength. The very best of luck to you and my prayers are with you.

Glass Onion - The Beatles

I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from on this. I NEVER said that we shouldn't confess big sins such as adultery, murder, or any other sins that actually do involve multiple persons. But for me, since we're laying our sins at the feet of a mortal human, then to expect anything less than a perfect, God-inspired judgement should not be unreasonable and that the judgement should not be based on any prejudices or biases. For us as imperfect human beings, that can be VERY difficult to do.

I Saw Her Standing There - The Beatles

EXACTLY!! As a bishop, I believe we owe him that respect of his title, but to imply that he can exercise improper use of power and we're supposed to believe that this is how Jesus would really be talking to us if He were judging us at the moment and that we just simply have to go along with it and not say anything is the part that I find absolutely ludicrous!! As far as people in the church who believe that we're commanded to believe this, I think it's a VERY big percentage.

ONLY?! Are you saying that ONLY confessing to God is not good enough? So are you saying that it's actually more important to confess your sins to the bishop than to God?! You've gotta be kidding me?! So then it is ultimately the bishop who forgives me of my sins and not God? Wow, I didn't know God appointed the bishop to die on the cross for my sins. I will NEVER put THAT much faith in man.

True, the police may not be the ones who initially start it. But that still doesn't mean they're free from the responisbility of any outcome that may result from it. I happen to teach at a music store and I was told by one of the salesman that if somebody steals a guitar from the store that they are not allowed to chase the person once they're out of the store on account of the person possibly running out on the street and getting hit by a car, that the store would then be held responsible for that persons injuries/death. It should be the same for the police officers who have the 'cowboy' mentality because too many innocent people are out here getting killed during high speed pursuits. The police should be responsible in knowing when to back off.

Christ wouldn't give you two radically different responses for the same problem. It would make a LOT more sense if the two Bishops got together and discussed and prayed about this and resolve this with ONE mutual answer, then that way everybody and everything would all be on the same page. The way that this is going down is utterly ridiculous! I know I may get slammed for this, but I honestly believe that God is NOT in support of how this is all turning out. (1 Cor. 14:33)

You have the Savior, then John the Baptist. So where's the 3rd party there? Don't get the connection on that one.

You Are The Sunshine Of My Life - Stevie Wonder

(The) Brigade of Broken Hearts - Paul Evans

ToleranceGirl, you sound like a very nice and kind person. Welcome to this board and I want you to know that you've already got a friend in me just from the warm and friendly, non-judgemental, Christ-like attitude that you seem to have in your opening post. Believe me, you're the kind of people we need MORE of in the church, so please reconsider leaving the church. Have fun and hope to see you more around the board. A welcome hug from Carl62.:)

Shine On Harvest Moon - Art Jones

Thanks for that example ztodd. I agree with you 100% and that makes my point even more. If I had a child who stole something from another child, yes I would definitely want him to go to the student and apologize and make amends. That would make 100% sense and be very fair all-round. Now, would we need to get the principal or even the teacher in on this? I don't think so. What would be the point? If everything can easily be taken care of between you and the party you offended and it's promised that it'll never happen again, then what's the point of bringing in the middle man?

But I guess this is what I'm still wondering about. This kinda goes back to my "Forgiveness from God vs. Forgiveness from The Church" thread where a friend of mine and I were debating on whether you can go just straight to God to recieve forgiveness from your sins without having to go to your Bishop/Stake President, or if the Bishop is our line to repentance from God. So if you don't go to your bishop but are still repentant and ask God for forgiveness, does this mean then that God absolutely will NOT forgive you unless you go through the entire confession process? And if He will forgive you without confessing, then what's the point in going to your bishop? There's been 25 posts on my thread and I STILL haven't got a straight answer to this.

Well umm, it looks like there's gonna be another *cough* pause in the thread 'til we can dig up some more balloons.

Away We Go - Valencia