aj4u

We do agree that James knew who gave him the power to do his works

I don't understand it either. Maybe, the Lord didn't want it to go through. As you can see it is not posted and you wrote it. That is what you say. You still have the gift in an incomplete form. God is the one who decides your outcome; it's not according to your speculation or interpretation. Everyone is building on Christ. Some are building with gold and silver others with wood hay and stubble. There will be some who suffer loss even though they will be saved yet so as by fire. The big question is did you get the gift? I did, and I am working it out between me and God; moreover, I already know that my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life. Do you? You say we don't as well and now you say we do. I should be the one that is confused with you. You are also misunderstanding James. He is not saying you are required to work for your faith or salvation as you have been saying. He is saying that he can prove he has faith with his works. He is saying there is no such thing as faith if there aren't works to back it up. I, for instance, can prove I have faith as well with my works, but I am not teaching or saying we'll be saved or have eternal life after doing all we can along with our best efforts and neither is James. You're telling me now that you don't understand baptism either. I am sorry, but I would never know that from your comments. I use the Bible as my yard stick, and it does me justice Justice.

I got your response through email, but it doesn't show up on the forum. I kept signing on and off, but no dice. Do you know what's wrong?

Never mind it showed up now. Yes, I understand. Some may feel differently about those topics. Actually, that is a different discussion or topic. The kingdom of God is not a matter meat or drink or the paying of tithes or what one's personal view is about those things. There are Christians who pay tithe that are going to heaven, and there are Christians that don't who are going to heaven; there are people who pay tithe going to hell and there are those going that don't. The same goes for food and drink.

I got your response through email, but it doesn't show up on the forum. I kept signing on and off, but no dice. Do you know what's wrong?

I agree, you are entitled to your opinion. There is nothing wrong with doing our best. We should do everything our best and as onto the Lord. What more do you think needs to be done other than our faith and God's grace and our striving to be obedient? They can be mutually exculsive if your doing your best in your own strength to establish a righteous stand with God. Christ must do the work through you for the blood of Christ to take effect on your salvation in any sense of the word! You don't, but we do agree on this statement here, and what we agree on in this statement is not our opinion it is the gospel. “Works don't save us, Christ does.” Well, we are making progress.

There is no identity theft on this forum - You are quote mining. Nevertheless, I will address these points. Please note that some understand perfectly what I have written and mean. This is a difficult topic to articulate, but I will do my best for you because I believe you are sincerely trying to understand. These two statements do not conflict. I said, The one thing we need to do with the gift of salvation is receive it and the other statement is a Bible verse "work out your own salvation with fear and tremblin." In order to have something to work out you have to first receive it. It is like me sending Justice a gift of a model airplane or a puzzle of a beautiful picture. You have received the gift now you need to work it out and assemble the plane or the puzzle . If, however, you didn't receive the gift, you have nothing to work out or put together. There is a difference between working out and working for something. Do you follow so far? This what your saying, not me. You just quoted me saying the one thing we have to do is receive it. That is doing something. Isn't it? NO, and yes to the last part. There are No contradictions. Things are not always as they seem! I am the one who quoted it. Who is throwing it out? Who said anything about me not doing any works? You would say gaining salvation is a success. I would say it is receiving a gift! Yours implies working for it. How can you work for a gift? I am not saying two opposite things; you are. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We don't have to work for faith. You really are confused. I am dead serious! No, but you are one of them! No, that is not what I said. This doesn't have to be a merry-go-round. You are being obtuse!

Yes, I believe you are missing the point. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Our faith has to be in the person of Jesus Christ not in what we do for Him. I am sure you agree that what we have our faith in is significant when it comes to pleasing God. Faith in the Moon, for instance, is not a work of God, but faith in Jesus is pleasing to God. When we have faith and God's grace operating in our lives, good works will be present like where there is smoke, there is fire; where there are webs, there is a spider. If you have a fruit tree that is rooted and grounded in good soil, it is like us rooted and grounded in Christ. The tree will produce fruit because it is a fruit tree that is alive and rooted and grounded in good soil receiving God's water of life. Then we too will bring forth fruit of repentance and good works, BUT we do not get the glory for it. He does because he works through us by faith! Jesus must get the glory because God will not share His glory with another! It is written: "For by grace are ye save through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift NOT of WORKS lest any man should boast!"Ep. 2:8,9

As I had already mentioned Justice, if you review our dialogue I have already answered all your questions. This is your statement: "I'll use my formula again. Belief + Works = Faith aj4u, the belief in my formula inferrs belief in Christ, and therefore the works would be done for the love of Christ. This is the same formula you did not like earlier. Maybe perhaps, with some understanding, it's not so bad? Since it is impossible to have faith without works, it must be this way. Right?" This is not correct. The devils believe and tremble at God's Word. There are those who are possesed by devils and believe, and they do or have works or they may not. That does not mean they have faith and God's grace in operation in their lives. Please look at our previous dialogue a little more carefully.

I am afraid you haven't really understood the Scriptures on faith and works from the Bible. WADR, it is not about a formula. I understand what your saying and I disagree totally, but you haven't even gotten to the point of understanding what I shared. If you understood and disagree that is another story; therefore, I owe it to you to explain futher until you can at least understand. Please don't think I am patronizing your, because I think there is no one as slow as me. I do admire your tenacity to hang in there.

Bless you bless bless you someone understands I am not losing my mind thank you Jesus someone on here can see

Yes, the wheel barrel is a good analogy. I have heard that before, but to the other stuff I say "whuh????"

I this point of the discussion, I would be happy know that you at least understand what is being said.

If we choose our best efforts to follow God's commandments for our right standing with Him then we had better do it perfectly because our salvation will depend on how perfectly we kept His commands for we will be judged by those works and Christ's death on the cross does not apply to us. When we accept Christ we have to take the complete package He offers. Jesus does not need our assistance to save us or the world. We have to meet Him on His terms not ours. That is why it is called the gospel (Good News) we don't have do it in our strength. The battle is the Lords. To follow any other teaching than this is a heresey and another gospel not according to Christ. If we do not do the works of Christ, then there is the absence of faith and God's grace in our lives. It is just that simple. If you are doing your best to earn your right relationship with God, then you are on your own! Good luck!

If we have faith and God's grace working in our lives, we will be manifesting good works, but it is possible to do good things for people and not have the faith necessary for our salvation. It is not possible, however, to have faith and God's grace without good works. If the good works are absent, faith is absent as well. The things I have been sharing regarding works and faith are not my opinions; it is the gospel! Yes, I said we cannot keep the commandments perfectly. If we could, we wouldn't need Christ. I am also saying, Yes, we strive like an athlete to let Christ work through us, but only Christ can finish the work He started in us. If it is indeed He that started the work to begin with. Let me put it this way, you are either trusting Christ to get the job done in and through you or you're trusting in your own strength and best efforts (the mighty arm of the flesh) for your right standing with God. You can't have it both ways. Which way do you take?

If we have faith and God's grace working in our lives, we will be manifesting good works, but it is possible to do good things for people and not have the faith necessary for our salvation. It is not possible, however, to have faith and God's grace without good works. If the good works are absent, faith is absent as well. The things I have been sharing regarding works and faith are not my opinions; it is the gospel!

I have said nothing that goes against the Bible referrences you posted. Yes, we strive like an athlete to let Christ work through us, but only Christ can finish the work He started in us. If it is indeed He that started the work to begin with. Let me put it this way, you are either trusting Christ to get the job done in and through you or you're trusting in your own strength and best efforts (the mighty arm of the flesh) for your right standing with God. You can't have it both ways. Which way do you take?

Now you are making more sense to me. I agree with all except I have a problem with one thing you said: "The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments" This is a big problem not because we shouldn’t keep His commandments. It is the problem that we have to do our best to keep His commandments to know Him. The fact is, my best will never be good enough nor will any human being's effort. The point is, it is impossible to live the Christian life by doing our best. Our best doesn't come near a right standing with God; in fact, it drives us further from Him. That is the diabolical trick of Satan. He destroys using religious counterfeits. I know what I am talking about. Please trust what I say here, and listen carefully and pray at least about it. Ask God to show you where I am at and not anyone else. Our best will never be good enough but Jesus’ best is always good enough. With Him and through Him all things are possible. We don’t get to know God by keeping the commandments and the laws because we cannot do it. We surrender completely to Christ and by faith only through His grace we have the power to be sons and the power to keep from sin and do good works because it is Christ doing it through you. What we do for God is filthy rags, but what Christ does through us is the only thing that is Holy and acceptable to God. If you can only understand this and accept it, you will see a night and day difference in your relationship with Christ.Referrences: Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Tius3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ro. 10 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Very true Your definition of saved to a Christian is correct, but the Telestial Kingdom you or speak of sounds like another name for hell. It will not be a comfortable place for anyone ever. To be absent from the body is to be persent with the Lord (that is if you are God's). Who cares about levels if we are present with the Lord? If we are not present with Him, that is hell, outer darkness, the lake of fire and brimstone where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Let's call a spade a spade. I would beg to differ. It is true we are saved by grace through faith and that everyone will be resurrected some to everlasting glory and others to everylasting shame. There are no lesser kingdoms. Hell is hell; its is the absences of God's light forever; it is a Christless eternity where there is no joy or peace ever. That is true, works to not save us. I am glad that someone can see that, but our works in our own strength will not exalt us either because they are filthy rags in God's presence.Is. 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Now you are making more sense to me. I agree with all except I have a problem with one thing you said: "The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments" This is a big problem not because we shouldn’t keep His commandments. It is the problem that we have to do our best to keep His commandments to know Him. The fact is, my best will never be good enough nor will any human being's effort. The point is, it is impossible to live the Christian life by doing our best. Our best doesn't come near a right standing with God; in fact, it drives us further from Him. That is the diabolical trick of Satan. He destroys using religious counterfeits. I know what I am talking about. Please trust what I say here, and listen carefully and pray at least about it. Ask God to show you where I am at and not anyone else. Our best will never be good enough but Jesus’ best is always good enough. With Him and through Him all things are possible. We don’t get to know God by keeping the commandments and the laws because we cannot do it. We surrender completely to Christ and by faith only through His grace we have the power to be sons and the power to keep from sin and do good works because it is Christ doing it through you. What we do for God is filthy rags, but what Christ does through us is the only thing that is Holy and acceptable to God. If you can only understand this and accept it, you will see a night and day difference in your relationship with Christ.Referrences: Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Tius3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Ro. 10 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

It is, however, appointed unto man once to die, then comes the judgment. Born once you die twice Born twice you die once

Work out your own salvation = Godly Work for your own salvation = death

First of all, God has written his laws on the hearts of all people groups. For example, all people know that stealing is wrong, bearing false witness, killing and adultery Etc. But they don't (or not all people) know who God is. In order for God to work in man to do of His good pleasure, that man must first receive God on His terms. It must be on God terms not my terms, your terms, or some modern prophet's terms. The belief in God comes by hearing the Word of God. When the seed of God's word is received in the heart and watered, God is the only one who gives the increase. It is God who will finish the work He started in me, but if I choose to trust my works in my own strength, then I won't have God's grace. In other words, it will be dead works. What I do for God in my strength cannot compare to what God does through me in His power. This is the night and day difference I have been trying to communicate with you. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow" Do you hear His voice?

Your saying that tithing is a baptismal covenant?

Who is this post in response to?