aj4u

Thank you for answering me. I will look into that!

I really care about my reputation on this forum. It is important that I present accurate information about what I see. Can I be wrong? yes, but I believe with all my heart that the comments are worthy of discussion and explanation. I can respect you for saying "They are good points AJjU, But we don't have any answers." That is all. There are lots of things I don't understand about the Bible, but I find it to be accurate prophectically and historically.

You have a beautiful attitude. I respect that you disagree. I am also being very careful not to say anything negative about what you or anyone believes in Mormonism. I am not making statements for any to agree or disagree with. If there is a disagreement and something I said wasn't right or true, believe me I will apologize so quickly it would make everyone's head spin. I really do appreciate your comments in particular. I would like to see what it is that someone is disagreeing with so I can recant any invalid information. So far, I am told "We told you," but I see nothing explicitly showing me where I am mistaking in the information I presented.

I notice that the Bible says that Messiah would would be born in Bethlehem(Micah 5:2) Mat. 2:1 records the fulfillment of the prophecy, Alma 7:9,10 states "Jerusalem as a city (Nephi 1:4) as was Bethlehem, so this clash or contradiction doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain that to me?

You tell me to make a point as if you don't understand the questions and comments I am asking and saying. Someone else says I come out blazing. This is not about my comming out blazing or my discrediting myself. I don't care about me. I care about the truth! If you don't care about what is true than I am done, but even if one cares about what is true, I'll put up with all the name calling. I thought maybe you could share something that makes sense from my research. Can you show me how plagiarisms and false prophecy is not apparent? If not, why are you calling me names? Is it because I have presented you with good fair questions that you have NO answers for? Do you cover over it by telling me I descredit myself or calling me a troll? What difference does it make to you what I am? The point is what are you going to do with the truth when you see it?

I didn't say I got that from the Book of Mormon, I said the Brigham Young in Journal of Discources vol 1 .p 50:o

nite nite

Read carefully I looked it up and quoted the verses individually: 1 Jn 5: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. This verse is an interpolation in the King James Version that is not in all major manuscripts of the New Testament, but it appears as a paraphrase in 3Nephi 11: 27, 36. So I can tell that the author read the Bible and got information from the KJV. In 2 Nephi 14:5 follows a translation error in KJV (Is. 4:5) “For upon all the glory shall be a defense” Modern translation renders it as it should be “For upon all the glory shall be a canopy” not a defense. The Hebrew word is “chuppah.” 3 Nephi 11:33-34 is almost a direct quote from Mark 16:16. This verse in the KJV is regarded by many Greek scholars as the writings of an over zealous scribe. In Acts 3, Peter paraphrases Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The author of 3 Nephi puts Peter’s classic paraphrased sermon in the mouth of Christ when the Savior was preaching to the Nephites. The problem is at the time Christ was preaching His sermon, the sermon hadn’t yet been preached by Peter. In addition to this, 3 Nephi in verse 23 chap 20 we find Christ attributes Peter’s paraphrased word to Moses as a direct quotation. This makes Christ out to be a liar. The wording is different but the author of 3 Nephi didn’t check back far enough to catch that. The Revised Standard Version renders Is.5:25 correctly “And their corpses were as refuse”…(suchah) not torn. KJV renders it “And their corpses were torn…” 2 Nephi 15:25 follows the KJV translation error. Can you explain this to me? Or will you just continue to call me a troll for not coming up with something different. I consider these fair points for discussion. After all we are dealing with our eternal souls. We are all in God’s business watching for one another in the love of Christ. What if someone is trying to do to you what has been done to me? I couldn’t live with myself knowing I didn’t try to show that there is that possibility. You at least owe it to yourself to check it out. Did it occur to you that God put me here for this reason? Acts 3: 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. Nephi Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: “A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.” Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. D&C section 87 “… At the rebellion of South Carolina…the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain… and then war shall be poured out upon all nations… And…Slaves shall rise up against their masters…and that the remnants…shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.” Though the Civil war broke out after 1844, England did not get involved nor were all nations as prophesied. The slaves didn’t rise up against their masters as stated in the prophecy and the remnants the Indians were themselves vexed by the Gentiles, being defeated only to be placed and confined to reservations. These things appear to go beyond paraphrasing and into plagiarisms from the KJV and unfilled or not possible to fufill prophecy.

I am posting these verses because Justice said it wasn't in there. 3Nephi 11:36 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. Justice please take another look! It is all there as I mentioned. The writing in bold is an interpolation missing from all major NT manuscripts but present in the KJV only. The author of Nephi got it from the KJV. 2 Nephi 15:25 quotes word for word from KJV translation errors and all:Therefore, is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them; and the hills did tremble, and their carcasses were torn in the midst of the streets. Torn is mistranslated; it should read refuse from the word suchah look IS.5:25

3Nephi 11:33-34And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

2Nephi 14:5And the Lord will create upon every dwelling–place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for upon all the glory of Zion shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and a covert from storm and from rain. Parable of the Viney ard

I went to bookofMormononline.net What do you mean it is not mentioned. I gave the references. I saw it with my own eyes. I do not lie about stuff like this or play games. Look up the references in 2&3 Nephi that I posted. Look at the prophecy on the bottom of what I posted. I am going to double check myself. I was careful.

I do not attack you my friend. You are attacking the Bible and what I believe but that is fine. I am open to it. Since the Bible isn't as reliable to you as I see it, lets look at this research. I think it is significant. I do have access to a book of Mormon and these are some on my observations: 1 Jn 5: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. This verse is an interpolation in the King James Version that is not in all major manuscripts of the New Testament, but it appears as a paraphrase in 3Nephi 11: 27, 36. So I can tell that the author read the Bible and got information from the KJV. In 2 Nephi 14:5 follows a translation error in KJV (Is. 4:5) “For upon all the glory shall be a defense” Modern translation renders it as it should be “For upon all the glory shall be a canopy” not a defense. The Hebrew word is “chuppah.” 3 Nephi 11:33-34 is almost a direct quote from Mark 16:16. This verse in the KJV is regarded by many Greek scholars as the writings of an over zealous scribe. In Acts 3, Peter paraphrases Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The author of 3 Nephi puts Peter’s classic paraphrased sermon in the mouth of Christ when the Savior was preaching to the Nephites. The problem is at the time Christ was preaching His sermon, the sermon hadn’t yet been preached by Peter. In addition to this, 3 Nephi in verse 23 chap 20 we find Christ attributes Peter’s paraphrased word to Moses as a direct quotation. This makes Christ out to be a liar. The wording is different but the author of 3 Nephi didn’t check back far enough to catch that. The Revised Standard Version renders Is.5:25 correctly “And their corpses were as refuse”…(suchah) not torn. KJV renders it “And their corpses were torn…” 2 Nephi 15:25 follows the KJV translation error. Can you explain this to me? Or will you just continue to call me a troll for not coming up with something different. I consider these fair points for discussion. After all we are dealing with our eternal souls. We are all in God’s business watching for one another in the love of Christ. What if someone is trying to do to you what has been done to me? I couldn’t live with myself knowing I didn’t try to show that there is that possibility. You at least owe it to yourself to check it out. Did it occur to you that God put me here for this reason? Acts 3: 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. Nephi Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: “A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.” Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. D&C section 87 “… At the rebellion of South Carolina…the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain… and then war shall be poured out upon all nations… And…Slaves shall rise up against their masters…and that the remnants…shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.” Though the Civil war broke out after 1844, England did not get involved nor were all nations as prophesied. The slaves didn’t rise up against their masters as stated in the prophecy and the remnants the Indians were themselves vexed by the Gentiles, being defeated only to be placed and confined to reservations. These things appear to go beyond paraphrasing and into plagiarisms from the KJV and unfilled or possible to fufill prophecy.

I didn't look at any anti - Mormon site. I am now looking at the book of Mormon comparing and contrasting it with Scriptures and history.

You see maybe I should approach my study differently. The Mormons on this forum don't agree with eachother about the Bible. Some feel it supports LDS doctrine and some feel it doesn't clash and some say it is not accurate or dependable. Now you say that you didn't say it doesn't clash. That is kind of what I was hoping to hear, because I see clashing. Some are not being honest about it or are in denial about it. I am very curious as to why. By the way, that was an interesting definitions of a troll.

You have to admit, they make good eating:cool:

That was a nice explanation. Thanks. And I have mentioned my intentions in early posts. I like to have challenging discussions about my faith and walk with God. I don't think doubt is necessarily a bad thing if one is in deception. Well, I know it isn't, but it is painful to face. I am willing to go through it again and again if I am not on the right path. I do think doubt is bad, however, if we doubt God's love for us and His ressurection from the dead. But I can assure you I am sincere and I am trying to understand why you say that the Bible doesn't clash with modern day revelation you put your trust in if in fact you do. I am not treating anyone differently on forum than I would want to be treated. I pray that God has His way with all of us.:)

I mentioned that I would do further research, but I end up caught into chasing rabbits!

I didn't know this. I thought it was a matter of understanding. If you trace back posts you can see why I am led to think this way. So are you meaning to tell me you don't agree with the explaination of faith I have posted? Then, I would like to know why:confused:Instead of being told I am not sincere by one!

I don't mind you attacking what I believe if that is what you want to call it. I realize how tricky the enemy is so I am open to correction, rebuke and reproof in what i believe. I welcome it and cannot understand anyone would fear it! Fear is the opposite of faith!

Wow, you said not me! I thought that you love the Bible enough to consider a problem with anything that didn't align with its core essential beliefs of Christianity. I am not asking you to compromise anything. Have you arrived and stop searching for truth. I am still searching and learning. Do you have all the truth now? You said your belief doesn't clash with the Bible, and I have ask how not in certain stituations and you interpret that as an attack. Is it an attack because you cannot respond or because they do clash? Why is it an attack? Is what I shared not true about the Bible? If not, show me how so I can recant my statements. I hate compromise too and I told you, I expect nothing. Sounds like you have written-me off already. I don't insist on anything. I have been discussing things with certain individuals and you joined in the discussion attacking me with name calling. Why can't we just have a challenging discussion on the facts. Like I intend for it to be. If we arrive to truth, we can all follow it together. I just want to be sure there is a solid foundation to what I take in. I am sorry if this threatens you. You strike me as being insecure now.

You just ain't a whistling Dixie

As per our discusion on faith and works, I found Al Maxey coments on it that I agree with, but I feel he is able to articulater better than me: "What is the gospel? It is not a system of doctrine, a philosophy of life, a compilation of laws, or a code of ethics. It is good news about a person and what that person has done for us in our hopeless, helpless and hapless condition. It is not a message for the saved, but for the lost. It is never addressed to saints, but to sinners. It is never proclaimed to the church, but to the world" (Ketcherside, The Twisted Scriptures). "A careful student of the Galatian letter will at once see that the good news was a proclamation that we are justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of law" (ibid). "This is the gospel which Paul proclaimed in Galatia. It was the good news that Jesus was not as powerless as Greek wisdom and Jewish legalism. Salvation was not hinged upon arriving at wisdom or coming under law, but coming to a person" (ibid). "The gospel is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is the good news, the greatest good news in all the history of sinful man. Paul declared that the message brought to Galatia was 'Jesus Christ publicly portrayed as crucified' (Gal. 3:1). The truth of that gospel, that is, the essence, the basis, the central theme was justification by faith in Jesus Christ" (ibid). · The gospel message of the apostle Paul was, and still is, simply this -- "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). No man can be justified before God by his own meritorious effort under a system of law ... any system of law. The only wage man merits is death, "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). The message of this free gift of God's grace is the gospel. It is ours for the taking by faith in His Son. Paul emphasizes this truth repeatedly throughout his writings, and opposes with great intensity any effort to subvert this message with legalistic thinking. The Gospel means good news to me!

Concluding Thoughts Although I believe the urging of the elders at the congregation mentioned by the reader, where these leaders are seeking to encourage the members to practice tithing, is probably well-intentioned, nevertheless it is misguided, in my view. When seeking to motivate disciples to acts of increasing generosity, don't legislate .... liberate. When disciples of Christ are set free from restrictive LAW, and when they come to appreciate their LIBERTY, liberality will abound in all areas of their walk, work and worship. True generosity of heart can't be legislated; it is a demonstration of a heart in the grip of grace!

Here is an interesting reflection by Al maxey: Tithing Prior to the Christian Era The study of tithing in the Pre-Christian Era is not as simple an exegetical exercise as one might initially suspect. There were various types and categories of tithes, some occurring in Pre-Mosaic times and others enacted during the Mosaic Covenant. Scholars, and even ancient rabbinic sources, do not always agree on the nature and identity of some of these tithes. There is even confusion as to the relationship between tithes and the offering of first fruits. Some say they have a common origin, others declare them entirely separate. It is debated, from the writings of Josephus, whether there were two major Jewish tithes or three (Antiquities of the Jews, book 4, chapter 8, section 22; see the footnote). The safest conclusion is perhaps that suggested in the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible -- "The different references in the OT to tithing probably indicate differing practices in various times and places" (vol. 5, p. 757). In other words, tithing varied greatly in the Pre-Christian Era and is therefore a rather difficult topic to pin down precisely or to characterize in sweeping generalizations. It might also come as a surprise to some readers to learn that tithing was not a strictly Jewish practice. "Tithing was an ancient and general practice among other religions and cultures. ... Giving a portion of one's labor or of the spoils of war was known among a number of nations in antiquity" (ibid, vol. 5, p. 756). The Egyptians, for example, gave two tenths of their harvest to the Pharaoh (Genesis 47:24). The Lydians and Babylonians also practiced tithing. The Syrians forced their people, even those whom they captured, to tithe (1 Maccabees 10:31; 11:35). Many of these tithes, however, were for political purposes; a type of tax imposed by the ruler. In Jewish society, especially during the Mosaic period, the tithe was primarily for religious purposes, and was connected with various offerings (grain, flocks, oil, wine, etc.). The Hebrew word for tithing is asar, and is derived from a word signifying "ten." Thus, tithing involves giving or collecting a tenth part. The corresponding Greek words (dekate and dekatoo) signify the same. In the Pre-Mosaic Era tithing is first mentioned in connection with Abraham, who, upon returning from his victory over the invading Mesopotamian kings, gave a tithe to Melchizedek, the king/priest of Salem (Genesis 14:18-20). In Hebrews 7 this incident is mentioned to demonstrate the superior nature of Melchizedek's priesthood to the Aaronic (vs. 4-10). One also finds Jacob, fleeing from his brother Esau, promising to give a tenth to God if the Lord will prosper him in this dangerous situation with his brother (Genesis 28:20-22). However, it was clearly during the Mosaic Era that tithing truly came into its own, at least for the Jewish people. Moses made it very clear that the tenth part of land, grain, fruit and herd "is the Lord's!" (Leviticus 27:30-33). In the Pentateuch, there was legislative instruction given to the people regarding this practice of tithing -- who was to give, who was to receive, when, where, what and why. These can be studied at: Numbers 18:21-32; Deuteronomy 12:1-18; 14:22-29; 18:1-4; 26:12-15. References to the tithe in the prophets are: Amos 4:4 and Malachi 3:8-10. References to the tithe in the other writings of the OT canon are: 2 Chronicles 31:4-12; Nehemiah 10:36-39; 12:44; 13:5, 12. If any sweeping generalization could be legitimately made, it would be the following: "The aim of all tithing was to acknowledge that all man had belonged to God" (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 5, p. 757). "By giving the tithe the Israelites were declaring solemnly that they were giving a portion back to the Lord who had prospered them. By giving the tithe they also recognized the validity of the priests' and Levites' role as God's representatives and acknowledged their right to receive support for the spiritual service they performed on the people's behalf. The tithe ritual afforded the Israelites an opportunity to remember Yahweh's blessings as He had remembered them, and to imitate their God's care for slaves, the poor, orphans, and widows. The tithe demanded that the Israelites serve their God at a significant cost to themselves. In this amazing system of tithing, Israel's economics became a channel for expressing love to God and love to neighbors, the heart of the Torah (Deut. 6:4-9; Lev. 19:18). Deuteronomy explicitly makes paramount the joy and fellowship of presenting the tithe in a family context (Deut. 14:26). The reforms under Hezekiah (2 Chron. 31:4) and Nehemiah (Neh. 10:36; 13:10-14) emphasized the seriousness of neglecting the support of the Levites, God's appointed ministers" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, vol. 4, p. 863). The attitude God sought in the tithe was an attitude of JOY. "In generous spirit pay homage to the Lord, be not sparing of freewill gifts. With each contribution show a cheerful countenance, and pay your tithes in a spirit of joy. Give to the Most High as He has given to you, generously, according to your means" (Ecclesiasticus 35:7-9 ... an apocryphal work also known as The Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach). Cheerful, joyous giving is also stressed in the NT writings --- 1 Cor. 16:2 and 2 Cor. 9:6-7. Pierre Corneille (1606-1684) captured the biblical spirit well when he wrote, "The manner of giving is worth more than the gift" (Le Menteur, act 1, scene 1). "Paul's exhortation to give with a cheerful heart reflects Deuteronomy's instruction about tithing, which emphasizes the importance of rejoicing -- e.g., Deut. 12:7, 11f, 17f; 14:26" (ISBE, vol. 4, p. 863). Tithing and the Teaching of Jesus "By Jesus' time the Pharisees had legalized the whole affair, and Jesus denounced them for paying attention to minutiae while they ignored the real issue of a pleasing moral life before God" (ISBE, vol. 4, p. 863). Jesus makes only three references to tithing, and they are all with respect to the abuses of the Pharisees -- Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; 18:12. "In the first two passages He contrasts the minute exactness with which the Pharisees observe their less important and external laws of tithe with their careless disregard of the inner and more important virtues of justice, mercy, faith, and the love of God. In Luke 18:12 He illustrates how compliance with external requirements, especially when these are exceeded, as in the case of the Pharisees, and dissociated from the corresponding state of heart, breeds a culpable and overweening self-righteousness" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: Christ and the Gospels, vol. 2, p. 732). "In the time of the NT, changes had taken place. The tithe of mint, anise, and cumin was a prescription of the Talmudic rabbis, which went beyond the intent of Scripture" (Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 5, p. 758). Jesus regarded the tithe as important for the Jewish people, especially as a people under a covenant of Law. However, He also realized the people, as well as their leaders, had woefully failed to perceive the true significance behind these various practices. He further looked to a new spiritual day for the people of God. "Our Lord evidently thought the tithe, as well as the other OT institutions, to be of Divine origin, and binding upon the Jews of His day. At the same time, He foresaw a period when outward observances should give place to the more purely inward, as men should worship the Father in spirit and in truth -- John 4:21-24" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: Christ and the Gospels, vol. 2, p. 732). The perfect example of the true liberality of giving ... the genuine overflow of a loving, benevolent heart ... is seen in Luke 21:1-4, where Jesus commends "a certain poor widow" who "out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on." No ten percent here! This was no mere tithe ... it was the ultimate sacrifice of a trusting soul. Billy Ray Cyrus sings a song in which these lyrics are found -- "All gave some; some gave all." Most all were willing to give a tenth part, but a few were willing to give all. Paul would later commend the Macedonians for their spirit of giving. They gave "not as we had expected," rather "their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality. For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord, begging us with much entreaty for the favor of participation in the support of the saints" (2 Corinthians 8:2-4). Ten percent?! Not likely! But, what motivated such liberality? What led that widow to give all she had to live on? What caused the Macedonians to plead with Paul for the opportunity to give even beyond what the world might characterize as "generous"? The answer is found in Paul's own analysis -- "they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us" (vs. 5). TRUE giving, the type of giving our Lord has always sought, is the gift of SELF. It is not a "tithe" (just a portion) that our Father desires, it is a full self-sacrifice. All other gifts will then flow naturally from that one!! Walt Whitman (1819-1892) summed up this philosophy perfectly when he wrote, "When I give, I give myself" (Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself"). Jesus lived and died under Law, during the Mosaic Era, thus He upheld the directives regarding tithing. Nevertheless, He began to call His disciples to a higher perception and practice; sharing with them the reality that something greater than LAW was quickly approaching -- a time when true acts of worship would transcend legislation, and would be spiritually offered up to the Father (John 4). The religious leaders of Jesus' day stressed legal exactness. Jesus repeatedly informed them, however, that they had completely missed the point of what God sought. As the Christian Era dawned this would increasingly come to light. Tithing in the Early Church "It is admitted universally that the payment of tithes, or the tenths of possessions, for sacred purposes did not find a place within the Christian Church during the age covered by the apostles and their immediate successors" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: The Apostolic Church, vol. 4, p. 594). Centuries later some tried to reinstitute a tithe for the church, but "leaders in the church (like Irenaeus and Epiphanius) showed the arguments" of these who sought to bind the tithe upon their brethren "were not valid. Rather, freedom in Christian giving was emphasized" (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, vol. 5, p. 758). "In all the cases referred to (in the NT church), the essential freedom of Christian action is implied. There is no legal code formulated for the guidance of those whose love of the brethren is thus tested. On the contrary, each one has the choice and determination as to his own attitude (2 Cor. 9:7). There is no external compulsion to detract from the joy, or to set a mechanical boundary to the inclination, of the Christian's giving to the poor. We thus recognize the truth of Irenaeus' words, 'Whilst they (the Jews) used to hold the tithes of their property as consecrated, they, on the other hand, who have grasped freedom, dedicate to the use of the Lord all things which they possess, giving joyfully and freely in greater abundance, because they have a greater hope' (Against Heresies)" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: The Apostolic Church, vol. 4, p. 594-595). I have to agree with the insight of the early church author Iranaeus of Lyons (ca. 125-202 A.D.). There was, and is, no need for a tithe among the disciples of Christ. Indeed, it is contrary to our very freedom to express our love and devotion without legislation and limitation. Ten percent is much too constraining for the genuine disciple; it is too limiting. Those with a spirit of liberality in their giving will far exceed a mere ten percent. Giving partakes of GRACE, which is boundless, and thus must never be restricted for New Covenant disciples, who abide within that grace, to a mere ten percent. Where grace abides, giving abounds!!! "Though the NT does not prescribe the tithe in a legal sense for the follower of Christ, yet he is taught to give systematically, bountifully, and cheerfully (1 Cor. 16:2; 2 Cor. 9:6-7)" (The Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, vol. 2, p. 1719). The only place in the inspired writings pertaining to the Christian Era (post-Pentecost) where the word "tithing" appears is Hebrews 7, which "shows the superiority of the Melchizedek priesthood to the Levitical" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words). Some have suggested, as the reader pointed out in his email to me, that since Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, and since one far greater than Melchizedek is here (Jesus Christ), therefore all men are still somehow obligated to pay tithes to this greater Priest. Such reasoning, however, misses the whole point of Christian liberty, the grace of giving, and the reality taught in Hebrews that the old has been supplanted by the new! We have moved beyond legislating portions, and have entered the era of liberty to give fully and freely. Seeking to bind tithing is nothing less than a return to law and a forfeiture of freedom; it legislates giving, rather than allowing it to be a liberal, limitless expression of a loving heart. Binding tithing upon those who are free in Christ is a return to LAW, which Paul warns in Galatians 5 can cause us to fall from grace and be severed from Christ. Why limit giving to a tithe, when our freedom allows us to be so much more generous and gracious, all to the benefit of others and the glory of God? It makes no sense whatsoever to follow such a course. In all of the apostolic writings during the time following the establishment of the church "there is no evidence of a giving which is not free and spontaneous and which has not a moral and spiritual basis. No allusion is made to the necessity for the continuance of the Mosaic law of tithes. ... The relation between tithes and Christian giving may be apprehended as that between the law and the gospel as incentives and forces in life. It is the relation between a legal enactment which enforces by objective sanctions and a spiritual ideal which draws out all that is best and highest from those who recognize the significance of the blessedness of self-sacrifice for the sake of others" (Dr. James Hastings, Dictionary of the NT: The Apostolic Church, vol. 4, p. 595). Reflections from Al Maxey: