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What evidence do I need to respond to. And all I have for evidence is the Bible.

Okay

We are called friends because we do what He commands. To follow His commands we make ourselves slaves to righteousness as Paul mentions. If we are slaves to righteousness for Christ sake we are His friends and we are free from sin, but if we are slaves to sin, as I once was, I am free from righteosness. Do you need the Bible references or can you take my word for it?

I believe they have gone through great persecution and doubt not, but so have the Jews that doesn't make them right or me. That is why I just trust the Scripture only.

This I have done! And I am and you are sincere, but one of us is sincerely wrong. Why would God show you the right way and not me? He is not a respector of persons.

There is no need to watch me so carefully. I will be transparent. I have nothing to hide. I have never said anything against your prophet Joseph Smith or any Mormon leadership. You were just reading between my lines. I, on the other hand, was told that I was not discussing anything, and that I am merely expressing opinion when everything I shared was Scriptural. From now on, I will carefully quote every Scripture. My post, however, will be fewer and further between to do it. I have never attacked any person on this forum or accused anyone of being insulting. I was told that I was patronizing and below the level of understanding LDS doctrine. Justice said he was slow so I explained to him the implication of a certain Scripture Heb 1 in such a way that someone who is slow could understand. I thought I was being thoughtful and sharing in love. Instead I am accused. I have ask many questions some about LDS doctrine and that haven't been answered. I will make one more post after this after looking at the website Ogre gave. Than I will stop responding or posting for a day to pray and compose myself. I think we should be able to attack each other's doctrine but not the person. This is a beautiful forum and it has so much potential to strengthen people's faith. I love you all. I could not sleep for three nights and their are tears on my pillow. I am on it because God directed me here. I love challenges and to give challenges. I will now share my testimony. People have used it against me in the past, but I trust you are not like that. David Berg was considered to be a prophet. I was in a cult called The Children of God. I just wanted to grow in God. I was born and raised a Catholic, and I was faithful in all I knew to try to grow in the Lord. I joined this group because they were living like the NT disciples. They forsook all their worldly possessions and parted them to each member of the group or the governing body as every man or woman had need. I was young and had a good job working for Con Ed in New York. I had a nice new car and lots of money saved, because I lived with my parents and didn't have to pay rent. I also had many possessions. For my age, I was wealthy compared to my friends. I gave it all up to join the group and went against my family and friends believing that my family was the enemy (A man’s foes shall be those of his own house hold as Jesus said) to keep me from serving the Lord. I felt challenged to give up all I had. As painful as it was, I did it because I wanted God to be first in my life not an organization or a person on earth - just Him. That was the start of my horrors. I prayed night and day for confirmation that I was doing the right thing, and a sister came over to me to share a verse that I thought God inspired her to do. It encouraged me that I wasn't in a cult. I had lots of money but gave it to them; now, I am without old friends and family. I was poor - a beggar in the streets peddling. I had to go out every day to pass out literature to make money for the community of believers. I sometimes went on road trips to live by faith like in the book of Acts and stayed with whoever would take me in. Once we slept in a hallway because we couldn't find a place. We usually went out in twos or threes. When we studied the group's prophet's work (David Berg /claimed to be the End Prophet), false doctrine mixed with truth would come out. It was called the new wine (JWs might call it new light). We had to be new bottles to handle it, and if it stumble us, we were considered to be old bottles that burst or immature Christians. No one wanted to be an old bottle. I found a woman (she found me) and married her, but the group believed that the disciples have all things in common including spouses, and I had to share mine. I could only do it because I was brainwashed to believe God wanted me to. The scars run deep. I couldn't tell this story to you in person without breaking down. I can’t describe the mental torment I went through. I wanted to leave the group so badly, but where could I go? I believed that I would be leaving God’s will. I was a slave or prisoner to false doctrine and trapped. My family disowned me. I lost my daughter because of how much that experience screwed up her head. My wife was a basket case. We wanted to have a large family, but she got some kind of infection from the lifestyle we thought God wanted us to live. We never had any biological kids. The step daughter I lost was my wife's before she joined the group or knew me. My wife was in it for over a decade and I for 6 or 7 years. One day, an ex-member left me something to read, and the Lord spoke to me through Revelation 2:18 on what Jesus said to the church of Thyatira. When I got out, I thought and asked "Lord why did you let this happen when I was only trying to please you?" Why did you forsake me? I felt like an empty shell of a person. But I said to the Lord “I will still trust you Lord” as weak as I was - that’s all. And I can tell you that after that, I continued to have profound disappointments. For instance, after my wife had surgery for her damaged body from that group, she got pregnant and missed carried and did two other times as well after much prayer. Most anyone would tell me I was a fool to keep on trying to live for God, and I felt like a fool for Christ. If someone said, "I was a fool", I would say "Yes, but who are you a fool for?" So, I have chosen with my free will to continue being a fool for Christ, and I have chosen with my wife to continue to trust Him and not let that stupid organization separate me from the love and hope I have within me. I don't expect JWs or Mormons to understand my choice to continue to trust God even if He kills me. Because I believe he could raise me up again. God has never really failed me. He has strengthened me through this. The things (as Paul says) I suffered here are not worthy to compare to the glory I will witness one day. I do not want to throw away my confidence that has a great recompense of reward. I am a soldier for Christ. Even if I am a wounded soldier, I am still a soldier, and I am His and have been bought with a price. I will not let another man or organization steal my crown. Don’t let them bring you down. When you want to serve the Lord you are entering a battleground. It is war against spiritual wickedness in high places. We have to fight the good fight of faith and the gates of hell won’t prevail. Jesus knows what I am going through. He even said, “Father why have you forsaken me.” I ask God for forgiveness about my not trusting Him. He was waiting with open arms. He will never leave me or forsook me and never will. He would rather go to hell with me than go to heaven without me. When you have Jesus in your heart, you are prefect before God. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. God wants to use your experience to heal others. That is what I believe. Your time was not wasted in WT. God has all you pain and suffering documented. He will repay them for the deception in your life, and God will bless you for all you suffered for Him by restoring all the worms have destroyed. I might be a product of my past, but I don't have to be its slave. Job said, "Lord even if you slay me yet will I trust you." It is not too late if you are reading this. God bless and kept you in Jesus name. I now know that in order to bring about the beauty of the candle something had to go to ashes. Jesus has given me beauty for ashes.

But is it propaganda? I can receive from you that my delievery needs work. I am still new to this forum, and I am work in progress. I admit I am strong willed in my understanding of Scripture, but that in itself doesn't mean what I have shared is wrong! I'll give you the way I have shared is, but that is all you can have. You are also confusing. Now you say don't modify which I have already done because you love when I scream about false prophets!

That was a good post Bro. Rudick, My point is that we should not be focusing on exaltation, but just on being faithful servants.. It's not to deny any Scripture you qouted. I agee with it all! Good night all, I am going to back off tonight. I am not even seeing clear trying to keep up with all the posts.

The verses I specifically wrote down speaks of David Berg. I made no comparsion with Joseph Smith nor do I care to be Joseph eventhough that is my middle name or David on this forum. I was told that I needed to come up to the next level, and that is why I can't understand LDS doctrine. This seems like a good case of dishing it out but not being able to take it to me. I will modify that post if it brothers you. It is written"Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them." Sorry if I came across offensively, that was not my intention. Now, I do have intention of understanding LDS doctrine. Who made you my judge, and for the sake of understanding, can you explain to me how Jesus can be the spiritual brother of His own creation (Satan) since you brought up my quotes? Another question, do you think I am screwed up?

Vort quotes me saying: "You almost have it. Jesus and God are distinct in person. We agree; however, pay very close attention if you want the true understanding of Scripture regarding this matter. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory." And in so many words he tells me that Biblical truth is not welcome on this forum, and that I should pontificate all I want, but this is not the place. Let me say this to Vort. WADR, I know this is an LDS forum, and I haven't broken any form rules. I said nothing disrespetful about Joseph Smith or any believer here. If you are threaten by Scriptural authority prehaps the problem is with you. I respect Justice, Bro Rudick and the others, because they welcome the challenge by trying to justify their doctrine. My purpose here is as I mentioned to be challenged and to challenge for the purpose of spiritual growth. I am growing in faith here so why aren't you?

Faith and works is not about our exaltation; it is about Christ and us being faithful servants and slaves to righteousness.

You almost have it. Jesus and God are distinct in person. We agree; however, pay very close attention if you want the true understanding of Scritpture. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. Now, He is also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God. "The Word was God" Do you fully understand the ramification of this? Many on this forum have a lot of unlearning to do before this can be grasped. If you can understand this, you are well on your way to understanding that all the Scriptures are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. And G-d says AMEN!References: Heb. 1

Take easy we don't want to loose you here. Let me try and explain. I agree with charity being love in action, but I said, to be technical it is more than that. I didn't say it was wrong. I simply elaborated on it. What i disagreed with was your saying the love implies a feeling. I said not to me. Love is an action that is if your referring to the purest sense of the word like I was. Otherwise, love is not love! I hope this clarifies the issue once and for all.

Yes, I agree!

You were one of the the first to bring it up. There burden is on you to give the sources. I'd like to see yours from the Bible. Are you serious?

When I use the term cult, I mean it just as bad as it being the occult eventhough there is a difference.

I cannot believe that that one comment has gone this far. I am almost sorry I mentioned it:deadhorse:

Yes, If you say so, but I was the first to bring up Charity is love and Justice was the first to say no it isn't. According to my understanding, there is no mistake about it. Are you wanting make something of it? Just joking:lol:You are loved:dude:

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. 18For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? 19Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. 20The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. 21I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. 23Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. 25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. 28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. 29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

David Berg was a false prophet. Woe, unto self-appointed prophets all of them.

There is a huge difference (Life and death) between faith in Christ and regiously following unecessary rules and laws that God never put on us in the new covenant. Those who follow the law and rules as a means to being right with God have been bewitched as Paul said in the Bible. They have falling from God's grace and will be judged on whether they have followed the law perfectly or not. It is doctrine of foolishness.

I THINK i agree with that! If that is what Justice means, I mostly agree! But it is more than that still, if we are wanting to be technical. It is faith that works by love in God who is Love in action that makes the significant difference spiritually, because there are not only different types and love; there are different faiths as well. Even the ungodly can love a friend in action, but that doesn't make a right standing with G-d!

Truth Seeker too and you are having constructive dialogue. Good job.

Therefore, Charity is Love. Give it up Justice.If your going to disagree with me at least have a point:rolleyes:I think I understand the point your trying to make if your saying love in action! When I said love, I meant it in action otherwise it is not love! Love is not feeling! (As I mentioned, that is faith that worketh by love)