aj4u

I know, but this modern revelation cannot be backed up with God's word in the Bible. Anyone can come up with modern prophecies and revelation. All we have is the Bible to check to see if it be from God. God's church is huge worldwide and the only ones willing to believe this modern day revelation you speak of are Mormons. God has not shown the majority of Christendom this new thing you speak of. That is why there are so few that believe it. God always announces in the ancient word of prophecy any new thing He plans on doing. It has not not been announced in the ancient writings. I don't see a hint of Joseph Smith, golden plates and the Americas in the Bible. Every prophet in the Bible that was from God gave a word and it happened exactly as stated. CT Russell of the Watchtower society is the prophet for the JWs. His prophecies have failed consistently and so has David Berg's. Joseph Smith has given prophecy that have not and can never be fulfilled as well. Why should I see Mormons any different than JWs who also believe they are the only true church for this generation and that Jesus is a created being rather than the creator? This is not meant to disrespect your believe, but it is my looking after my soul and searching the Scriptures to see if what you say is so. I am also hoping that you can search the Scriptures to be sure of why you believe you have the truth and all of Christianity is wrong. If Joseph Smith is God’s new modern day prophet, all of Christianity is wrong for not honoring him as such including myself.

It is written, "Except ye become as a child ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

John is right, but it can be done. Do you want to make me work that hard to prove it? Let me give you what I know already. In Heb. 1 God calls Jesus God "But thou Oh God is a Kingdom..." Now I hope we can agree that the father is God. The Bible says "God is Spirit." God is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit (Holy+Spirit) Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This verse means He is not flesh and bone. The way I see it. When in the Book of Acts Ananias and Sapphire lied to the Holy Spirit, they were told they lied to God and dropped dead on the spot. The apostle Philip asked Jesus to show him the Father and he would be happy. Jesus said, "How long have I been with you and you still don't know me?" He that has seen Jesus has seen the Father! Jesus is called Immanuel (God with us). Will that do? I can give you more. I am sure you are reading the Bible, but we are both seeing differently; in fact, Mormons are a very small minority of professing Christians along with JWs that cannot see that in Christ Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead. Just what I have mentioned alone speaks volumes that Jesus is God our Savior and creator (Not our older brother) according to the Bible). How about you give me chapter and verse where Jesus is our elder brother? The Bible states we are Jesus' creation. How can He be the brother to His own invention and creation made for His pleasure? When we accept Him on His terms, he adopts us as sons and gives us power to become and remain His sons and daughters. Until we are born again, we are only God’s creation and not His children. Those that know not Christ are of their father the devil.

Saturday and Sunday Sabbaths are not important issues. The Bible says that. The Bible is silent about dipping and dunking. There isn't a dramatic or important difference between Trinitarian views and the Godhead that I noticed. The differences between the three kingdoms have never concerned me nor did it the apostles in the Bible as to our eternal standing or relationship with God; however, knowing who Jesus is makes the difference between eternal life and no life in Christ. Jesus ask his disciples "Who do you say I am?" If we don't know Jesus we don't have life John 17 : 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. If another man dies for our sins, that mans death was in vain, and we will recieve no salvation or eternal life. I would say knowing who Jesus is is the the main issue here. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things in all Scripture. Jesus is God in the flesh!:)

Snow, it is not my view of salvation; it is the Biblical view. I just accept it. I do not accept the term “Trinity” because it is not in the Bible, but I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have already answered your question. It seems you are not happy with it or you want a positive response according to your assumptions of what I believe. Is that what your trying to do? Jehovah Witnesses oppose the trinity concept as well as you, but their Jesus is Michael the archangel. To me, their Jesus is not the one I trust or believe in for my salvation; therefore, they have a different Jesus. Do you agree? Just what is it you are disagreeing with of what I said? I'll see to it if I cannot back up what I said with the Scriptures from the Bible. If you can convince me through the Bible that Mormonism is the way I should go, I am yours or up for grabs. IMHO, you seem to be holding back what you really feel about my views.

I don't understand what your saying "NO" to and why you ask the question above.

I claim not to be disrespectful to any one individual and I try not to be disrespectful to any's beliefs. It is, however, a very difficult task because there are differences. Now, you are right Jesus is Jesus and that will never change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever just as God is God. On the other hand, there are those who believe God is the sun or part of creation. There are those that worship the creation rather than the creator. This doesn't change who God really is, but the sun god is not the god I serve. Jehovah Witnesses respect Jesus as being Michael the archangel. I do not belief that Jesus is an angel. I believe the Scripture teaches He is God. Muslims respect Jesus as a great prophet, but not as God or the Son of God (God the Son). I believe it is important to know who Jesus is. To know Him is to have eternal life. I believe, for instance, that He is not my elder brother who is cut from the same pre-existing spiritual cloth as I. There is no Biblical support for these views of JWs, muslims and many other groups. Is there? If there were, that would be a different story for me as it is for you. If Jesus is your spiritual brother and Jesus is not mine, what is it that you find irritating or disrespectful about what I share sincerely from my understanding of the Bible?

I thought I had answered your questions. Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, and I have never pushed the term, but the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned. I believe that The Father is God, The Son is God and The Holy Spirit is God as the Bible states. There is nothing to be embarrassed about. I am, however, a little reluctant to answer what I consider to be leading questions.By the way, you didn't answer my question either: Are there two Firsts and Lasts?

The voice of truth tells me a different story!

You are asking me questions based on your assumptions and expecting me to respond as if I have a non-Biblical view of God as you imply I make dishonest statements. I do not attack anyone’s sincerity, but that doesn’t mean someone can’t be sincerely wrong. I believe that there are things being revealed to God's people on a daily basis, but it is never outside of God’s word. His word has been established forever. Men inspired by the Holy Spirit have written the Bible. There is no need for any restoring to God’s word and or the gospel of Jesus Christ as written two thousand years ago. That doesn’t mean, however, translations of the Holy Scriptures cannot be improved on, but any new revelation had not dare go against God’s already established word or as Paul says “let it be accursed.” We are commanded to search the Scripture to test the spirit of the new things we hear. I simply obey this Scripture and test the spirit of what I hear. I do not believe that God can be figured out through simple logic as one mentioned. We are all God’s creation but we are not all God’s children. The Devil has his children (like Jesus said of the religious rulers “Ye are of your father the devil”). According to the Bible, Jesus is God. He is of the same exact substance as God and yet He is distinct in person. I think it is foolish to believe that can be understood through simple logic. Jesus claims He is the First and the Last and so does God. Are there two First and Lasts? By the way, I like your avatar.

You might consider this beating a dead horse, but I don't because I don't really understand the same way as Mormons from the terms you use, and the way you see Scripture is different than that of traditional Christianity; Moreover, it turns into a different maze when you appear to say things that any traditional Christian would agree with on the surface, but really mean something else. The biggest issue with me is how you and I see Jesus. We are seeing two different persons. For instance, your Jesus is your elder brother, but my Jesus is my Lord and God. There is an irreconcilable difference. Don’t you think so? I think the difference is a question of life and death.

I was hoping you could say

I agree with that

As I have mentioned, If one is not born again, baptism means nothing. Jesus said go into all the world and baptize in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, He didn't say put your faith in baptism or any works. The outward show of baptism means nothing if there isn't an inward change. That is the whole point. It is like one saying their marriage vows with no commitment with no inward change or intent to live in Christ. The focus shouldn't be on baptism (works) it should be on faith in Christ. That is what Paul contends as well. Baptism comes after one believes and accepts the Lord by faith, but teaching people to trust in baptism as the means to a correct relationship with God have grossly missed the mark and don’t really understand the gospel.

That is kind of you John I appreciate it. You see I don't mind being baited. I have not look at material for the third time on the internet against Mormonism, but I am being tempted to peak. Seriously, I wouldn't even be interest in seeing anything from people that hate Mormons. I am not afraid of the baptism questions I have answered them several times, but I'll be happy to repeat it. I can try to stay on topic, If I go off topic, please, understand that it is a blunder of the mind and not of the heart. Please understand I really think I need to take a break not just for the sake of others for me as well. But I do have another question to take my break with in 3 Nephi 8:9,10,14 and 9:4,5,6,8 where cities and inhabitants were down under the waters. Are there archeological evidence for these? if not, Why?

PS if anyone is interested in sharing more with me, I'll take PMs, but for now I am done posting!

Since you seem to represent a few others sentiments, I think the best Christian charity I can show is to stop posting for a while. Because I have been studying, and I have even more questions of historical anachronisms and contradictions in LDS doctrine that will only perpetuate the on going situation. Apparently, since I appear to be mark a troll in your eyes, it doesn't matter how good my points are they will not be considered without animosity and skepticism; so, there is no point. I feel like I am judge for the very same thing you do. You see all of what us Christians (Non-Mormons) believe and churches we attend as an abomination to the Lord, but you don’t come out with it; yet deep in your heart it is what you believe. I am one of the few that come out with it calling a spade a spade by letting you know that is what you believe and that is deception. I would rather you come out with it explicitly instead of hating me for being truthful to you. I say hate because there is no love in name calling and judging someone whose intentions are to bring you the only truth I know. It is my job and mission in life to do what I do. So let God now judge between us, and those who share your sentiments. There have been some Mormons on this thread that have shown love toward me. Nevertheless, I wish you to be blessed with the knowledge of truth even as I pray for myself in this. I will post again in the near future Lord willing.

If this were a contradiction, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Jesus and James never said our works apart from God’s grace and our faith would save us. James said, "Show me your faith without works, and I'll show my faith by my works" If someone just says they have faith and God's grace and there are no works, that means they really don't have faith. That is all he was trying to say. If someone has God's grace in operation, works will come naturally as a result of their faith. It is sought of like a tree that is rooted and grounded in Christ. It due season fruit will appear. On the other hand, if we are putting trust in following the commands covenants baptism tithing and all other ordinances, then we have falling from God's grace and go about to establish a righteousness of our own. This what Paul taught. He was directly chosen by Jesus to share God's heart on the matter. That is why Paul said you did run well who bewitched you to follow the law as a means of salvation? Don't get me wrong. Good works are good, but it is the enemy to what is best. That is not the good we do for the Lord; it is the good that the Lord does through us by His grace and our faith in God's word through the Bible, but we must turn from anything that clashes with God's word from the Holy Scripture or we have been had by Satan big, big, big time. What we are discussing here is a matter of spiritual life and death. I have been transparent with you. Other Christians may hold back some punches, but I don’t. Those Christians might have more wisdom then me for holding back. I cannot judge, but they don’t disagree with the message I share because they know it is the heart of the gospel. I am not forcing or taking anythhing out ot context. I speak the truth in love. If a prophet, just once says something that doesn't come to pass, he is not to be taken seriously. God says so. It doesn't getting any higher in authority than that. Jesus didn't give a false prophecy. If he did, He wouldn't be God! Love is not an emotion it is an action. Emotions can accompany the action but they don't always. As I mentioned, it is written: "The just shall live by faith" not by feelings or emotions. Feeling make a good servant but a very poor leader.

Yes, I would like to discuss it, but your last commment wasn't necessary! I'll try to get back to this. There was another post that caught my eye first about contradictions in the Bible about Jesus, James and Paul's view on eternal life by grace that are not contradictions at all. I believe you posted that. Let me start with that. By the way, I started this thread the last time I checked; therefore, there has been no trolling going on here.

I am not sure what you mean by this, and what are congregationalist attacks like? I didn't say I was a congregationalist; I said my major doctrine world view does not go against the congregation of churches in general. That means, if you can understand me, you can understand what you consider to be an abomination to the Lord in the way of us Christians who are not Mormons in all the churches world-wide. Instead of feeling attacked maybe you could see it it as an opportunity to learn and share your faith.

If your going to follow the law of tithing as many of my Christian brethern do. Please note that it is not a charitable act as you mentioned. When one tithes, they are not even giving. It is something that belongs to the Lord not you. I do not believe that 10% belongs to the Lord. I believe all I have does. I believe being a disciple requires that we forsake all the we have (ALL)because it is all the Lords. I don't mean forsake all symbolically; I Mean do it literally. Luke 14:33 I did it, and it caused my brothers and mother to disown me. I was like the rich youn ruler at the time and Jesus challenged me with forsaking all to follow him. I don't have time to get into the problems, but I have a feeling that we are only touching the tip of the ice-berg. I can't put my finger on everything, but there are major difference and many similarities, but the differencews are of major concern. With me you have a chance to see through the eyes of typical fundamental Christianity (Congregation of Churches world-view) All Christians agree with the basics of my doctrine in this area. They may not agree with my delievery, but that is another issue. I don't even agree with myself in those areas, but I am sincerely a follower of Jesus Christ. The two largest World religions are Isalm started by vision and an apperaring to Muhammad and Judo/Christianity that started with the Catholic Church after the Apostels. These major world religion are not considered to be cults, but there are many sects that shoot out of it that are such as JWs, Unification church, Christian Science and many others. What really gets me is that you think you have something I don't and that I need. Your view, also, of who Jesus is disturbs me greatly.

It will end. The only thing that is endless is eternity

The Bible commands (says) go ye into all the world and preach the gospel baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If it were not necessary, it wouldn't have been mentioned. On the other hand, it is not always possible to baptize someone. Does that mean they can't be saved or have eternal life? NO, of course not. Baptism is like a marriage vow. The commitment has to be there (born-again) first otherwise it is just a ritual that means nothing. I have answered this question many times and in many ways. The thief on the cross didn't get baptized, but still received eternal life. I believe in being baptized and I was, but I put my trust only in Christ for the salvation of my soul not in any works, baptisms, tithing or any other such things. I am hid in Christ that is what baptism means to me. I died with Christ and now I am a new creature. He took my sin on him and His righteousness has come on me because I put on and receive Christ as the Lord of my life; therefore, I stand perfect before God because of Christ in me the hope of glory! The just shall live by faith. Faith is better than a known path. God is still completing the work He started in me. The path of the just is as a shinning light - It shines more and more until the perfect day. When God looks at me He sees Christ in me who is my hope, my ressurection, my life, my salvation and the lifter of my head! I live by faith and I don't trust my emotions or feelings, but God's word is always true.

Yes, that I agree with!

Okay, I will not use that term again.