Suzie

I was reading an article today when a line caught my attention: Why Mormon mothers are superior (or not) | Mormon Times I am just linking the source but I would like to focus on whether or not you think larger than average families have( as their main strategy) selective neglect.

I just wanted to say I will take a lil break from this thread. Thanks.

That's what we're trying to figure out, among other things.

I think he is probably talking about the teachings in the early days, by the Prophets.

Examples? Minimize it? Actually, I think it does all the opposite because we're talking about a Prophet using his own personal bigotry to deprive thousands of men and women around the world from receiving specific blessings with regards to the Priesthood, Temple ordinances such as sealings that are so sacred and important in LDS theology. It means that the personal stories of brothers such as Elijah Abel and sister Jane James (I posted her story in this thread) are absolutely unjust and their desire to be sealed and get their own endowments denied based on the possible racist views of the leaders at that time. Minimize it? No way. Like them, there are THOUSANDS of these wonderful people who lived worthy lives yet they were deprived of enjoying these blessings. I believe if we put ourselves for a minute in the shoes of these faithful people, study their stories and we don't see them just as a nice story in a magazine or book but we truly comprehend the implications of the blessings they were denied, then we will see this in a completely different fashion. Why does it matter? Do you think it matters whether this Church is led by revelation in all issues or by a policy chosen by men depending on their own personal views? I am hoping you are not really asking this seriously. I believe all revelations and policies should be examined, and pray about it for confirmation. I don't think is healthy at all to just follow something out of tradition or blind obedience. What do you exactly mean by "doctrinal case against" the priesthood ban?

Yes, I said that maybe we both posted at the same time (I was doing an edit on my post). I stand by it. Thanks for the debate.

Too bad that you are seeing this only through one perspective. It's not about being dishonest and "save face" (I didn't not write that so please don't add words I haven't written neither assume "intent" when you really don't know) I don't propose anything. I think if the ban was a mistake... by the Church denouncing it now would open a new can of worms that would create hate and hostility towards the Church and its past leaders. It would question the Church in so many levels, it would affect thousands of people worldwide, wounds from the past would once again be open and whatever healing process that took years to achieve will be completely and utterly wasted. It IS indeed naive to think that the Church would be willing to sacrifice so much to make a statement. Can you see now what I mean? Edit: Also, entirely through a PR perspective do you think the Church would be willing to make a statement and repudiate the policy knowing the effect that will have on the media? Can you imagine? This is not about dishonesty or saving face, it is also a matter of media scrutiny, PR, image, etc. The Church has worked very hard to be in the position it is right now, no way on earth they would sacrifice that.

At present time, the official position is "we don't know". It wasn't always the case.

So basically we are saying it was followed out of tradition? That's even more concerning. Identifying Joseph Smith as the originator of the position isn't new. Geoge Q. Cannon was of the thought that it originated with the Prophet even though he never heard him saying but was "told" by John Taylor who also did not hear him saying it. I won't even mention Zebedee Coltrin whose memory (as explained earlier in this thread) proved to be unreliable so unless we can come up with some sources, I would say it was Brigham Young the originator. Well, I don't think any of us can claim it as "fact" unless it is revealed to us by the Lord however weighing the evidence I lean towards that possibility, also the fact that President Kimball himself saw that possibility (as previously quoted) makes you wonder.

It seems like we are seeing this completely different. I am reading this and re-reading it and yet I don't see what you see: That the Lord was behind the placement of the ban, Yes, it survived many generations but again...does it mean the Lord was behind it? I have serious doubts. Did they have a handbook of instructions in that era? If you take into consideration the Adam-God theory and the blood atonement (both taught by Brigham Young) and the fact the Saints received the teaching by a PROPHET of the Lord and believed it as doctrinal...Taking into consideration his role and authority..Would you consider that the Prophet was leading the Church astray? Why/why not? I have never seen any documents/sources that show that Joseph Smith Jr. is the originator of the ban. If you do have some references, I would be glad to check it. Thank you. But those circumstances and whether it came from the Lord or not is what I'm looking for. Yes, the Lord possibly allowed several generations to maintain the ban and having read how some members of the Church at that time reacted when the ban was lifted one can understand a little more. We should also take into consideration the views on race of those Prophets you make mention of. You really confused me there. My point is that the Church can never repudiate something that was never doctrinal in the first place. In my opinion is quite naive to think the Church then or even now would come up and say the ban was a mistake and repudiate it when thousand of worthy males (and females in the case of temple ordinances) were affected and deprived from the Priesthood.

Also I would like quote Spencer W. Kimball from Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball 6/15/63: It seems to me that President Kimball himself was open to the possibility of a "mistake or error" with regards to the ban.

So are you saying Abraham, Jacob, etc practiced polygamy without God's sanction?

I discussed Elijah Abel in one of my earlier posts and the fact that his mission was restricted by three Church Apostles (prior to that meeting, his ethnicity was never an issue). It was a turning point for black members of the Church. In Elijah Abel and the Changing Status of Blacks Within Mormonism by Newell G. Bringhurst (Phd) who is an active member of the Church and a past president of both the Mormon History Association and the John Whitmer Historical Association, this issue is discussed and the context of such meeting.

Making sure our missionaries are well fed is a wonderful calling. Congratulations.

Sorry, I have been very busy. Are you a Catholic right? How do you see polygamy in the Old Testament? (just curious). Just for your information, not every member of the Church lived Plural Marriage at the time of Joseph Smith, as I explained before it was something that was done within a certain circle and within certain privacy (secrecy actually).

I respectfully disagree. If a person accepts the OD-2 as scripture then they will have an indication that it was the God's will to lift the ban, it doesn't say He was behind the placement of the ban (that's the issue I am more interested in) so I am not sure what's your reasoning behind that statement, it doesn't make sense to me. Agreed, taking also into consideration that there were a lot of external and social factors that probably "sped up" that "revelation" (such as the case with Polygamy as well). I suppose we need to define what exactly means that the Prophet will never lead the Church astray. We always hear this statement but what does exactly entitles? I can think of a few teachings that Prophets have taught from the pulpit and a few that were repudiated by the modern Church. Are we saying that the Adam God theory, Blood Atonement, Calling and Election, etc and so many other teachings were the will of the Lord for the members at that time? That the Lord was speaking through the Prophet at that time? As an example, I am aware that the Adam-God theory was repudiated and was never considered doctrine because it was not put to vote by the membership neither considered by the Quorum of the Twelve therefore was never binding upon the membership (even though it was clearly taught)...then how these things apply to the topic at hand? Where does it state that the Lord spoke through Brigham Young and told him to deny the blessings of the Priesthood and the rights to endowments to black members of the Church? Where is the revelation concerning this issue? Why wasn't such revelation presented to the body of Saints for the sustaining vote? Because it was NEVER doctrinal. They taught it as such but it was never doctrinal, they made it binding upon black members yet wasn't doctrinal. If you notice, only with time Prophets talked about a "policy" instead of "doctrine" with regards to this issue and moved from knowing exactly what it caused the ban (Curse of Cain, less valiant in the pre-existence, etc) to right now just "don't know' what was the cause. One of the greatest mysteries in LDS history. No doubt.

Oh yes, one of my friends invited me to dinner some time ago and we didn't have anyone to watch our kids, she said she invited several other couples to this dinner and had her 13 year old girl and 12 year old boy in another house taking care of all the kids (including a 1 year old). I politely declined the invitation. Glad to hear your son is safe.

Hmmmm so if I see a black cat in Bear Lake County sometime soon I would ensure to say it's my pet.

If the love you refer to is in a form of a check, may I be your sister?

When we think about the Priesthood ban, we tend to think about black men who weren't allowed to hold the Priesthood for more than 100 years, often times we forget that the Priesthood restriction also affected many worthy black women. Take for example, Jane Elizabeth Manning James. She was an African-American LDS member born in Connecticut in the 1820's. She was born free (not slave) but worked as a servant in the farm of a very wealthy white family. She was a Presbyterian and when our missionaries traveled to the area (around 1841) where she lived and Jane listened to their message, she knew instantly that she has found what she has been looking for and decided to be baptized the following Sunday. Around a year or two after her conversion, she led a group of relatives (8 of them) to Nauvoo along with the Saints of the area. The whole family prepared and traveled with the larger group of members of the Church. However, they were separated in New York after the steamboat captain refused Jane and family entry because they were African Americans. The captain also refused to give them their belongings that were already packed in the boat. This unfortunate event that probably could make most people give up and lose hope didn't stop this wonderful and faithful sister. She was determined to be in Nauvoo, no matter what it would take. Jane and her family decided to walk to Nauvoo (800 miles), experiencing harsh weather conditions, illnesses, almost ending in prison (authorities demanded that they present documents that would prove they weren't slaves and after a long interview, they were allowed to leave and were able to convince the authorities that they were free). Jane said that they walked until their shoes were worn out and their feet were so sore that they cracked open and bled to the point of making bloody prints on the ground. However, they prayed together and asked Heavenly Father to heal their feet and He did and they were able to continue the journey. When they reached Nauvoo the members of the Church after seeing them didn't greet them as she was expecting. However there was a very special person who greeted her and her relatives with love: The Prophet Joseph Smith. She was able to find his house and when Joseph saw her, he took a chair and sat by Jane and said "You have been the head of this little band, haven't you?" (I close my eyes and I feel like I can almost imagine the voice of the Prophet saying this with a smile on his face). Jane, humbly answered "Yes, sir". He then said "God bless you". He also told her "You are now among friend and you will be protected". A week passed and each relative of Jane was able to find a job and a place to live except Jane. Her family left for their new jobs in the morning and the Prophet saw Jane crying and asked her why she was so upset and she told him that all her relatives got themselves homes and she got none. And it's very hard to write this now (without choking up) the Prophet told her that yes, she has a house, "right here if you want it", he comforted her and said she musn't cry and left the room and brought Emma with him. Emma welcomed her with open arms and from that day, Jane became a servant in the Smith house helping Emma with chores such as washing and ironing. Emma became very close to Jane and even offered her "adoption", meaning being sealed to the Prophet and her as a child but she not understanding at that time what it meant, politely refused. One of the first chores she did the next morning was the washing of clothes and saw the Prophet's temple garments and said: After Joseph Smith died, she lived in Brigham Young's house. There she met and married another member of the Church named Isaac James, they had 8 children and their third child was the first African American child born in Utah territory. Both of them worked for very hard and were able to purchase a farm and accumulate horses, sheep, chickens and all sort of animals until the crickets came and destroyed most of their crops. Jane and her kids suffered harsh weather conditions, no money and hunger. She related how hard it was for her to listen her kids cry for bread and yet have none to give them. This was just the beginning of sorrows... Her husband decided to leave her and the kids (he returned more than 20 years later, short before he died) and Jane had to be the breadwinner in her large family. Her income wasn't much but she did the best she could and worked in washing, sewing, soap making that allowed her at least to have some bread on the table for her and her kids. Even though her income was very low, she payed tithes and even donated to three temple funds and a mission. Her faith and determination were unstoppable. This wonderful faithful woman walked for over 800 miles until her feet were cracking and bleeding, losing all her belongings, facing racism and prejudice, bringing along her relatives who joined the Church because of her, payed a faithful tithing and donated money to Church funds and programs even though she had a meager income. After her husband left the family in 1869, Jane in several occasions asked the First Presidency to be endowed and to be sealed, along with her children, to Walker Lewis, an African American Mormon Elder (I think he is the second, after Elijah Abel). Jane of course assumed that he would be eligible for temple ordinances since Walker was an Elder. However, her petitions were refused several times. After Isaac died in 1891 Jane decided to ask the First Presidency to be given the ordination of adoption so that she could be sealed to the Smiths as a child as Emma has offered in the past. Her request was once again refused. Instead, the First Presidency decided (after several requests) that she can be adopted into the family of Joseph Smith as a eternal servant and they did so. Jane was not allowed to be present in the ceremony. Joseph F. Smith acted as proxy for Joseph Smith, and Bathsheba W. Smith acted as proxy for Jane. It just breaks my heart to imagine the pain that this faithful Saint went through and her faith and desire to be sealed in the Temple just like anyone else to her loved ones. It also touches me to know how wonderful the Prophet Joseph was to her and her family . After that ordination of becoming a servant for eternity, Jane didn't seem satisfied (who can blame her?). She petitioned once again (1895) to the First Presidency to be sealed to the Smiths as a child but once again, was denied. She died in 1908 at age of 86. She was almost completely blind yet her faith and love for this Gospel are amazing examples in LDS history. I never met this sister, I am not African American yet I feel my heart so close to her and the struggles she went through. The work in the Temple has been done for her right after the lifting of the ban in 1978. Toward the end of her earthly journey she said: God bless you Sister Jane. Forever.

Vahnin, thanks but I fail to see how these beliefs of yours prove that the Lord was behind the ban. Maybe you would like to break it down? (if you have time and energy, if you don't I completely understand).

It's interesting to me how we presently saywe don't know the reason for ban after generation to generation have been taught from the pulpit and in church publications (from top LDS leaders, including prophets) that the reason were from the "curse" of Cain to being less valiant in the pre-existence. Should I guess the Lord changed his mind in every generation and with every Prophet and now He doesn't know the reason for a ban he allegedly placed?

Before I go any further. I would like to get a little more clarification. What do you exactly mean by the will of the Lord? The reason I ask is because I could say I believe it was the will of the Lord to let Brigham Young go ahead (without him interfering) and place a ban in the Priesthood to blacks even though he wasn't the one behind it. Do you understand what I am coming from? I would like to know whether or not you believe that the Lord was the one who commanded the ban and revealed it to Brigham Young accordingly. Thanks.

For those who aren't familiar with Darius Gray: He is an African American member of the Church, and is one of the persons behind the formation of the Genesis group (that was established back in 1971 to support African Americans LDS members) in the Salt Lake City area. The Genesis group was created as an auxiliary organization of the Church and currently overseen by a General Authority. Darius was baptized in the 1960's. As I mentioned earlier, Darius and Margaret Young (both active and faithful LDS members) created the documentary Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons and Darius along with Marvin Perkins also created Blacks in the Scriptures to reach members and non-members who may wonder about the Priesthood ban. The reason I say all this (besides the fact of providing a little more information) is to quote him when he said: Priesthood for blacks is focus of film | Deseret News

I just saw this. I just wanted to say that I didn't feel you was insulting me. I enjoy debates, even when they get heated and I don't get offended. If I appear to be is probably frustration rather than indignation for not getting the point across.