GaySaint

Kenny: As to why he begiled Eve... this question was actually one that shook my teenage testimony, because it was hard to understand the answers people were trying to tell me. I have a quote on it that I don't have access to right now. I might not have it at all, actually, but I'll look when I get home. But the crux of the quote came down to this: Knowledge is different from understanding or intelligence. We may have a knowledge without understanding, or intelligence without knowledge. I think Satan had facts, but lacked the knowledge necessary to understand the role he was filling. I'm not sure we know why he lacked such understanding - only that he did. I'll post tonight if I can find the quote I got in the MTC on this...

Kenny: I do, and I still think he probably feels that way (IE, loves us). But I think his original intention was made quite clear in the scriptures - that it wasn't OUR interest he had at heart, but his own. His intention was to get the power and the glory at the destruction of our own agency - a gift that God gave us since the time we were unorganized intelligences. I don't think he would have been cast out of heaven for loving us all too much, if that was the intent of his heart, even if he didn't understand fully (which he must not have, or he would have known the importance of agency). I think a loving Heavenly Father would teach before he would reject. But I think Satan's thurst for power led him to use the same agency that he wished to strip from us to choose to no longer follow the plan God selected. A bit ironic, I think. But it is also a bit interesting to think that this particular plan that was adopted was debated and presented to us as spirit beings. It makes me curious as to whether or not there were even other plans that could have been presented - plans that could have been rejected, but that maybe didn't cause such a rebellion.

I think I know what you are getting at Kenny: If Satan knew the plan, then he knew the plan called for an adversary. If he knew the plan called for an adversary, why would he fulfill that role? This was one of the big questions I had when I left on a mission, and it got answered to my satisfaction in the MTC. What we need to question is not what Satan knew, but what he understood and what he would think. Obviously Satan thinks his plan is not futile. If he did, he could foil God by simply “lying low” for a while. I think he honestly thinks he’s going to win. Now, what is his definition of win? Is one soul enough? 10? 100? In addition, I think he is still proceeding with his plan. Look at how many addictions there are out there. And just what does an addiction do? Removes our agency. Beer = Satan’s plan in a bottle! You hear that misery loves company. Maybe 1/3rd of the host of heaven is not enough. If they want us all to be miserable like they are, how could they do that if Satan didn’t start with Eve? I think it might even be possible that if we didn’t come to this world as spirit children born into bodies, we could have been sent somewhere else, where Satan may not have had his chance with us. But honestly, I think it is more personal than that. How many friends do you think you had in that 1/3rd host of heaven? How many of them knew you better than you know yourself now? They may not have dark and evil intentions exactly – but I’m sure they still want you to be with them after this life, right? It is an interesting subject to contemplate, but the answers are there, I think. I realize not all of mine were doctrinal

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110. I can see how parents of a wayward child would take solace in this beautiful teaching by Joseph Smith, but on my mission, we never came to a conclusion as to what it really meant. Does it mean exaltation? What exactly is the definition of “saved” in this quote? We all know, by our faith and good works in the pre-existence, that we will all achieve salvation of our physical bodies through resurrection. That is a gift to all who walk this earth, no matter their personal level of righteousness now – so THAT definition of salvation can’t be the one this quote was referring to. It seems that the definition in this quote would have to refer to something more… something a child could NOT achieve without faithful parents. Any ideas? And what of those children excommunicated, who no longer have access to their parent’s sealings?

Maya, EDIT:: Oops, sorry. You're in Norway. Hopefully some of this will help anyway :)... Would you be talking about marriage at all? It just seems kind of silly at that age. If you have a child in your class that has gay parents, I suppose it might come up and you may have to mention it (especially if you give an assignment to draw your family, or something like that). If that happens, I think it would be easy to say “We respect all families, and all mommies and daddies who love their children. Families come in all shapes and sizes. Look at Suzie who lives with her grandma!” or something, that way it will at least stop children from making fun, expose the children to the facts of diversity, but stop short of making moral judgments or endorsements (which is something the children should learn at home). The last I checked, there weren’t any requirements for books on same-sex marriage at all in any state at any level (there may be a “diversity” requirement, but that can be satisfied by a children’s book about divorce, for example). It may be mentioned in history class as a current civil rights issue, or it may be brought up in a “gay history” type context at the older ages (and I’m sure it is allowed to be brought up in some health class contexts), but I don’t think anyone is going to be upset if you DON’T mention it to 5 year olds.

Miss: I'm not sure that this will answer your question, but even in modern day temples there are women that perform priesthood ordinances. The initiatory is one example. While I’m not exactly sure how this “transference of authority” works, it seems that it is possible for a woman to act with priesthood authority in some circumstances. My theory is that this authority is given to them as an extension of the temple president’s authority, but the exact doctrine is unclear. Maybe there is a temple president here who could answer you more clearly. I just wanted to point out that it still happens today :)

Personally, I think this wife's desire to remove the proclaimation from her home while a gay friend is over has less to say about intimidation, and more to say about the loving and compassionate nature of the wife. I HIGHLY doubt the wife is afraid of offending her friend. I just think she holds his feelings in high regard. To me that is a great, human, and Christ-like quality. I also have a feeling that if the friend knew this argument was going on, he would comment to her about how silly she was being. Remember these two individuals are friends, both willing to put another person's well-being above their own. I find the whole situation very touching... actually.

DB: Can I ask, did this friend actually ASK that you remove the proclaimation to the family? If not, it seems a little harsh, I guess coming from a gay person, for you to judge him on something he didn't say or didn't request. Could your anger toward him be stemming from your anger toward the gay community in general, over how some reacted to prop 8?

Ok, you didn’t ask for the gay perspective, but I’m going to give it to you anyway :) First of all, I’m not offended at all by the proclamation, except for the few times when I’ve had it throw up in my face as an excuse for people to be jerks to me (at a prop 8 rally I attended here in SLC, there was a rather rude individual who pulled out the proclamation, shoved it in my face, and told me I was going to Hell. I responded rather calmly that although the proclamation affirms doctrine and is a beautiful statement of what he believed the family to be, the document, itself, was not confirmed doctrine per the order laid out in D&C. At this point, he almost hit me. In fairness, perhaps I didn’t come across as calmly as I thought I did, and this man certainly wasn’t going to give me the opportunity to explain). I really like Just-A-Guy’s suggestion that you hang the document in a private room – but I guarantee that if the guy in the class knows your beliefs, he knows what you may think of gay marriage and the proclamation. Strangely, I know many people who believe fully in the proclamation, but still support gay [civil] marriage. I don’t think there is as much of a disconnect there as some people think, and if you and your wife feel this way, tell your wife's friend this, and then you have no need to worry about it further. Maybe your wife could talk to the individual? I’m sure if she asks him his feelings, even if he is angry at the church or anti-LDS, he probably wouldn’t ask her to give up her beliefs for him, especially if he feels at least SOME level of support from her. Perhaps she could tell him that while you have this document hanging in your home, it is a reminder to her of what she wants HER family to become, while recognizing the importance HIS family has to him. That would be all I would need to hear to feel comfortable.

I manage a property, and this is illegal. I would just call your landlord and tell him/her that you expect 24 hours notice, as per law, before anyone enters your apartment. Hopefully that will be enough to fix the problem, but if not, I'm with Pam: call the police.

Nano: I don’t know if I’ll be much help, but I have to respond a bit. First, I think you are right about God’s omniscience. I think he knows which ones of us will make it and which ones won’t. I think the point of this life isn’t to prove to God who we are or what we are capable of, but to prove it to ourselves. WE don’t know the choices we will make, and how fair of it would it have been for God to say to us, “Wait, you won’t make it. You would rather live in this kingdom or that one, rather than be a celestial being.” I know I would have wined and complained that He was wrong, and that I COULD make it. We need the experience, so that we know where we fit in the eternities. Maybe I’m not MEANT to marry a woman and have children and be a god. Maybe my talents are better suited to being an angel (just an example) - single in the eternities (because all those Gods are going to need SOMEONE to go down and destroy cities and turn people into pillars of salt, haha). But God couldn’t tell me that before I got a body. I needed to develop my talents myself, and discover myself where I fit. As to answers to prayers – I actually just wrote a scripture study dialog/talk that is posted in the scripture study forum. Maybe that will help. Maybe you’re just asking the wrong questions? :)

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." I actually had a seminary teacher once tell me that the comma after the word "used" was included by accident, and that if read without the comma, the meaning changes completely. I don't know if this guy was up in the night or not, but I do find it interesting that the meaning changes so completely with a simple punctuation mark. Anyone else hear this growing up?

Star: I would suggest that if your “defense” would come from a place of anger, then it is probably best to walk away. However, having been involved in some rather heated discussions myself , I can honestly say that I appreciate honest dialog, especially when it helps me understand where people are coming from or how and why they think the way they do. If you can answer out of love and respect, then I say go for it. You might not be able to change the minds of the people who are set against you, Christ, or the LDS church, but there might be another reader that you could touch, or another testimony you could be helping to reaffirm.

Hi Maya! Thanks for the welcome. I think if any of us understood WHY, we would have the answer to one of the biggest mysteries to date :).

Ever since I was twelve years old I have had not only a desire, but a need to call on my Heavenly Father in prayer. There were many points of the gospel that I didn’t understand – many things that I was experiencing that didn’t seem to fit – and even more things I needed to resolve. Because of this, I had a heavy reliance on prayer and on my personal relationship with God and Christ. While serving a mission, I remember having an experience where a companion asked me something along the line of “You always get answers to your prayers, don’t you?” I responded, “Of course. Don’t you?” His response was odd, “Well, I know the Lord answers prayers, but there are many times when I feel I don’t get an answer.” In my time since, I have realized that this is a rather common problem for members of the church (in fact, ANY church). The more I thought about it, the more I realized that there were some prayers that seemed like I wasn’t getting answers, but usually the answer was that I was asking the wrong question. So in an effort to help my companion, I scoured the scriptures in hopes of discovering my pattern, the method I used to find answers to prayers. It wasn’t long before I identified with the brother of Jared in Ether, chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Mormon– so, if any of you would like to look at a few chapters with me with the goal of getting answers to prayers in mind, I would love to share what has worked for me. Let’s start in Ether chapter 2. Here, as we know, is where the brother of Jared is commanded to build the barges. The first thing we need to know is that he went and built the barges. I think that is the first step to getting answers to our prayers – we have to have proved to the Lord that we will follow what he tells us when we do get an answer. If the Lord doesn’t think we will do what he says, why would he tell us what to do? I have a mission experience to illustrate this point. One day my companion and I both received a heavy impression to knock every door of a certain apartment complex. After four hours of straight tracting, missing dinner to do so, and not teaching a single discussion, we were about to leave. We got the prompting again, to knock the doors again. So, we bothered many people twice, and got a few more doors answered from people who weren’t home the first time. Still, not a single teaching appointment. After our second time through the apartment, and almost 6 hours of tracting this ONE apartment complex, we resolved that we were to leave. On our way home, I asked my companion, “Hey, I’m upset by this. Why would we feel like knocking those doors was so important, only to have no success?” My companion at the time, who is much wiser than I was, answered, “Because the Lord wanted to make sure we were listening, and would obey. These last 6 hours would probably have been a waste anyway, so the Lord used the time to strengthen our ability to listen, so that when he needs us, he will know he can count on us.” Sure enough, on the way home we passed an oil field, and a small trailer house guarded the entrance. We felt prompted to knock on the door, which looked less like a residence and more like a company vehicle. It turned out than an inactive member lived there with her husband, who were away from their own home on business with the oil company. It wasn’t long before they were reactivated, and asking us whether they could get General Conference on their satellite: “And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me” (Ether 2:18). Step one: When you get an answer, prove to the Lord you are worthy of getting the next one. In verse 19, the brother of Jared asks the Lord two questions: “And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.” And in verse 20, the Lord answers one of them: “Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.” Sometimes this is how the Lord answers our prayers, by simply providing us the solution. I think, however, this is the rarest type of answer, and will usually only happen when we are unable to come up with a solution ourselves. Step two: Recognize that while the Lord can and sometimes does give us the answer directly, this is usually going to be a rare occurrence. Let’s note that in verse 21, the brother of Jared does what the Lord commands, which leads us back to step one. But the Jaredites still had a problem. Would the Lord really suffer them to cross the waters in the dark? This is the exact question that the brother of Jared returns and proposes to the Lord, and I absolutely LOVE the Lord’s answer. From verse 23: “What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels?” What a fantastic opportunity the Lord has given the brother of Jared (and how often does He give it to us?). How often do we interpret the Lord asking us “What do you think?” as not getting an answer? In my mind, the rest of the verse isn’t exactly a quote from the Lord, but more of a banter between God and the brother of Jared: Brother of Jared – “Can I have windows?” Lord – “Are you kidding me? They’ll get smashed!” Brother of Jared = “Can I have fire?” Lord – “Only if you want to kill yourself. (And in verse 24) You do realize you’ll be buried in the depths of the sea and with the wind and everything I’m going to have to provide to take you to the promised land, there are going to be giant waves that are going to make the ride a bit bumpy, right? (Verse 25) So, with these things in mind, what other ideas do you have?” Step three: Recognize that more often than not, the Lord will expect you to bring Him an answer to see if it is the right one, not the question for Him to answer directly. I think it is also interesting to note that the questions the brother of Jared would have brought the Lord at this point were yes/no questions “Can we have windows?” “Can we have fire?” I think there is a reason for this: I think yes/no questions are the easiest ones to get answered. If you feel the spirit confirm to you that your solution is correct, then the answer is yes. If you don’t, then no. It doesn’t get much easier than that. Step Four: If you doubt your ability to receive a complex answer, or the Lord isn’t answering something that is complex, rephrase the question so that the answer is a simple yes or no. Now, on to chapter three. We’ve all read the story, so we know what happens. The brother of Jared does something I doubt many people would have thought of; in fact, I have to wonder if his solution wasn’t somewhat inspired. This man goes to the side of the freakin’ mountain, and carves out sixteen clear stones. What is interesting about this? First, the brother of Jared is obviously a good craftsman. He uses his talents to resolve the problem, even if it is a little “unconventional.” With his creative solution in hand, the brother of Jared takes his thoughts to the Lord. Let’s read those scriptures, because they are so incredibly amazing: "2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be aangry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are bunworthy before thee; because of the cfall our dnatures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires. "3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been amerciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across this raging deep in darkness; but behold these bthings which I have molten out of the rock. "4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all apower, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy bfinger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have clight while we shall cross the sea. "5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which alooks small unto the understanding of men.” I love how humble these scriptures are. I love the brother of Jared’s faith. As a reward, not only does the brother of Jared see the finger of God, but later has a vision in which he sees the coming Christ – thousands of years before his birth. Step five: Use your talents, and be creative as you seek answers. Think outside of the box. Your faith in the Lord will be rewarded as you seek Him. It is my hope that no matter where we are in our journey in life, no matter our faith, that we will cultivate the kind of relationship with our Heavenly Father that is as strong as the relationship between earthly fathers and children. The only way we can know Him intimately is through conversing with Him. May we all take a little extra time to listen – because He has some amazing things to tell us.

WmLee - haha. Loudmouth does seem to have a sense of humor though :) Thank you for the welcome. Relentless: I'm an open book - feel free to ask whatever you'd like. I answered your question (sort of) here (most recent post for now) But if you don't want to read it, I can answer you simply: I don't know. I think it is a mashup of genetics, hormones, development in the womb, and environment (probably). However it happens, I do believe it happens before the age of accountability (I have personal experience that attests to that), and therefore cannot come from Satan directly. I have also received testimony that this is a core characteristic (as spoken of in the Oaks interview), and that makes me thing God has something more to do with it than members of the church are currently willing to understand (but going down that path might not be the best thing to do at the moment - I'd hate to be banned... haha. But if you want to PM me, I'd be more than willing to have some respectful dialog).

Thanks everyone :) Loud: Shouldn't be a problem. And if having me here on a forum gives people the heebie-jeebies, I can only imagine what they must feel knowing I very well could be that guy that sits next to them during sacrament meeting . I'll promise to not allow the fact that I gain a small amount of happiness in watching such people squirm to color my posts superfluously.

Happy Holidays everyone. I debated whether or not to join, because I’m not sure how I will be received here. I’m an excommunicated member of the church, and a homosexual who has been in a committed relationship for over two years. I’m joining in response to a few posts I’ve seen where questions have been asked (specifically, my heart broke while reading a plea from a father with a 17 year old son who came out to him recently), but went unanswered. As someone who still firmly believes in the church, and has been through the process of LDS counseling for homosexuality, change therapy, and knows what it is like to be a gay Mormon (including dating women, being celibate, and finally dating men), I hope to be able to provide perspective and insight into what gay Mormon men go through – including, perhaps, giving advice to those struggling with this issue who may wish to remain faithful to the church (which is what I assume I will find most of on this forum). I hope to also share some things I’ve learned while serving a mission and struggling to understand my purpose and how I could possibly fit in with the church (something gay youth will particularly struggle with). I just want to be a resource for those who desire to have one. I have many friends in the church, including a publicist who was heavily involved with Prop 8, and currently meet with a group of GLBT/LDS people where conversations are had that build bridges, love, compassion, sympathy, and understanding – which are virtues I think sometimes are missing from people on both sides of this divisive issue.