carlimac

Can someone get those lovely bookcases off my post? I've tried but can't get them to go away.

Has anyone seen this? I know we are to consider the source but this is nuts! " Don't ask, don't tell" Really??? https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/05/us/mormon-policy-reversal/index.html

Besides the fact that many people have children in heterosexual marriages or relationships before giving it up for a homosexual relationship, I think it’s simply because they want them. They love children. They want to be parents and it’s legal for them to adopt or IVF or whatever it takes to acquire a child. Maybe some are desperate to prove their worth to society by becoming parents. Maybe some want to thumb their nose at traditional families. But mostly I believe there is some level of genuine desire to “parent” involved.

There are some wild assumptions and reactions that are surprising out there in cyber world. I’m trying to get my head around them. I think what it boils down to is that mostly, three years ago the word “apostate” created a visceral reaction in people who don’t want to be told what they are doing is so wrong. And the baptism issue infuriated people who don’t like to be told “no” whether it was something they wanted or not. I don’t understand why babies of gays couldn’t be given a blessing. It’s not a saving ordinance and if it makes the parents feel better- then why not. But that’s the least of the issues. I really can’t imagine that a gay couple would want their child to get baptized. Perhaps it was the grandparents of the child who were hurting the most over the policy? I can imagine though, a slightly older child or teenager who investigates the Church and wants to get baptized. So it makes sense to allow them to before they lose interest or change their mind before turning 18. But I still feel it will be confusing for younger kids who live with two gay parents. In any case, I feel bad because people, especially non-gays, misconstrued the original policy and reacted in such a self centered way as to leave the Church over it. I’m disappointed in those who say it was all a huge mistake by President Monson and the damage done can’t be repaired. I think it’s a generous outreach to soften the wording of “apostate” if it makes folks feel better. I sincerely doubt it will change the numbers of baptisms of children of gays though.

Define "apostacy".

This could easily be the case in any divorce situation, whether one parent is homosexual or not. If this happens, the parents have to just work out their differences. How could any bishops be held accountable?

Do you have a handbook reference for that? I have a friend with little children who is in this situation. I assumed she would still be able to have her kids baptized because they are active in the church and live with her, but I haven't asked her. ( We live on opposite sides of the country and I haven't seen any social media announcements of her kids being baptized. )

Also I believe there is more incentive to be "entertaining" and judged positively by the students when a teacher is being paid. I know they aren't paid much but they do get a salary and benefits so they will try harder to put on a good show when they are being evaluated. It's different with Institute teachers because the people who take their classes are more mature and really want to learn the subject since it's truly optional. ( There may be some trying to find a spouse, but that's legit at that point in life. ) I think the topics are discussed more seriously in Institute so there is less of the entertainment factor.

Here's the dig. When students out here complain about having to get up so early for seminary they are told by stake and some ward leaders to just buck up. " It's helping you develop character." So why isn't it administered evenly around the world if this is something that will help Latter Day Saints teens develop character? Doesn't the Church want all it's youth to have the same opportunities? Why do the kids in Utah and other western states have seminary handed to them on a silver platter without any sacrifice? Not only that, but (I know this from my own seminary experience growing up in Utah) that daily seminary classes taught by professionally trained teachers during released time tended to start feeling like EFY everyday with a really big emphasis on performance and entertainment rather than education. And it mattered so much who was in your class and which teacher you got. Everyone wanted the "cool" teacher. To become a seminary teacher in the released time system it seems there is a certain level of charisma and charm required to cut it. (We had two seminary teachers in our Idaho ward and they both had oodles of this schstick. One of them used to sing his testimony on Fast Sundays.) It seems to feed the "cultural Mormon" phenomenon: appearances, competing for popularity ( who can achieve the most popular teacher status), who is most righteous and a sort of fake "we're all that" persona. I suppose this goes on in EMS too, to a certain extent, dependng on the people called to teach. Who doesn't want to be adored by the teens in your ward and stake? No one wants to be labeled "boring" by their students. But at least the ones who are "called" rather than choosing it as their profession have to develop the same character as the kids, getting up early, taking time away from work and home responsibilities to study and prepare. It takes greater humility, I believe, to be called to teach rather than choosing it. It's all a bit nebulous and I'm sure there are many who would argue this with me. But basically, I think all teens would be better served by the EMS system. Actually I think they would be best served by a home study program that is optional but highly rewarded- it could factor in even more heavily on BYU applications than it is now. That way only the ones that really wanted to learn would be taking it and there would be less guilt and negativity attached if some kids chose not to do it. And less peer pressure if someone really isn't interested. Maybe group lessons once a week to discuss the topics. I personally feel it's overkill to have daily classes so early in the morning and that most teens don't get nearly as much out of it as supposed.

And picking nits out of each other's hair and eating them!

then why are there different standards for Utah/idaho kids and the rest of the world? Just have the kids go to their ward buildings at 6 Am and divide up into classes just like they do everywhere else? It can't be that hard.

Actually I am.

This is basically the discussion: Connie: " I have longed to see seminary less entrenched in the public school schedule, especially here in Utah. It is incredibly hard for homeschoolers and those who chose alternative education to find a good time for seminary for their kids here in my area. " Carlimac: " Why not do it like the rest of the world does it. 6 AM weekdays? Johnson Jones: Or online home study Vort: "Problem is seminary is a collective school class, unless you do home study" ( he thinks it's not a good option). He's not sure if early morning seminary is available in Utah Carlimac: "I don't see why they couldn't" do early morning in Utah. Remembers people and situations where it indeed happened. And then blah, blah homeschoolers just don't want to give up their ability to sleep in every day, she hates EMS for her own kids, blahbity blah Estradling: Lives in Utah and drops his son off to early morning seminary ( Yes it does in fact exist !) Then Annatess enters with her take on how well seminary works for her family and all the Floridians and Filipinos at 5:30 AM and Carlimac says good for you but it's not all so rosey up north where she resides.And then some silliness occurs, blah blah blah- whatever. THEN MOE enters the conversation confusing Carlimac about accreditation and why it makes it not possible for homeschoolers to do seminary and they can't go on missions to Brazil. carlimac goes Huh?? Why can't they? And what is this accreditation thingy and then maybe homeschoolers just shouldn't go to Brazil on missions then. And then MOE goes " What are you talking about? You MUST be confused. And I go- NOT So fast Buster YOU are the one who brought up accreditation. So who gets this credit thing and who doesn't and if they don't they should so everybody can go to Brazil on a mission. And then Annatess asks Carlimac sweetly if maybe she could ask her stake president to set up a class (It would be accredited by the way- whew! We can go to Brazil.). But carlimac is a tad confused (again) because she doesn't live in Utah. She lives in Maryland and her kids already go to seminary at 5:50 AM!! Then Vort saves the day by explaining very clearly what Carlimac meant. But we're all still confused by this accreditation business and afraid we might not get to go to Brazil. May we should go to Florida or the Philippines instead. Does that make sense? And then MOE beats carlimac to the gun and attempts to explain accreditation before she can post. But carlimac still doesn't get what it has to do with homeschoolers taking early morning seminary in Utah. Maybe all Utah homeschoolers should move to Florida where it works wonderfully to get up early for seminary. But not Maryland...or Brazil.

No it’s all part of the same ball of gum. Homeschooled and public school kids outside of Utah go to early morning seminary. Why can’t the same exact seminary program be administered to homeschooled kids in Utah? One poster said home schooled families in Utah were having a hard time figuring out when to have seminary. My answer is 6AM like everywhere else. Gather a bunch of homeschooling families together and have a teacher called by the stake or two or three stakes if the students are compiled from that many stakes. Is there some rule that the only Seminary taught in Utah has to be taught by a professional teacher? About accreditation- are ALL seminary programs accredited? If not, which are and which aren’t? If they all are, why would accreditation a problem for homeschooled families if they are taking EMS? Doesn’t make sense. If only RTS is accredited, does that mean there are no missionaries called to Brazil from , say, New York or Pennsylvania or Kansas where RTS isn’t an option?

Well, then kids who are homeschooled just wouldn't be sent to Brazil. I really don't think it's that serious of an issue. If people can meet all the requirements of Homeschool, they can keep track of how many hours their kids attend Seminary. Again, why can stakes outside Utah do it but Utah can't?

And perhaps you could learn from our experience. And sympathize. But the I can't expect that of you. https://childmind.org/article/teenagers-sleep-deprived/ Many other resources are out there that have come to the conclusion that teens are not as healthy or happy due to the pressure they are feeling on all sides and due to the sleep they are losing. The sleep they ARE getting may be less renewing, more disrupting, too, due to this pressure.

Well it's clear that the kids in the Phillipines and FL are more righteous, less wimpy ( no tears) and better managed than the ones in MD. 😜 (Sarcasm button on!) My point is that your experience in your location and your home is yours. Mine is mine. You're right about your experience. I'm right about mine.

And that's your experience. Ours is slightly different. Seminary starts at 5:50. School first bell rings at 7:20. My husband has subbed in Seminary many times and he can guarantee that all the kids are not wide awake. And he's a far more engaging teacher than they normally have. The reality is that some kids can make it to bed by 8:30 or 9:00 but many can't. Mine have after school activities till 5:00 or later. One is going straight from track to driver's ed for three hours. And then there is Mutual once a week that takes another two hours of their evening time on Tuesdays. Some kids have more honors and AP classes- ( my 9th and 10th graders do which is another pet peeve! The school is pushing the kids to take these classes in the lower grades to raise school ratings. Grr!) Some kids have after school jobs which prevent them from getting their studies done so they can get to bed early. In fact I'd say more kids than not are up waaay past 9 PM. It's been this way for all my 7 kids. I know it's this way for many kids in our ward. I'm on pick up duty several times a week- taking the non-driving kids from Seminary to school. I have to admit they generally come out smiling and laughing ( especially when one kids burns his popcorn in the microwave time after time and all the alarm lights in the building start flashing and a firetruck shows up.) So it's benefiting them socially. Which is good for them being in such a minority at school. I just don't think it's good for them physically or mentally. My most diligent, organized and motivated child who always gets right to her homework and makes her bed in the morning was in tears (again) last week because she was so tired. I hesitate to say it's benefiting them much spiritually, either. This year anyway.

I don't see why not. Homeschooling families collaborate on lots of other kinds of experiences- field trips , weekly PE and music classes. They could figure out Seminary if they really wanted to. If early morning Seminary can be done in the rest of the world I don't know why it can't be done in Utah. In fact when we lived in Idaho there was an early morning Seminary at our high school for the kids that didn't have room in their schedules for it during the school day and for the kids that attended private and charter schools. Also I had a friend who would be in her 40s now who attended early morning seminary in Provo. My post was part snark. Utah kids are so pampered when it comes to Seminary! My family has done both RTS and EMS. Early morning is exponentially harder to experience. And it's and often times less educational depending on whichever teacher gets "called"-unlike Utah kids who get Seminary in the middle of the school day by a professionally trained teacher. Homeschooling families have so much flexibility- which is one of the main reasons I've heard they do it. I have heard numerous moms tout that they don't have to get up early and can even do school in their pjs if they want to. They more than public schoolers should be able, ESPECIAlly in Utah where there are so many LDS home-schooling families, to figure out how to get a teacher called from some ward to teach them at 6 AM. They just probably prefer not to do it that early. Ha! If only personal preference held any weight outside of the "bubble" on this matter. I'd bet at least 98% of seminary students and at least 75% of their parents prefer to not have it at 6 AM out here in outer darkness. Yes that's what it feels like at 5:30 AM carting these half asleep kids to a class they don't get much out of.

How about at 6:00 AM like just about everywhere in the world except Utah (and parts of several other western states).

Slapping my head. No. That just blew right by me.

It was cute and harmless. At least it wasn't vulgar.

I don't quite understand your statement. When you say they are all over the place, what do you mean? In other parts of the country and world? Or all over the place in Utah. Are you saying "Utah Mormons" in a negative sense? You live in Utah right? So Utah Mormons are looking down on other Utah Mormons? And dissing on Utah? I get that the liberal ones who have grown too proud would be dissing on Utah and their politicians, conservative values, etc. Are these people who were born and raised in Utah or are they from somewhere else? Those born and raised in Utah don't generally diss on other Utah born members of the church. Outside of Utah I have heard plenty of members dissing on Utah and Utah Mormons- the culture and mindset. But not while I lived there. This is why I'm asking the question- are those born and raised in the church in Utah getting too proud and weak in standards? That wasn't the what it was when I lived there. Is it that way now? Has that sentiment of pride and lax attitudes towards the standards of the Church gotten worse over the last 20 years?

From what I've heard and experienced in talking with a few of these people is that they don't see their lifestyle choice to be sinful. So the "Love the sinner..." mentality is offensive to them. It's probably one of the biggest barriers to seeing eye to eye with them. They simply don't see their attraction and subsequent actions as sinning. Those of us who believe the prophets and interpret the Bible to be a condemnation of homosexual relations think it is sin. And ne'er the twain shall meet in the middle.

I guess I'm wondering mostly if the people have changed. My husband is a little prone to pick up on anti-LDS sentiment in the news and that seems to be louder and prouder from certain Utah outlets than those where we've lived (MN and MD mostly). He's not keen to go back to Utah where the church is viewed so poorly by so many. I find that outside Utah it's probably easier to walk away from the church without making a big stink or pestering the members after leaving. It's easier to just get absorbed by the rest of society. You can leave almost unnoticed. Another question- are the teenagers in the church in Utah struggling with sin, pride and apathy more now than 20 years ago? Our oldest was almost 12 when we moved away so I haven't been able to observe that segment of the church up close during my own kid's teen years. Most of my kids' cousins were active and strong in the church through high school at least. It wasn't till some of them were in their 20s and 30s that they bucked the system and walked away. We have over 70 youth in our ward now in Maryland and I'd say they are all pretty active- good kids. A few do things their own way. Not all attend all the activities and seminary ( Our ward is really spread out so it's hard for some to get there during the week) but most come on Sunday. But I think they are harder on each other. All but abut 5 of them go to the same highschool so they don't have other LDS friends to connect with besides each other. That makes for tons of social drama!!