Mute

It was a mistake. I don't think I quite understood her reason for not just taking it immediately back and giving me the right amount. The problem was I was paid for over 500 hours instead of 50 something hours. I appreciate everyone's advice in this thread and I hope it works out for me. I talked with my boss today and he said he doesn't know why they don't just take the money back and pay me the proper amount.

So I surprisingly found I had an extra digit added to my pay check. Though I think most people would agree, it wouldn't have been a bad idea to keep the money and keep quiet about it, honesty got the best of me and I decided to point it out to my boss. So I let my boss know. He said he'd look into and get back to me. The following day I ask him if he checked on it and he said he forgot all about it and straight away went to go check on it. So he goes to the payroll lady and she comes back saying there was no error in the system and I was paid what I was supposed to receive. She said if I got paid a large sum of money, it was probably from something else. I go home and check my online checking account again and see that money I received is indeed from the company. Today I go back and point out to the lady where there error is. Her words are "HOLY BEEP" and she informs me that I don't have enough months left in order to make up the difference before the year is over and that this will be listed on my taxes as having received this large sum of money. She's going to see what she can do to fix the situation and I won't be receiving any new income for the rest of the year but the bottom line is I may actually have to pay more taxes because of informing them of the money. I would have thought I'd have learned a lesson from Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect and Dragon Age that light side points don't get you anywhere but I guess I didn't learn that lesson. I wanted to give the money back because it wasn't mine but now I feel like I may be getting screwed with taxes because of it. Hopefully she can fix the situation but if she can't, I am going to fill a little dead inside.

You can go back to church. My guess is no one would say anything to you. I'm a former member as well and attend institute class regularly. Now, I don't and wouldn't tell anyone in person that I'm a former member unless they flat out asked me but no one cares that I'm not a member. They just assume I'm an investigator or lds and that is fine by me. There is no reason for you to label yourself as a former member. If people ask, you can tell them but don't feel compelled to go into or explain more than you're comfortable with. I don't think people are going to judge you as much as you think they are and if they do let them. Be the example and people will come around. I hope that helps you.

# Lev. 6: 27 27 Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place. # Lev. 16: 4, 23-24, 32 4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on. • • • 23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there: 24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people. • • • 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest’s office in his father’s stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments: # Ex. 28: 2, 4 2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty. • • • 4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. # Ex. 29: 29 29 ¶ And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons’ after him, to be anointed therein, and to be consecrated in them. # Ex. 31: 10 10 And the cloths of service, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest’s office, # Ex. 35: 19, 21 19 The cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest’s office. • • • 21 And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the Lord’s offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments. # Ex. 39: 1, 41 1 And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the Lord commanded Moses. • • • 41 The cloths of service to do service in the holy place, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and his sons’ garments, to minister in the priest’s office. EXODUS CHAPTER 40 9 And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy. 10 And thou shalt anoint the altar of the burnt offering, and all his vessels, and sanctify the altar: and it shall be an altar most holy. 11 And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it. 12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water. 13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. 14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats: 15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. 16 Thus did Moses: according to all that the Lord commanded him, so did he. # Ezek. 42: 14 14 When the priests enter therein, then shall they not go out of the holy place into the utter court, but there they shall lay their garments wherein they minister; for they are holy; and shall put on other garments, and shall approach to those things which are for the people. # Ezek. 44: 19 19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments. # Hag. 2: 12 12 If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No. Those are some scripture verses that talk about garments. Bottom line is, why do you need something from the Bible only to back up what you say? Many lds beliefs are only in the doctrine and covenants, pearl of great price and Book of Mormon and not in the Bible. Does that mean you shouldn't believe in them because a belief may not also be included in the Bible? That's up to you. You believe they're just as much scripture as the Bible, so why do you need anymore reason than that? That's just my two cents.

I went with my two brothers during the 2-4pm session. We actually didn't have that bad of seats but I found myself using the two big screens to see who was talking rather than looking right at them. There surprisingly weren't all that many protestors from what I saw. I thought there would have been more.

Back east, I've gone to church in both suits and jeans and a T shirt. No one cared either way. In Utah, I've only gone to church a handful of times and I always wear a suit. No one has ever compared themselves to what I was wearing. I never got the impression anyone was looking down at me because of the way I was dressed. I wear a suit when I go because I prefer to blend in rather than someone think I'm an investigator or an inactive member. I just don't want to stand out. People have always been very friendly every time I go. I haven't had any negative experiences from it so far. I hope that helps.

I've never been to Disneyland but I'm sure it can't be much better than Kentucky Fried Chicken in Logan when it comes to their customer service.

I moved to Logan Utah from West Virginia about three months ago. The first thing I noticed is that people are much more friendly. For example, I went into Kentucky Fried Chicken and I thought it was the happiest place on Earth. When the person at the counter asked if they could take my order, I didn't hesitate to say "YES YOU MAY!". I'm not religious at all and I really haven't felt pressured by very many people to change that in any way. The only people I've felt pressured by is one or two people I met at college and that's because they assumed I was an investigator. Over all, no one seems to care though. People go and buy on Sunday, they smoke, drink and no one says anything. The only hostile people that I've met in Logan so far are the two street preachers that hang out at Utah State University. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I was about 10 to 15 feet from the pulpit. Which window seal were you at?

Was anyone at the Logan Utah tabernacle today when David A. Bednar spoke? My brother talked me into going. He's a good speaker.

Hi girlygirl, From reading your post, there are some questions you are going to have decide. Do you believe it is possible for the lds church to be true even if some members/leaders in the church do things you do not feel are right, just, or of God? Does every action from a church leader, missionary or ward member reflect the thoughts of God? If not, does that make the church false? Or can you overlook that? Is every position given to someone divinely inspired by and called of God? If not, does that mean no position is? Can people make mistakes, even serious ones, and still be called of God? If someone is called of God, would that mean every word they say is inspired? Would that mean they could never make mistakes? Would that mean they could never do anything wrong, make false judgments, jump to conclusions or say things that are simply untrue? That is something you have to decide. There are going to be people who judge you and there are going to be people who are biased in the church. Does that make the church untrue? That is what you have to decide. You are going to find imperfect people in every religion. You are going to run into members who you do not agree with or ones who do things that are not perfect and that does include leaders. There were people placed in authority in the Bible and even in the Book of Mormon who made grave sins and these people were not removed from their positions. It caused a lot of people to doubt. THE BOOK OF ALMA THE SON OF ALMA CHAPTER 39 3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel. 4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted. 11 Suffer not yourself to be led away by any vain or foolish thing; suffer not the devil to lead away your heart again after those wicked harlots. Behold, O my son, how great iniquity ye brought upon the Zoramites; for when they saw your conduct they would not believe in my words. THE BOOK OF ALMA THE SON OF ALMA CHAPTER 42 31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to preach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen. I guess what I'm saying is, if God is real and he is working with people, he doesn't always stop them from making big mistakes. He doesn't always remove them from a position if they make a big sin or if they cause people to doubt. You have to decide if you can look past that and still believe the lds faith is lead by God, despite these things or if you can't. That is what you have to decide. These are not the only experiences you are likely to experience either. You may experience blessings that you do not feel are inspired. If the spirit is real, you may question if everyone whos say they feel/recognize the spirit really does. You may question if everyone who says they know the church is true really does. Does that mean no blessings are true? Does that mean that the spirit is not real or that no one recognizes the spirit? Do you recognize the spirit? Look at it this way. If you were in a leadership position and you didn't do something right, say you made a rash judgment, would that make the church false? Try to look at it from both sides. I left the lds faith. I had my name removed when I was 19. I was upset with some things leaders had done as well. I questioned church history. But I also realized I wasn't perfect either. I could have acted better with those leaders. I made mistakes too. It wasn't just a one way street. Look at it from both sides. Be open with yourself. I really do hope you find the answers you're looking for.

I enjoyed it.

I'll explain this post to you but I'm not going to continue with this anymore. Like I said before, if you're going to say the reasons an atheist does good is because of their spirit telling them it or them secretly having a belief in an after life, then you would also have to apply that same reasoning to why someone does harm to another. I gave you reasons for why someone would find it logical to be kind to others and spend their time trying to improve the lives of others and their own life. You might personally find it worthless to live if your existence will one day end but atheists and agnostics do not. Saying I can't prove something is a very poor argument. The burden of proof is on you because you're the one stating it. It's the same as me saying "prove there isn't a pink unicorn right now controlling your every action. You can't." That must mean I'm right right? No it doesn't and it would be absurd for me to think so. It would be nothing like this. This has absolutely nothing to do with what you originally stated and I feel you are missing the point of anything I said. We're not talking about when someone is dead and gone. We're talking about why they choose to do what they do when they are alive. We're not talking about some place they never knew of. We're talking about why people choose to give a (insert bad word) about this world. I've already listed a lot of reasons for why people would care to do good in this life. People know of this world. It's not some unseen place. They know life will go on after they die. Maybe some day life will end for all creatures on this world. Maybe our race won't find a way in time for mankind to escape the death of our sun's supernova but that day is not today. You make it sound like there is no point for mankind to even try to progress. Like there is no point to do anything at all worthwhile in this life and if we do try to do good, it's because we have a secret belief in an after life. Instead of jumping to conclusions about what others believe, maybe you should analyze your own thoughts and beliefs. Maybe it's you who would find life meaningless without a religion. Maybe the only reason you try to do good is because of your religion. Maybe you secretly don't want to do things in your religion which are seen as good but feel obligated to do them because of your religious beliefs. Anyways, I've already explained valid reasons why people would choose to do good regardless of their religious beliefs. I can't help if you don't accept that. I can't stop you in believing as you do but you are not right about why I choose to do what I believe to be right and you are not right about any of my atheist friends and why they choose to do what they believe to be right. I hope one day you see that not all people do hold religious beliefs. Think about this question to yourself. If this world is the end, what type of person would you want to be? I'd want to be just the way I am. I don't know if you noticed, but atheists don't kill people in the name of a religion nor do they view religion being a motivation for harm to others as right or morally just. There are a fair amount of atheists who actually find religion harmful but that is a whole other topic. I've never met an atheists who would say it's a good thing for someone to go blow up others if it makes them happy. Society can't function that way. So long as our actions do not harm others, then my guess is that a lot of atheists probably wouldn't find it wrong but not all atheists think exactly the same. This is why I'm not going to continue this conversation. Instead of jumping to conclusions about what someone else believes, I'd recommend going and actually asking an atheist what they believe. Isn't that what you would want as an lds? I'm sure you don't like it when people attempt to tell you what you believe or come to you saying you believe things you don't. Go find an atheist and talk to them without trying to tell them what they believe. Just ask them. Elphaba is a well known and respected atheists by many on these boards. You could try asking her what she thinks. You are missing the point entirely. This isn't about whether some people will rationalize their actions as being ok. Some atheists are not going to care about others the same as all Christians or all religious people don't. You're going to find people who act differently in any group of people. You're going to find people who only care about themselves the same as you will find people who care about a lot of people but that isn't the point as I've already said. You make it sound like atheists couldn't possibly give a (insert bad word) about anyone unless they are religious and that is just absolutely false in every sense of the word. Have you EVER in your entire life talked with an atheist? I don't see how you could possibly have gotten these outrageous ideas if you did.

I have never personally met an atheist that said that but I am sorry you have. Not all atheists are kind the same as not all lds or all people from any group are kind. You're going to find rotten apples in any bunch. There are lot of very friendly atheists out there that would not say those things to you and I hope you meet them some day.

The things we do WON'T be erased in a few years. Like I said before, the people who live after us and those who still live will benefit from what we do with our lives. That is enough reason in and of itself for someone to choose to do good. Atheists don't believe in an after life but they do believe that life will continue even after their own death and life does continue after our own death. If an atheist were to die shortly after helping me in their life, would I say that is some how a waste? Of course not. I will continue living. I won't forget what they did for me. What you do for others has the potential to be like a drop of water in a pond. We can't always see the end conclusion to our actions but that tiny bit of time we spend to make a difference can change the world. We learn from those who have come before us. They are our history. A person does not have to believe in an afterlife to have a desire to do good in this life. What value does this life have to someone after they are dead? After they are dead, none. That wasn't the point you were originally making though. You were saying saying atheists could have no motivation to do good in this life if they believe they will receive nothing when they die unless they secretly believe in an afterlife and that is entirely untrue. But others DO continue to have that memory. Others are affected by our actions after we die. I've never met an atheist who didn't believe life would go on after they die. What you're saying is not the same. If you find it pointless for someone to do good in this life because they believed it will one day end, then you would also have to find it pointless for someone to do evil in this life if they knew it would one day end. I've already listed a lot of reasons for why people choose to do good in this life in my last post but people do good in this life because it makes them happy and it brings happiness to others. They find it is more worthwhile to them than doing wrong to others.

ST JOHN CHAPTER 13 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. THE BOOK OF MOSIAH CHAPTER 2 41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it. THE BOOK OF ALMA THE SON OF ALMA CHAPTER 27 17 Now the joy of Ammon was so great even that he was full; yea, he was swallowed up in the joy of his God, even to the exhausting of his strength; and he fell again to the earth. 18 Now was not this exceeding joy? Behold, this is joy which none receiveth save it be the truly penitent and humble seeker of happiness. THE BOOK OF ALMA THE SON OF ALMA CHAPTER 41 10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness. HELAMAN CHAPTER 13 38 But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. 2nd Nephi Chapter 2 13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. Wait, you're saying someone isn't going to be happier by living the way the lds faith believes one should live? Have you ever heard the saying "Wickedness never was happiness"? The LDS faith teaches that in order for one to be truly happy, you must live a certain way. Why would you want to go to a place for eternity if you don't believe it will bring you happiness? Is what you believe you'll be doing there so different than what you're trying to do and become now? If nothing you do good is for earthly reward, then why do you bother being kind to your children? Why do you bother being kind to others or helping others? Is it only for what you believe will happen after death? Surely that can't be it. You would care about these people and want them to be happy now. Is that not Earthly? I'm not talking about possible persecution someone may face like that expressed in the Bible towards Christ and the apostles. I'm talking about the way you live. Does being chaste, keeping the word of wisdom, going to the temple, paying tithing, praying, going to church etc., not bring you more happiness? If it doesn't, then why do you do it? I remember talking with missionaries once. They asked me if I was happy. I said yes. Then they asked if I wanted to be more happy and proceeded to tell me that the gospel and keeping the commandments would bring me more happiness. That was their opinion but it wasn't the same as what you're saying. My brother is extremely faithful in the lds faith and he expresses it bringing him great happiness. As does my father and many of my lds friends. What you're saying is not coinciding with what they are saying. They do it because they feel more happiness in that way of life. I live the way I do because it is what brings me happiness. I wouldn't consider it the same at all. Other people learn from you. Think off how much we've learned from those who have passed on. We wouldn't have penicillin if someone didn't invent it. We wouldn't have cars, electricity in our homes and so much more if people had not sought to better our world. Maybe they were doing it partly to make a profit but they created a lot of good for society in doing so. What we do can have enormous affects on the surrounding world. That's worth something. That's worth something to me. If I can make a difference in doing that, I don't care if my existence ends or not. I'm making a difference for those who are still alive and those who will come after me. I'm making a difference for my own species. I can die contently knowing I made a difference. Whether I go on existing or not is besides the point. I don't choose to do good to others for any reason other than I care about their welfare. I don't care if I get a reward for it in an after life. I do it because I care about others. It's not a waste. If this life is the only one we ever get, why not live it to the fullest? A sparkler will eventually fade. You'll never get that sparkler back. Does that mean you should just cast it aside because it won't last forever? Enjoy life while it lasts. That is the way I look at it. It's not a sin to be happy. It's ok to smile. I'd rather be a person who sees the glass half full than a person who sees it half empty. There is every reason in the world to avoid a lie to get gain, cheating or suppressing someone else to get gain for yourself and family. There has to be rules for a society to function. I don't cheat on tests because I feel I'll get more out of it by actually doing the work. It's for my best interest to not do that. It makes life a lot simpler to not lie. You have to keep track of all those lies and it can be pretty stressful. People don't trust you and chances are you won't have as good of friends. I don't like being lied to by people. It doesn't make me want to be around them. I also don't want to be around those who cheat and steal. On top of these things, there are other consequences to this. You risk being punished by the law for your crimes which can result in taking away years of your life. Sure, you could take advantage of others in your life but I'd rather earn that reward for myself. It brings a lot more satisfaction to ones self in knowing you accomplished something great. Why would you think other people couldn't want that too? Why would you think others couldn't want the most happiness for everyone? How could atheists some how not have that motive and only be concerned with themselves? Are you assuming no one can get any benefits to caring about the welfare of others in this life? Are you saying the only benefits come from an after life? I would not presume to tell others what they do or do not believe. I know lds do not like having others tell them what they believe. Treat others as you want to be treated. If you would honestly lose all your morals and all your caring for treating others well if you didn't have religion, then I would worry about that. That shouldn't be that way. There is benefit to doing what is right in this life regardless of one's religious beliefs.

Is the only reason you do what you believe to be right because you believe you will be punished if you don't? Is the only reason you find value to this life because you believe there is a God? I am not atheist but I'm not so very different from many of them and many of my friends are atheists. I can tell you that my friends and I do what we believe to be right because we care about others. We know if we don't do something now, we may not have another chance later. What we do for others can have a very large impact on those around us. We seek to do what we believe to be right for the same reasons you seek to do what you believe to be right. Because we believe it will make us happier in this life. Not everything an atheists or agnostic believes is right is going to coincide with what you believe to be right or wrong though. Because others are still going to be affected by what we do. We can make a difference now to affect those who now live and those will come after us. If you knew 100% that there was no God, would you suddenly just stop caring about what others do and think? Would you only care about yourself? No, I don't believe you would and if you say yes then I'd say you never really loved anyone to begin with. I mean look at the LDS faith. The LDS faith teaches that God wants people to live certain ways. Why? Because they believe it will make others the most happy to live that way. So you would continue trying to do what you believe will bring you happiness. Just because our life will end, does not make our lives meaningless. We forget things in our life. Over time our memories fade. Why do anything if you know you're only going to remember a fraction of it? Because it can make a difference now. It can make a difference in our lives as well as brighten someone elses day.

I can definitely relate to having difficulties expressing emotions and what not. Guys in general seem to have a harder time than women in expressing themselves. I have honestly met very few guys if any that have had as much difficulty with expressing emotions as I have but I know why I have difficulty with it. I would say what you described is much of how I felt. I am doing a lot better with it now but never took counseling for it. I don't know if I'd be comfortable enough doing that. I don't know if that prevents you from feeling the holy ghost or not. Maybe. I never felt anything but I suppose that could be why. It's a lot easier for me to feel emotions now but still have a long ways to go. Still, I like your advice.

I don't know what your ward is like, but the bishop I had said he didn't care what I came in. He said my regular clothes were just fine because I said I didn't like wearing suits. In my personal opinion, I'd probably let her wear what she wants but she isn't my grand daughter. Do what you and her parents think are right.

One chapter a day would be my idea for more reasonable but my brother reads an hour each day and he seems to really enjoy it. Just don't burn yourself out. If you find yourself getting worn out, I'd try the one chapter a day idea that many people seem to do. I hope it works out for you.

Ya, again. I went for a walk and people just came out of their yard to greet me. That isn't common back east unless you're a usual walker in a sub division. Even the people I passed smiled. It wasn't like they were just smiling either because they were simply happy. It was like they were smiling at you or about you. It's just a very warm welcoming feeling. I told that to one of my roommates here and he said no one ever talks to him when he passes by. Then again, he rides a bike so no one would have time to really talk to him as he passes by. Even in the stores I went today with one of my brothers, people were just over all much more friendly than what would be considered common back east. I need to call and tell my friends back east about it. See if they would be interested in moving out here. The mountains are quite the sight to see.

Thank you very much for the link Pam. That was a great site. 84.8% are associated with religious congregations with 95% being LDS in Logan Utah. That's sure a big change from what I'm used to.

WOOPS. Didn't realize I posted this in the advice forums. I meant to post it in the general forums.

I just arrived in Logan Utah last night. I'll be living here now. I have two brothers that live here and they've been spending the last couple years trying to get me to move out here. Seems like a rather friendly atmosphere over all from what I've seen so far. People in the grocery store talked to me out of the blue like they knew me. That's not something you would usually expect in a grocery store back where I lived in the east. Not that I'm saying the people back east are not friendly but it's definitely not as common to go talk to people in public unless you know them. It just feels very welcoming here. Still, I'm going to keep a close eye on my wallet lol. Anyways, not sure where I was going with this thread but Logan Utah seems like a great place to raise a family. By the way, anyone by chance have any idea what percentage of people are lds here? Growing up, I was the only lds in my grade and often the only one in my school.

I too have often heard that some people, according to the lds faith, are not or may not be held accountable to their actions of suicide. This was very confusing to me. I felt suicidal for a long period of time and I was strongly considering it. It's true, I wasn't thinking all that rationally. It was like I couldn't see anything positive in life and there was a dark cloud over everything I looked at. There are an enormous amount of factors for why that could have been though. I don't know all of them. But lets say I did kill myself and I wasn't held accountable for killing myself because of my way of thinking. Is that reasoning of not being held accountable ever applied to people who commit murder towards others or only to themselves? It's a very deep subject for me. I'm probably one of the very few people who honestly still don't find suicide wrong but I wouldn't want to do it. I have positive things to live for. I mean the very thought of depression in general I find very confusing. It's something I should really look into more and seek to understand. To me, it felt like people were telling me I wasn't unhappy for the reasons I believed I was. It felt like they were telling me I was unhappy for things I had no control over. I'm not doubting that this may be true for some things. Obviously things can affect the way we feel and think. Going without food, lack of sleep, the weather outside etc. etc. etc. can all affect the way we think and feel. I guess what I'm getting at is to me it would defeat the entire purpose of a test to see what type of person someone would be if they are not even able to rationally control their actions. I mean if they're not held responsible for them, what is the point? If a God is real, I could not see reasoning in that being true. Honestly, that is something that made me doubt God was real. I kind of found it an over whelming subject but it is something I plan to learn more about.