LDSJewess

I personally don't believe that. It makes for a good excuse in my opinion. I eat too much and get sick, diabetes, or obese and it's not my fault it's Satan's. You me it's a way to evade personal responsibility. I think it is our responsibility to make good or bad choices, If we are weak minded in a specific area whether it is eating too much or eating the wrong things oir any other weakness, then we need to asjk Heavenly Father for the strength to overcome our weaknesses. But ultimately the choice is ours. Free agency.

I agree about the nude art classes or posing in the nude, but the dancer was not posing in the nude any more than the swim team was. Danicing is a competitive athletic sport as is swimming and the dancer and the swim team essentially are wearing the same thing so why does BYU feel the dancer needs coundeling whereas the swim team does not. It is the double standard that is in question.

Ok I'm an old lady here so maybe I am just not with it and I have no idea what my kids wear in front of their spouses in the privacy of their own homes. I would just think of garments as underwear. Ask yourself if you wear your underwear under your clothing or do you run around the house wearing just your underwear? I would assume (told you I was an old lady) LOL, that people mostly wore their underwear UNDER their clothes even in front of their husband. When it comes time for intimacy you don't wear underwear anyway so what kind of underwear is a moot point. Maybe it's just me but how many women let their men know that they prefer briefs over boxers or thongs or whatever? The same applies the other way around.

This could be a dead thread but I just noticed it and so adding a comment. 1. I think the talent of the man's dance form is spactacular and I wish him all the best. The ability to dance like that ios a gift. 2. As for the dance shorts, although this is perfectly acceptable for such a performance; this student assumibly has a school hanbood which outlines what is and is not allowed? I don't know, but if this is the case, then when you sign up for the school and you know the rules, you need to abide by them or choose another school. 3. In viewing the video article it does show that BYU find it acceptable to publish the BUY swim team with them wearing the same kind of shorts or some wearing speedos. So to this I would have to inquire as to whether it is ok for the BYU swum team but not participants in the fine arts. Looks a little like a double standard if that is the case. 4. My objection to the dancer is not the dance which is excellent, or the clothing which is appropriate for the venue and performance, but I do not understand why the dancer had to tell the judges publically that his ex wife cheated on him and he was now remarried and this transistion in his life is what insipred him to competition dance. There is absolutely no purpose for him to tell the world that his ex wife cheated. More info than anyone needed to know. If he was inspired from his personal challenges it would have sufficed to say that during his challenges of divorse and remarriage he became inspired to dance, but to drag his ex into it on National TV was in much more poor taste than his brief costume.

OK after reading your second post about the car crashes etc: I hope I did not speak too soon. I advised to let you son go with his father, but I also assumed that his father was a responsible parent. I can certainly understand your concern. BUT that being said, if you must send your son to stay with his father, I don't think a decision about going to the Grand Canyon ot not going to the Grand Canyon will make a difference in the safety of your son. If he is in the care of your husband and if your husband is irresponsible, then any number of things could happen no matter where they are. Perhaps the fact that other family mambers will be there (hopefully some responsible adults), then your son would be safer among them on the trip.

Jennarator, Most of what you describe about your son sounds like a typical active 8 year old boy. Kids of that age do not always think before they act and that is a part of their immaturity and growing up. The bottom line is you cannot protect your son from every possible situation. You can so your best to discipline and supervise, but you also have to let go and trust God. You and your sons father will need to set rules and guidelines and enforce them. Keeping your son from joining his father and other family members for a trip to the beautiful grand canyon may do more harm than good. Your son could resent your decision for years to come. And your ex may very well feel that you are keeping him from enjoying this opportunity with his son. Keep in mind that there is danger everywhere. Your son could stay home and mindlessly climb a tree and fall out of it, or run into the street and get hit by a car, or fall in the shower and hit his head and lapse into a coma and die. We cannot protect our children from every possible scenario. Many Many Many children go to visit the grand canyon and yes many of those children are very active. Let me share something with you to put life, death and children into a bit of perspective for you. I have 14 grandchildren. One of my grandsons is now 12 and very active to the point of being diagnosed ADHD, and to put it mildly his behavior can be quite the challenge for his parents, siblings and entire family. But he is given limits and guidelines and yes he has been to the Grand Canyon three visits that I know of (two prior to the age of 8), and he has also hiked many steep trails in Arizona, went white water rafting and snow skiing. He has never been injured on any of these excursions. I have another grandson that unfortunately died when he was less than 6 months old and he was at the time being held safely in his mothers arms getting ready to nurse when suddenly for seemingly no know reason, he simply stopped breathing and died of sudden infant death syndrome. So you see no matter how safe or unsafe we try and keep our children, Heaven Father ultimately will decide how long we have them with us here on earth. My suggestion is allow your son to build precious family memories. He will grow up an mature and you will all get through it. My best to you and your entire family.

"Vort: "No they can't. I am a slave to my sexual desires. rawr." Well as my Grandpa used to say..... "are you bragging or complaining?" LOL Seriously Vort, what brought me to this thinking is that you repeatedly stated that women dress such as Hooters waitresses and women on the beach wearing bikini's were a sexual distraction and that you believed that this was how the majority of men think. Perhaps what prompted my responses to you were your often specific and graphic descriptions of what YOU experienced or saw when looking at such women. Using terms like "camel toe" and "aerola" imply that you were looking specifically for these parts of the female anatomy to appear. The fact is hooters waitresses do not show these parts with perhaps a few exceptions, and it seems ironic that you happen to be the one who sees the exceptions rather than the norm. Or could it be you are looking specifically for these things. Or could it also be that you see these things in your mind regardless of what is actually being seen to the majority of the world. You addmittedly posted elsewhere that you lived a sheltered life growing up and there is certainly not a thing wrong with that. But others have not been so sheltered and take in stride what you seem to view as porn. My debate with you has not been about you or me rather our differences in symantics in the defining of what is pron and what is immodest. To me prom and immodesty are not the same thing. AS I said before porn is the exploitation of sexual acts. Hooters waitresses and beach girls in bikinis are NOT pornographic. Are they immodest, sure they are. But there is a huge difference. As to do I feel something is disgusting, yes I think pron is disgusting. As for immodesty, for the most part I believe it to be in poort taste. It does not disgust me though as porn does. I think we could come to a better understanding if you would define what porn versus immodesty is to YOU and if, how and why either disgusts you.

Cooking with alcohol does cause the alcohol to burn off, meaning you wont get a buzz from your cabernet chicken. BUT that being said, the only benefit of flavor the alcohol would add to the dish is the sugar content, and fermented sugar is not healthy. Also alcohol will neutralize many esscential vitamins and minerals that your body needs and which you normally get from the food you eat. If these important minerals are being depleted from the alchocl it reduces the nutrition of your mean. And don't we eat to noursih our bodies. Just food for thought. ;o))

Here are my thoughts on this. I think there has to be intent for it to be considered abuse. In other words, withholding love, money, food, basic needs such as shelter etc: and yes, sex is abusive when the person withholding these needs from their spouse is doing it from sipte, anger or free will intention. I do think though that if a couple previously had satisfying sexual relations throughout their marriage and then gradulaly or suddenly desire slowed down or stopped, then I don't see it as intentional abuse, rather some underlying problem that would need t be addressed and attempted to deal with. This happens to some degree with many couples. In younger couples the issue can often be as simple as burn out and stress. Men get burned out when they are overwhelmed with supporting their families and spreading their energies so thin. But men can also have increased sexual needs at times like this because theact gives them a sense of calm and release. On the other hand, when women become over stretched in their time and energy bearing children and caring for their children, they often take a different approach to what calms their stress which can be a time out period. In other words men can destress by having sex. And women destress by having a pedicure, going to a spa or getting a baby sitter so they can chill out. As the couple ages, other biological factors can come into play. For women post partum depression is a very real problem for some women. Some can get to the point that they not only withdraw from intimacy and love for their spopuse but even their extended friends and family and sadly even the child. And as the child bearing years wane, women experience peri menopause when it is like continous PMS for a very extended period of time butting stress and strain on a marriage. Then post menopause, some women regain a renewed higher sexual energy because of their new found sense of freedom. No pregnancy, no more babies, just time to enjoy their woman hood. Yet, some post manopausal women either slow down and although still have a sex life (albeit less frequent), they take on other interests. Older couples also have freedom from careers and with their more disposable income and disposeable time, sex can be put on the back burner and the couples interest is to travel, engage in other hobbies and things that they were too busy to do earlier in life. Yet, some post menopausal women take a been there done that attitide that they did their part in having children and now they want nothing to do with sex. There seems to be more issues regarding this with women, but men have issues as they age too. Natural biology can lower testerone levels. Drugs like viagra are huge sellers because of it. None of these issues and changes in peoples lives are something we can predict. It is important to go into marriage with the best intentions and give it your all. But when either partner faces challenges in their lifes it is important to know that your spouse of all people in the world has your back no matter what. It is a time when you deal with the "for better or for worse part" and selflessly love the other person and sometimes yes you have to think about their needs over your own. Successfulm marriages must always think of them as a two person unit and never an "I" or "me." The most important thing I have found is that marriage has to be looked upon as the creating of a family. I am not talking about having children now (although that is a part of it). In other words it is not just an "I want to feel good" and be in love purpose. It truly is all about those old wedding vows many of which are no longer used. Do you take ____ to be your lawful wedded spouse for richer, poorer, sickness, health, better or worse ...... I think we can so easily lose sight of when the tough things happen , bail out attitude happens. I think divorce can become necessary when there is physical ause that is dangerous to the person or persons being abused. But when one leaves their spouse they are in essense leaving their family member just as surely as if they were to cut of a parent sibling, or child from their lives. It should always be a last resort. Sorry as always for any typos.

Thank you Pam, After his last anti-semitic remark about Jews, I decided rather than fan his fire it would be best to call it a night and pray for him and his family or future family. This is indeed the internet and people come on message boards to create contention for the entertainment of it. I have very serious doubts that a young man who has a profile age of one who could be feasibly a returned missionary, claims to be a member of the LDS church and then selects the user ID "Facism" and then comes to a message board spouting totalarian facist ideas, anti semetic remarks, and derrogatory names to women, hardly fits the profile of an LDS man with a focus on following the Gospel. But well, this is the internet and people can be whomever they propose to be. In the real world, had a young man in our ward carried on the same conversation and expressed the same sentiments, I would pay a visit to my bishop with concerns and hope that the bishop would give the young man appropriate counsel so that perhaps contention among other members and his family or future family could be avoided or resolved. As for the internet, many people visit message boards, and I sincerely hope that any young or easily impressionable person seeking out information about the church will not be turned off or swayed by remarks made by the likes of "Facism." It is most important for those looking into the church to speak with missionaries and people that will guide them into the direction of Heavenly Fathers plan for us.

Young man, you are making a tremendous amount of assumptions about where child support money goes and what ex-wives buy. It appears that you have some experience with this, no? Or just making assumptions. Bottom line is if you choose to marry, be sure to love your wife even as Christ loves the church. If you do not, then you indeed will become a very bitter man and resent having to pay support that is court ordered. Like it or not it is what happens. While you are pursuiing your dreams of a large family you also may want to think about how you actually plan to support this wife and large family. Hopefully you already have a good education and strong career prospects. In today's economy providing a home, clothing, food and education is very expensive, (plan at least $40,000.00 per child for their college education). And in additional to the physical expenses of supporting a family, there is the time and emotional support required to nurture a family. Then there will be time for your career and of course time for church and your calling/s. Before you start multiplying, do the math on the time and expense it will require of you to both emotionally nuture and financially support your family. I will not discuss this further as your idea of marriage and family is so far removed from Gospel principles that it would only create serious contention, and I joined this forum for healthy discussions with other LDS people that are conducive to the purpose of the forum. I truly so hope that as you mature a little you will realize the responsibility and also have a better opinion of women before you decide to marry. If you do not you will likely just be another addition to the divorce statistics.

No actually it is merely an example of what can happen when people marry for heir own personal selfish agenda. Parents are required to support their children and support is not strealing. If you fail to be a loving husband and parent and only use people for your own wants then it is you that would be stealing. I think it would behoove you to read your scriptures and pray about this and see what heavenly fathers plan is regarding marriage and families. And always remember that your life is all about HIS plan not yours.

I am reading a lot of what you want and that is not what marriage is all about. "Any woman I marry" "MY Life's dream". Marriage is never all about what one person wants. With the attitude that nothing not even your wife or love can stand in the way of what YOU want, you are not planning to live according to God's plan rather your own. If you do wind up marrying and having children, your wife may eventually be unhappy that she is being used as a baby factory and she just may decide to leave you, take the kids and you get to pay the child support. But perhaps your view of marriage is just another answer to the original posters question.

Hmmmmm It just also occurred to me that I wonder how it would have turned out if the aging couple Sarah and Abraham divorced because after waiting many many years (I am sure it was likely more than 5), decided to divorce. They had FAITH and they were blessed with children. Abraham became the father of many Nations and the father of Israel. It isn't entirely clear but it is implied that they were well past the age of child bearing but they had faith.

Sorry Fascism, the problem with our society is that there is a lot of multiplying and not enough love and responsibility. If you are not capable of loving your wife unconditionally, then you will likely be also incapable of loving your children unconditionally in which case you are not as yet knowledgeable enough or mature enough to take on the responsibility of being a spouse no less a parent. Marriage and parenting is not some "happily ever after" fairy tale that works fine as long as everything goes the way you want it. I would also be curious if it turned out that you were the one that was unable to father biological children. Would you expect your wife to leave you in such a case. What if you had an accident or became ill? All I can say is hopefully you will grow up and mature a lot before you marry and attempt to have kids. I am a grsandmother now but I am also the product of irresponsible people that did not think before they decided to procreate, and I can assure you it is painful for all involved. Seriously you need to pray about this and not try and twist the scriptures to suit your personal desires.

@Dahlia, I think staying off the anti sites is an excellent suggestion. I can assure you some of the things posted on those sites regarding garments are false so you will not get reliable information there. If some of their photos were not so degrading and insulting they would almost be hilariously funny. I mean some of those sites were showing so galled garments with pentacles and all kinds of satanic symbols. You will find there is nothing so dramatic. Also there are many fashionable clothes that can be worn over garments. I have always been interested in fashion and a big trend now that is a timeless look is shrugs or bolero type tops to be worn over tanks or sleeveless dresses. Also I found a new style tee shirt that is constructed like a regular tee shirt but with a sheer chiffon ruffle from the shouders covering the tee shirt sleeves. Very garment friendly and really cute. Love these prairie skirts that have come back in style, long and flowy and look great with the tanks and shrugs or the ruffle sleeve tee's. @O2BNSD I will check with my ward clerk this weekend and get my member number and go from there. My last garments were a droopy cotton and very ill fitting. I am eager to try this new Carinessa fabric as I am athletic and like spandex like fabrics and a close fit. I also like the idea of buying separate sizes. My first garments were suggested by a matron at the Temple and we just went with regular medium on both pieces which never fitr right. I'm 5'7" and don't look petite but I am much larger on top and smaller on bottom as in a size 14 top and 4 bottom long torso and shorter legs. So an ideal fit according to sizing charts is an XS petite bottom and a med to large tall top. I think proper fit is the key.

Or..... maybe all those Jewish ladies had an "Auntie Clairol" just like me. LOLOL (Just couldn't resist).

There are many many factors that come into play and selfishness is certainly a problem in this "me" generation. But there are many other factors as well. Statistics have reported that 51 percent of baby boomers were divorced. Sad but possibly true and I am one of those numbers. When I was in high school I heard my father say to my uncle, "having two daughters and no sons is saving me money because I don't have to worry about sending them to college." Back in the 60's many girls graduated from high school and were encouraged to marry to keep their chastity, and were expected to bear and raise children. Men were expected to work and support them. The problem was that these young brides and grooms were children themselves that had no idea of what the responsibility entailed of being an adult no less an adult responsible of raising children and supporting a family. Many of these young couples had three or four children without having acquired first the education, resources to accomplish the tasks before them and so it is no surprise that 51 percent of the marriages failed. We baby boomers were also growing up in a world of fantasy stories like Cinderella and Prince Charming where girls were swept away to live happily ever after. Songs I heard as a teenager were "white on white - lace on satin" and "Going to the Chapel of Love." We were all encouraged by wearing that white dress and veil, having bridesmaids all dressed in pretty pastels, lots of flowers, showers, gifts and the good wishes of friends. Girls were caught up in becoming a bride not a wife and mother. Men were caught up in the romance of it all too. And back in those days men were expected to marry a girl BEFORE sexual relations and girls offering those kind of favors before the engagement ring were in minority. My first husband caved under the stress of having to support a family and became an alcoholic which led to wife beating. Personally I prayed that he would be unfaithful so he wouldn't come home because I feared the abuse. Divorce can be caused for many reasons from just being selfish and not wanting to work on a marriage to far more serious matters such as alcoholism, abuse, drug addiction, incest, infidelity or a host of other reasons. And although I do not believe divorce can be avoided altogehter because we cannot see what the future will bring; we can be far more selective on choosing a partner that we get to know. Pre marital counseling to discuss expectations regarding finances, sex, children and any and all important issues is paramont. I believe any woman would be absolutely devastated if their husband left them because they could not bear children. I hope Fascism is just young and has not developed the maturity yet, in which case it is unadvisable for him to marry until he gets the true meaning of marriage and it is not just all about baby making. I also believe especially in todays world that it is more important than ever for young people to obtain further education (both men and women), and both should have the opportunity to choose a fulfilling career. Educated mature adults made better spouses and better parents, and have the ability to make better choices on the person they decide to marry. It will also be beneficial when the children can learn by example from mature adults that are responsible enough to take on all of the challenges that marriage and children brings.

I believe that he was, and although there is no written documentation it still may be assumed. Jesus was both Jewish by birth heritage and also the intregal part of the restoration of the church. Both the cultires and the religions of Judiasm and Latter Day Saints have a very strong emphasis on marriage so I believe he was married. To whom or how many woves I do not know, but I agree with bytebear, it has no bearing on our faith or our salvation.

Regarding the Chaplain (hate doing the quote because ot makes it harder to follow), I do agree that parents should be notified as to exactly where their children are going. It would be important to me because I would like to maintain control over the rearing of my children. But frankly, I would have been just as concerned over Hooters BECAUSE of the unhealthy food served there. I want to be sure my children follow habits of good nutrition and not wind up with an early death due t obesity, diabetes, cancer and heart disease. To me this is far worse for my children than them seeing a waitress wearing short shorts and a tight tank top. As for Vort, we simply will need to agree to disagree. I do find that you seem to have an intense preoccupation with sex and the female body. Some of this may be natural in men I agree, but the way you are continously graphically describing the female anatomy borders on being obsessed and degrading toward women, and sorry that is not the norm of men. Perhaps adolescent boys and teens, but if your profile age is correct, you are not typical in your thinking and this kind of thinking does not make you more macho or masculine. If you truly are offended or disgusted by anyone that does not fit into your standards of modesty, I suggest you stay off beaches, shopping malls and any public place that you could encounter an offensive immodest female. If you continue to completely shelter your children from viewing a human body, you can be assurred eventually curiosity will get the better of them and cause them to make incorrect and unhealthy choices. I think it would be far better to acknowledge the world for what it is and rather than judge it at every turn, use the energy to set a good example for yourself and spend time finding the beauty in the world and in life and not focus on the negative.

Well if you are looking for simply an answer as to WHY a person is disgusted by certain things, my answer is the reason I am disgusted is when something that I find offensive has a direct effect on another person. I do get annoyed however when it appears that transgressions are believed to be worse "sins" if they are sexual in nature. I believe that people that have that much focus on sex is not healthy themselves about how they view sex, If a couple decides to take a video of themselves, that is purely their business and not considered pron in my book unless it is exploited for any reason, money thrill, or any reason). If they do this in the privacy of their own home that is entirely their business and certainly not pron. But I would still advise against even thoug I don't find it particularily disgusting. I have a friend who allowed her husband to photograph them in the act, and later they were divorcing due to his being abusive to her. She was afraid to press charges because she feared him retaliating because he threatened to post the photos on a social,netowrking site. My suggestion is that you need to think of what "could" happen down the line. Photos, videos, posts on the web, they never go away, so if you are not comfy with sharing and baring it all to the public, don't create a situationn where it could ever become public. But moving back to what is sinful, immodest, disgusting etc: I listed things that have nothing to do with sex that disgust me a lot more than a porn movie would. For instance, I can choose not to view porn. But I can't choose to get away from a drunk driver sharing the same road as me. I cannot get away from breathing toxic air of a smoker in a public place. I find all that a lot more disgusting than a girls wearing bikinis on the beach. And I think as far as "sin" or transgression goes, I don't think God thinks of sexual transgression or immodesty worse than other transgressions. A woman spreading gossip or bearing false witness about another is perhaps to me more disgusting than an honest hard working Hooters waitress clad in shorts and a tank top. I am over 60 and well traveled and I have been to many a beach out of the country where it is customary for sun bathers to wear their "birthday suits" and as it is said some birthday suits are ironed and some are not ironed (meaning the old er unclothed folks have wrinkled birthday suits). Being an American where nudism is not accepted, I would not be comfortable sunbathing nude even in countries where it is perfectly acceptable. But sharing a beach with these folks and yes with my clothed kids and grandkids, we do not feel aroused or out of place, rather we just accept the culture for what it is. Plenty of people from children to seniors in their 80's and older walking around the beach in their birthday suits with it all flopping and hanging out, and no one thinking of it as porn or even imodesty. I think some of the obsession with nudity in America comes from those who lived a more sheltered life and find the nude body as mysterious as non members of the lds church find garments. I think it is fine to choose to practice modesty for ourselves without being aghast or judgemental over the choices others make.

Connie, Here's sending another warm welcome. May you continue to grow in faith and find eternal joy as a Latter Day Saint.

And again, I believe it comes down to what we each believe as pronographic and what we view as immodest. So since you are asking what we think, I can only tell you what I think and believe regarding this. In my opinion pronography is the exploitation and exhibitionism of the sexual act which degrades another human being, and exhibits and promotes violence in relationship to sex. Immodesty is behaving a manner in speech, acts or dress in poor taste. But neither of the above are according to the standards of the LDS church or how I choose to live. In other words sundresses are not immodest and definitely not pornographic, even though they are not modest enough for a Mormon woman because garments cannot be concealed under them. So does anything actually disgust me? Yes. But sexual issues are not necessarily on the top of my list. Here is what I find totally disgusting in no particular order: I think malicious gossip is disgusting. I think hypocracy is disgusting. From a sexual standpoint I believe pedophilia, rape, incest and the harming of children in any way including beating them or abusing them even in non sexual ways is disgusting. Curelty to animals is disgusting. Advertizing prescription drugs on prime time TV telling people to check with their Doctor to see if they need a drug that they actually disclose as being a cause of heart attack, stroke and death. Cigarette smoking is disgusting and I find it highly offensive when skmokers smoke outside or on a public beach forcing others to smell and inhale their toxins. And I also find it disgusting when people harm the bodies of themselves and the bodies of their children by stuffing themselves with sugar, fats, salts and chemicals causing diabetes, obesity and early death. All the above to me is equally disgusting and frankly more disgusting then someone wearing a bikini on a beach or serving food at hooters in short shorts and tank top. Oh and not to personnaly offend Vort but to me your profile music borders on disgusting (in my opinion of course). Let's just say if I were attending a dance or function where this music was playing, I would vacate the place in less than five minutes. So as you can see we all have varying opinions on what is and is not disgusting. You asked so that's my answer. No intent to personally offend. Sorry also for any typos.

I am not saying that alll men become rapists because a women is not dressed modestly (by their definition of modesty). What I do take issue with is when men cannot seem to take control over their minds and bodies, then they don't see it as THEIR problem and in turn blame the women for their problems and thus impsoing rules and yes even laws on women regarding what is and is not modest in THEIR eyes. Men have free agency just as women do, and if men cannot control their urges then that is their free agency and they are accountable for not just their acts but their thoughts and urges.

Vort in an sense yes. They have been man a defense attorney representing a rapist that has tried to put the rape victim on trial because "she was asking for it the way she was dressed." I am also saying that not every man does think the same about what arrouses him. Using the Burqa for example or the days of women not allowed to show the tops of their boots in Victorian America are a case in point. I am not saying LDS women should work at Hooters nor should LDS husbands frequent the place or take our kids there, but living by the rules that we signed up for when we joined the church and judging others who don't live by our standsards are two different things indeed.