james12

I am talking about a state of mind, not a list of ideas you should keep in your head. There is a way to approach God. Here is how Jacob states it: I am not stringing a list of scriptures together with no thought. I am trying to explain to you the process. But very well, continue as you have done. As I explained above.

I commend you for your efforts. It is more than most bother to do. I would say, ask one last time in sincerity, and cast pre-conceived notions away before you pray. Just try it. I have prayed that he would give you an answer tonight if you ask in earnestness. If your open and he doesn't respond, then I wish you well in this important search. Listen to Paul from Mars Hill, "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring" (Acts 17:27-29). Or again speaking to the Hebrews, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come..." (Heb 6:4-5). Feel after him and taste the word he will speak to your heart. You asked how the process works. I endeavored to explain it. The Bible can be misinterpreted in so many ways by the unenlightened. Just look at all the religions. If the Bible, without personal revelation, were conclusive we would have one Christian religion. But you have more than my word on this subject, Jesus himself tells us to look inward, "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21). Not only that but he tells the Jewish rulers, "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life" (John 5:39-40 ESV). Those scriptural scholars would not accept him while he was with them. If I had not received an answer I would keep what he has told me in my heart. I would not discount his words unless I knew otherwise. Moreover, if I did know and he told me to pray one last time you can bet I would do it.

You are not threatening God, nor giving Him an ultimatum. This is about you making a decision and then asking him for guidance. Finding false teachings is important. However, it has been my experience that uncovering and being open to truth is the greater need. For example the other day I read a statement about reincarnation which said, "The soul of Elijah, after converting his physical body into luminous astral energy and ascending to heaven "in the whirlwind of a fiery chariot," remained in the astral land to be timely reincarnated as John the Baptist to witness for the divine mission his disciple Elisha, reincarnated as Jesus, was preordained to fulfill" (The Second Coming of Christ, The Resurrection of the Christ Within You, p 41-42) Now, some might compare this teaching to Christianity and point to Bible scriptures "proving" it as false. But how I come to know it is false is not by rejecting it out of hand because it is different. Rather, I look inward. How does this statement feel? Does it "taste" good to my spirit? Does it give light to my mind? On the other hand does it cause me unease and unquiet? By this process I recognize it as false. Note: Words here are hard to come by. I say "feel" or "taste" and this is right to a point, but it still seems a little incomplete. I guess I'm saying that words are in some measure insufficient to describe this process. Indeed. Just as there are multiple ways to look at a miraculous healing (the power of Beelzebub comes to mind) or to see the resurrection as a hoax. At the end of the day, it all comes down to knowing how to find truth because people question witnesses, as you have done.

Joseph Smith said, "The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence." Such intelligence expands the mind, enlightens understanding. The result of such knowledge is, "love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith". I would say, pray with sincerity on the matter. Tell the Lord you have been asking but have not received a clear answer and that without an answer you will move on and will not further pursue the BofM and the LDS church. And then ask one last time if the BoM contains the word of God and was brought forth by his power and direction, then pause, listen, and consider in your heart and mind. If understanding elightens your heart and mind on the matter you will know. If it does not, then move on. For some reason, the time is not right. I have used the above method over and over again. I have found out that the BofM is the word of God, and that Joseph was a prophet of God. I have also found truth in other religions teachings. Moreover, I have found false teachings using the method. It takes time and practice. Spiritual matters do not come in a day. They must be cultivated over years. Very well. Read Joseph's eyewitness account of seeing the Father and Son and follow him. Read the accounts of the three witnesses who testify they saw an angel and handled the BofM. If you accept this as fact then there is nothing to do but join the LDS church. But I would guess you are not so quick to believe. I would guess that you will question what you have read. We live in a different age. An age which has been taught to question every fact, which has been taught to disbelieve in the spiritual, which has been taught that such things as new scriptures are false. For this reason we say ask God.

You have not questioned what I previously posted so, based on Alma 32 and Moroni 10 you should now know how to distinguish truth from error. Try the word, do the work, and see if it begins to enlarge your soul, enlighten your understanding, and be delicious to your soul. Have you followed Moroni's promise? If not, why do you continue to question and yet do not follow these simple steps? This is the way to know. Such understanding comes through the spirit, not through man's methods. The Lord at times uses man's methods to support personal revelation but not to superceed it. It has always been this way, and will continue to be so. There are witnesses of the Book of Mormon but their testimony simply leads a person to ask God in faith. Personal revelation is the first step to knowledge of the things of God. Once you have this truth then continuing down this same path you can know the truth of all things.

How do I say this, how do I correct this thinking? All of us are sinners before God. Every last person now living on this entire planet has fallen short. By the strict rule of the law (and your standard) they should be cut off from God's presence, to be "angels to a devil". But this is clearly not how it works. I have the best news in the world. The Lord will help you even though your not perfect! What's more, all your effort in this life can never make you perfect. What you will find is that every time you try you will fall short. Again, and again, and again, you will not be able to do it. But guess what? You never needed to do it. Satan put's this lie into your head. Your imperfection is not keeping you from God, instead it is the false walls disbelief you have built up that keep you from him (not him from you). Here is how Paul in the New Testament explains it: Humbling ourselves before God and placing all our faith in Jesus Christ is all that is required! Through Christ's atonement we imperfect people can be made right. Not because of what we do but because of what he did, and because we trust in him. But faith is not simply believe that there is a God or that Christ suffered on the cross. True active faith is much more powerful. It is believing to the core of our being that Christ can save you and me. Christ can make you whole. When we are in his love and spirit surrounds us, our guilt is swept away. Just trust in him and plead with him to help you through and he will. Not because you are perfect, but because he loves you and you need him. I tell you this not because I have read about it but because I have experienced it. I, a sure sinner, have pled before God and he has freed me from my crushing burden of guilt. I follow him not because the commandments demand it but because he has saved my from all my self inflicted pain. He can do the same for you. I know it.

Was there emotion before the fall? Yes. But when society reaches a certain state of progression they do not deal with the sorrow and pain they once did. In such a state further growth is slow. They are effectively impeded in their progression. Thus a new and more difficult challenge must be offered. With this new challenge comes deeper pain but also a greater joy. The garden is the zenith of progression for a society in its current state. In such a state a new challenge must be offered, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This new challenge and opportunity represents a step up in progression. When an individual partakes of this new more difficult challenge he inevitably falls. His work is then to overcome his current fallen condition. In so doing he is lifted up to a new state with deeper joys, greater love, and a more complete happiness. Christ is the great prototype. Having descended below all is now the greatest of all. Having suffered greater contradictions than man can suffer he is filled with deeper joy and love.

I agree that there is at times a consequentialistic approach presented by individuals within the church. However, I find it has little support in the scriptures and I would say on an individual level it is not part of the gospel. Your examples of the the word of wisdom and chastity are not the reasons most members obey these laws. Rather, they are side benefits. The example of keeping the commandments to prosper in the land is interesting. I would say this is applicable in aggregate but not on an individual level. For example, the Nephites prospered in the land if they kept the commandments but someone like Abinadi is still burned at the stake even though he was a prophet of God.

This is not part of the gospel as believed by LDS people. The ends do not justify the means because we do not know all the consequences of our actions (which extend into the next life). A common hymn says, "do what is right let the consequence follow" because right is right regardless of earthly outcomes. I believe this hits closest to what we believe. In the Book of Mormon Moroni said, "For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing....Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift" (Moroni 7:6,10). God works from the inside out. He changes our hearts and we change our actions. Rules by themselves do not change a man. Nephi hit on this point when he said, "Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away" (2 Ne 25:27). We must begin with rules and consequences but they are not the end. At some point, they become dead. The law is designed to change us and lead us to follow Christ's way.

I see this portion of Alma 32 setup in two phases. First planting the seed, and second, after it is planted, nourishing the tree. Here is an outline: 1. Planting the Seed a. The seed is the word (v28) or in other words a gospel truth (not faith). b. We must give place in our heart for the seed, good or bad. At this stage we must not cast it out either way because of unbelief. Those who cast the seed out at this stage have not even given it chance to grow or not. They simply reject the word without any serious consideration. c. If it is a good seed it will: enlarge your soul, enlighten your understanding, and begin to be delicious (end of v28). A bad seed will do no such thing, it will simply not grow at all (v32). d. At this stage the bad seed is cast away (end of v32). After having tested the word we can now cast it out because it is dead. 2. Nourish the Tree a. Goal - Allow the tree to take root, grow, and bring forth fruit (v37). b. If the tree is neglected and not nourished it will wither away (v38). At this stage, we know the seed is good for it began to grow earlier. There is clearly no problem with the seed. c. Instead the problem is with the ground which has been neglected, and with the lack of care given the tree (v39). d. With faith, great diligence, and patience, looking forward for the fruit it will take root (v41). c. Once it takes root it will bear precious fruit which will allow the individual to reep the rewards of their faith (v42-43) Regarding other religions. I have tested some in this manner. As of late I have found some good fruit in the eastern religions. What I have learned is precious to me indeed.

I believe that the problem with creeds are not so much what they say, though this is often a problem, but rather the limits they place on belief. Joseph once explained,“I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes, and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’; which I cannot subscribe to.” (HC 6:57) Any time we place a limit on what we believe we cut ourselves off from revelation and further light. The world fears to belive too much about God and his ways. They seek hard to set up limits about who God is and corral people to their way of thinking. As lds we must not do the same. Frankly, I fear that we have set up too many limits ourselves. Certain early doctrine is now rejected by many members. Joseph did not fear a person believing too much if he searched in the light of the spirit, but rather too little.

Amen Iggy, and amen Prisonchaplain. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, the Saviors way is difficult, he wants us to give him everything. He does not want a part of "our" time and "our" money, he wants it all. And when we give are all we will get his all, who is the greatest of all. While his way is difficult our way is impossible. We want to give up those things that are bad but at the end of the day are still hoping that our natural man will still have some time to do what it wants. When we are neither hot nor cold we find the christian way very difficult. We end up very unhappy indeed because we begrudge giving up every moment of ourselves. However, what we can't do, what we must not do, is to work harder but still try to cling to the self. Instead, we have to humble ourselves before the Lord, acknowledge that we cannot do it and ask for a new heart. Ask, ask, ask. When our heart is broken and we our sincere we will find that we want to follow him. We have been changed! The natural man is still there but he has much less sway over our hearts. Then the living water infuses out life and we can drink deeply. I am so satisfied with this gospel life. I feel like I want to give my joy to everyone. The waves foll and the thunder peals but deep down the spirit of the Lord is supporting me. What of the waves? What of the thunder? Let them rage on if they will, I have something much more firm, and more abiding, the rock of our Redeemer. He will lift me up at the last day and all this will seem as but a moment. This is what the gospel offers. If you have not found it then you are still on the outside, even if you have been a member your whole life! (This sounds sort of preachy, but it's the truth. How can I say otherwise?)

If she is righteous I have no doubt angels have ministered to her and continue to do so. She is simply unaware of their presence. When our minds and hearts are right before God then we will see them (Moroni 7:30). The ministering of angels is an outpouring of the Spirit. Those who walk in the spirit hear their words, feel their presence, and know them. Of course this is just a step on the road of sanctification. Paul clarifies for the Hebrews the importance of looking to the Son of God and not simply angels. It appears the Hebrews were to focused on this subject for he says, "[Christ] being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" (Hebrews 1:4-5). He continues to show how the Son is superior to angels. The chapter ends with this interesting comment, "Therefore, angels are only servants - spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation." (Heb 1:14 NLT). Then our work is to ensure our inheritance and we will be cared for.

Yes a reward according to work done in this life, or according to work we would have done if we had had the opportunity, or been permitted to tarry. But a person will not be added upon in the spirit world. Instead repentance will simply allow an individual to obtain the reward they qualified for while in the flesh.

All heirs of salvation both living and dead will eventually repent, bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ. It may be now or just before the final resurrection but they will turn to God. Before they turn they will suffer in anguish of spirit. Missionary work on the other side will bring them to a knowledge of God and allow them to receive happiness and truth while in the spirit. At the end of that time they will be resurrected and receive their bodies. The glory or kingdom they receive will be based on the light they accepted while here in the flesh. "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened." (D&C 88:28) Note the present tense "are quickened". We must obtain glory here and now while on the earth. We must purify these bodies. We cannot purify our bodies in the spirit world for we will not have them. Thus we read, "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6, see also D&C 138:34). In the spirit they will accept the gospel and receive the happiness and blessings of it, however, they will be judged according to the flesh and only receive the glory they were willing to accept while here on this mortal sphere. Again we read, "And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation." (D&C 138:59). We must work here and now to progress in glory and receive a higher kingdom. Work towards that end must be done in mortality.

Yes I agree, we must have God in the equation, but God can and does communicate through angels. In fact, Mormon is very blunt regarding the matter when he says, "And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. ...And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased? Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?" (Moro 7:33, 35-36). This does not apply to other people, it applies to us. Do we see such gifts of the spirit in our lives? If not, why not? Do we lack faith? For if we have faith then the gifts of the spirit will be given.

I don't think it is a stretch at all. He says he has been visitied and I have no reason to doubt him. In the world there are very few who behold angels, even with the eye of faith. And it certainly is a gift as Moroni testifies, "And again I exort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many: and they come from the same God." He goes on, "And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits" (Moroni 10:8,14). Further, I have no problem with a person seeking any gift of the spirit. However, it is important to not look beyond the mark, which is Christ. We do this when we exclude him from our spiritual walk in any form or fashion. Yes, we have the right to the ministering of angels, but the right is different from the ability. God gives different gifts to different people. "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will" (1 Cor 12:11). I do agree that we should work and obey God. But I see no problem with ministering of angels so long as Christ is at the center of what we seek and what we do.

Hi Lennoxlewy, It sounds like you have been given a special gift. I think it can be a great blessing to you throughout your life. Let me just give you a couple of my thoughts. Angels may in special circumstances come and communicate in our language. However, Nephi talks about speaking with the tongue of angels (ie their language) and it is by means of the Holy Ghost. He says, "Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ" (2 Ne 32:3). Note that term, the power of the Holy Ghost. It is by the power of the spirit that they speak. This is the language of heaven. We must grow to learn how to understand/feel the spirit, by so doing we are communicating with heaven. Holy angels come in the service of the Lord. We are the ones who need to hear the truth from them. We are the ones who inhabit this mortal realm who need their support. I find it strange that you would tell them to go serve. They come to tell us and to deliver messages from the Lord to us. When we listen to them and do as they ask, we are also fellow servants. The Aaronic priesthood holds the keys to the ministering of angels (D&C 84:26, D&C 13). Angels are a stepping stone to help us gain more light and knowledge. But Paul in Hebrews puts the situation in the right order, he says the Son is superior to the angels (see Heb 1:5-13). It appears some of the Hebrews were focused on angels. So we too, must continue on the path, until we pass the angels and gain the "testimony of Jesus" and our eternal salvation. May the Lord bless you on that walk.

Abinadi taught us, "I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son" (Mosiah 15:1-2) Christ, before coming down to earth was of a different status, a different order or rank entirely, called by Abinadi "the Father". He was and is greater than us. He is the first born in the spirit and the only begotten in the flesh. He is creator and ruler. His condescension is that he gave up such glory to enter a new condition, an abject and dependent state known as "the Son". A God has come down from eternal realms of glory and laid aside his crown for me and you! He, the rightful ruler of the world, will suffer! This is who Nephi speaks of in 1 Ne 11:26-33. But Nephi also relates to us of another, "And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit, and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of time the angel spake unto me saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms" (1 Ne 11:19-20). God, the Eternal Father, has come down. He is no more subject to the condition called "the Son" but is, and always will be Father. He is the Father of Jesus. It seems I can just barely glimpse it, just barely understand. How I wish I could see more.

The ministering of angels is given to all those who worthily partake of the sacrament and commit in their heart to follow the son and keep the promises. It is through the Aaronic priesthood that this promise is given but it is extended to all members of the church. Please note that angels minister on a very regular basis and are mostly unseen. Elder Dallin H. Oaks said it in these words:

Aligirl, two questions for you to help us understand the situation. 1. Why exactly are you conflicted about wearing the temple garment? 2. How committed are you to the covenants you made in the endowment? I think answers to these two questions will help both you and us understand where you are coming from.

I agree there is no formal promise to wear the garment. That is because the garment is a symbol. What it truly symbolizes cannot be removed but remains with us throughout our life. However, one who doesn't wear the garment, for some of the above reasons, does not understand, or has likely not fully accepted the covenants that the garment is associated with.

I agree this is not a garment issue per se. The first presidency letter says this about wearing the temple garment: This statement was in relation to the proper way to wear the garment, but perhaps it also applies in reverse to this case. I could see some argument about how covenants were made and if made that the garment must be warn.

The gospel is the step by step ascent back into the Lord's presence. Covenants are the means to get there, ordinances point the way.

Let me clarify one point here. Cain is a Son of Perdition, he will not be saved. He has broken the link and instead sealed himself to the devil. I believe the promises in these quotes we are discussing make an unstated exception for the Sons of Perdition.