james12

Then perhaps I should re-word Brigham Young's statement so that I'm not confused. I think this may capture it: What a special promise this is! Through my faith and prayers I can visit this wicked person any time I want! If I hadn't yearned for, and pleaded with the Lord for years I would not get to visit him in the Telestial kingdom, and how sad my life would have been. Now, while this is a joke, I do not find it very far from what you and others are telling me. I believe children will suffer for what they have done wrong. They may also enter another kingdom for their poor choices. And yes their additional light may make them more culpable. But you are describing to me one eternal round. What of the next, and the next? Elder Whitney says in this life or the next they will return and I believe at some point they will. Perhaps you don't hold to such a belief? We'll then we will simply disagree on this point. Maybe this is what the discussion boils down to.

I don't see it as a competition. God works through us to help save his spirit children, and our physical children. Of course I don't know all the ways God works, but even Elder Bednar acknowledges that parents who honor covenants activate "tentacles of divine providence." For example, our ability to recognize and accept truth comes to us in large part from our parents, along with other blessings as Theodore M. Burton states: We do not know the exact context of what BY meant when he says, "return to the fountain from whence they sprung." But, I submit that neither you nor I would be satisfied with the promise given by BY if what he meant was that we could visit our wicked children when we wanted to. I agree on all counts. I am not saying that children are free to act evil and they can enter the Celestial kingdom. I am simply saying that at some point, perhaps not even in this life, the child will choose to repent and return and it will be due in no small part to the promises the parents obtained from the Lord. As stated previously I do not believe that the child can act against the commandments of the Lord and be saved. However, Mormonisim also acknowledges that before this life some were more valiant in the pre-earth life than others. Might it be possible that these valiant children were given to valiant parents? Would this not satisfy both the promise and at the same time allow agency to work? Further, we have a very limited view of what happens after this life. I believe children of promise can a will change at some future time. Of course there is a possibility that at some future day they may deny the Holy Ghost and become sons of perdition but this door is always open.

Church, your last paragraph adequately describes the very problem this modified description of sealing can present. It can lead one to conclude that an eternal bond between parent and child matters no more than anyone else's love and concern for another person. I say no! The Lord's promises are not so weak. A couple who has their calling and election made sure, who has been sealed up unto eternal life, and who have been sealed to their children, will, with the help of the Lord, draw their children back unto them. It may not be in this life, it may extend beyond the bounds of our current realm of understanding, but they will come back. And by come back I do not mean saved in the Telestial kingdom, this is no promise at all. No, father, mother, and child, saved in the Celestial kingdom, bound together through everlasting bonds.

In the context of this discussion we must talk about parents and their children. The promise is to parents of wayward children. No doubt God would like all people saved, however, he is not their physical Father. As spirits, we were sons and daughters of God, but of course we passed our first estate. There is only one form of creation for men and women, as Brigham Young said: And so I have compared God's son to our sons and daughters. Christ is saved, and the priesthood remains with him for all eternity. So I see there has been a bit of a discussion on this point. When BY says, "They will return to the fountain from whence they sprung" he is talking about children being with their righteous parents. As you have commented there is a separation between kingdoms. This earth life is evidence of that separation. We cannot see God unless we change. We are blind in our minds and hard in our hearts. A child in a lower kingdom is separated from their parents just as we are separated from God. This cannot be the meaning of the word sealing. As I said, it dilutes the entire promise.Children are sealed as heirs to their parents, as Christ is an heir to his Father. Our children are likewise heirs. Christ was one with his Father as we may be one with our children. Christ and the Father are united through the Spirit. Distance has no effect on this union.

Quite right. The promises of the Lord do not over rule the gospel fundamentals of repentance and free agency. Elder Bednar makes this point and I do agree. Rather, the promises of the Lord fit within the gospel framework. I believe there is room for both the exercise of agency and the fulfillment of the Lord's promises. This is because we know so little about our life before this earth, how the Lord may bless our children, and so little after it. That is why I am hesitant to discount Elder Whitney's statement, or ones like this from Brigham Young:

It may be as you say but this distinction is more of a modern one. When Elder Whitney says "saved" I'm not sure he is separating it from exaltation. Here is what Elder McConkie said: Christ is God's only child begotten in the flesh, and Christ is the very prototype of a saved being. So I reject the notion that God cannot save those whom he has begotten in the flesh. The problem is that we cannot save those born to us. I'm not ready to lay limits on who God can and cannot save. And in the end, it is not our effort that saves wayward children, but His.

I'm not sure what I think about this article. In essence he is diluting the statement by Elder Whitney who said in part, "The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity." He takes this statement to mean that faithful parents who are sealed up unto eternal life have the opportunity to help their children in this life and the next, but they have no promise that their children will be saved. Moreover, he further differentiates by saying they may be saved but not exalted. Am I missing something? So now if one is sealed up unto eternal life it simply gives you the opportunity to help save your children? Obedience to the covenant does not secure your children to you? Apparently the doctrine taught by Joseph wasn't all that comforting. I'm going to have to think about this some more...

A classic for the New Testament is Sketches of Jewish Social Life by Alfred Edersheim. I'm not sure about the Old Testament.

Anatess has got it right. When you believe in him enough to seek his will then your prayers will be answered. You see, I do not want to go my own way. I want to do what he wants me to do. I have tried to do it on my own and it only brings disappointment and misery. This does not make me weak. Quite the opposite. It makes me strong and free. You see it's not easy to truly follow Christ. He will whisper things you should do and you need to act on what he tells you. These things are sometimes not easy. Moreover the adversary pushes you to do the opposite. The weak ones are those who have given into the worlds ways. They think they are strong when they are truly weak. They think they are independent when they are actually trapped. Giving into sexual desires, chemical highs, and self gratification in any situation makes no one free. Also, the Lord does not typically answer prayers by changing circumstances. He changes hearts. He works from the inside out. So be cautious about expecting him to change your circumstances, you cannot grow if you ask him to remove all your trials (or someone elses). Instead ask him to strengthen you that you can overcome the challenge in front of you. Then watch how your day improves. Watch how your heart is lightened and you are able to do more. Watch how people who you are praying for begin to feel differently. Maybe their heart is softened, maybe they are more happy. He will and does answer. I have seen it over and over again. I'll pray for you on this very subject. If you are sincere about wanting to see the Lord's hand in your life then focus on your heart. I think you might gain understanding and start to feel differently. Then you will know he has answered me and you.

Yes, sometimes I wonder if we understand the promises of this gospel. Joseph said, As Joseph said, translated beings are part of a Terrestrial sphere. There is a lot to accomplish! We are still babes in our understanding of priesthood and the gospel. Elder McConkie said, "The holy priesthood did more to perfect men in the days of Enoch than at any other time. Known then as the order of Enoch (see D&C 76:57), it was the power by which he and his people were translated. And they were translated because they had faith and exercised the power of the priesthood" (The Doctrine of the Priesthood, Ensign May 1982).

I have considered this same question over the last couple of days, partly due to another thread on this site. Joseph once said, "The elements are eternal. That which has a beginning will surely have an end. Take a ring, it is without beginning or end; cut it for a beginning place, and at the same time you have will an ending place. ...If the soul of man had a beginning it will surely have an end" (see BOAP January 5, 1841). Is our birth not a beginning? If so then our life will have an end, death. If anything which has a beginning must have an end, how then can there be birth in heaven? For if we are born then we must die and we are not eternal. This raises some very interesting questions and I have more thoughts along these lines. This question about blood is also interesting. Joseph Fielding Smith said: If this statement is true it raises more questions because didn't Adam and Eve come here to gain a body like all of us? How is it then that they had a physical body already quickened by the Spirit?

Joseph Fielding Smith added more detail to the subject. He said: Here he states that spirit replaces blood. He also distinguishes between a body of the spirit alone and one quickened by the spirit. I find it an interesting disambiguation.

Yes, Christ's visits may not set a presidence but it leads me to consider the fact that some holy spirits may be given the opportunity to visit. And if they visited then I would guess that some might have observed. I agree.

The pre-mortal Christ visited the Earth many times before being born in Bethlehem. I have also read stories of those who were visited by yet unborn children. So personally I think at least some may.

The Spirit communicates intelligence and understanding. In fact Joseph Smith says, "The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence" (TPJS p. 149, italics added). Spiritual communication is not simply a warm fuzzy. It is knowledge. Sometimes when we gain knowledge we then feel it's results which are joy, peace, love, etc. (Gal 5:22-23). But these feelings are the results or the fruit, not the source. We must not get this confused. So in your situation I would ask, why did you feel that warm feeling? There was likely a true Spirit there but what understanding was being given? If you do not know then ask the Lord in prayer. If he does not tell you then shut it up until such time as he will.

Yes, this new chart clears it all up for me. Intelligences, earth, the spirit world. I think it just needs a couple of more arrows and a few more circles.

Yes, I do think Christ is unrepresented in the Primary version of the Chart. Of course any chart will be incomplete in some way. The gospel is so much about who we are internally. I think the Book of Mormon version is quite a bit different. It is something like this: Adam and the fall (separation from God) -> Probationary state -> Jesus Christ's coming -> Return to the presence of the Lord (redemption and resurrection) -> Judgement -> Happiness or misery Describing it in this way highlights our separation from God and our need to return back to him. Our current state where we are being tested. Christ's vital role in returning us to God. And how choices made here a now effect our eternal destiny. I think we shy away from this method of teaching the plan because we want to highlight what Joseph learned about the pre-earth life and the kingdoms of Glory. While this is good it may have led us away from what is vital.

I agree. I think happiness is an internal matter not an external one. This world offers external pain and suffering but internally the light of Christ is with every man and woman. This light can be strengthened through the gospel of Christ. Christ said his "yolk is easy and his burden light". From a worldly perspective we say, "no way", but we have no reason to doubt him. When no amount of pain, sorrow, fear, or suffering can shake our internal peace and harmony then we will be truly free from all enemies and obtain eternal life. As the Savior himself said, "for behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21). This also should tell us how to progress in our own life. We must find harmony in the gospel. Yes, we will be faced with trials, but we must see through them. We must internally find the way through. At the end of the day the gospel is not a bunch of ramshackle rules and regulations. The commandments are simply rules teaching us how to find peace, teaching us to follow the spirit. If in our worship we are not finding either then we are doing something wrong.

Evil does have power, to say otherwise would be to shut our eyes to truth. However, it has no power to cause us to commit sin. This is because all those who have a body have power over those who do not. Indeed we shouldn't dwell on the devil or evil and your perspective on thinking of good things is correct. But we cannot deny the fact that there are evil spirits. As in the post to start this thread sometimes we cannot ignore it and instead we must face it.

Brigham Young said: If we are striving to do what is right we may receive a greater portion of the spirit of the Lord. However, we must not suppose this is hidden from the adversary. He knows what your daughter has received and will try to use his influence to hinder her good work. I have felt what you have explained as a "blanket of fear". If we continue to feed this fear the adversary grows stronger. I have found three main things that have helped me through such moments: 1. Replace fear with love - Our emotions and feelings are more potent then we understand. They can effect the spiritual realm. The Bible says, "perfect love casteth out fear" (1 John 4:18), and so it is. Pray to the Lord and fill your heart with love and use this love as you follow the next steps. 2. Cast the evil spirits from your home 3. Shield your family and home - Pray for a shield of light and love to protect you, your family members and home (Heleman 5:24-24, 3 Ne 17:23-34). 4. Pray for angels to stand guard - Specifically request that angels of light come to guard you, your family, and home (D&C 84:88). If you do not fear but ask in faith I think you will find almost right away a very noticeable difference. Now, a word of warning. If you do this you may find peace for a night or for a day, but the adversary is persistent. Negative feelings will likely return. Follow the same process again as many times as you need. In fact, I found for a time that each night and sometimes during the day I had to follow this process. Over time the feelings will leave.

I don't believe that Jesus' Father gave him any more advantage to progress then us. To say such, is to lessen what he did and separate him from us.

If I may be given some freedom to conjecture I will give my thoughts. I believe that there are certain signs, certain ordinances which the great God of Heaven has setup which are eternal. If one desires to obtain the power of the priesthood, among other things, he must receive the signs. Moreover, in every estate we must receive these ordinances, these signs. In our first estate as spirit beings we had to receive these same ordinances. Now in our second estate we must again receive them. Michael progressed and received all the ordinances in his first estate. Having received these he was then required to obtain them in his second. At each estate growing in glory and power. And so it continues from one estate to another.

I haven't heard of any changes either. But frankly I would be happier if we stated teaching the plan of salvation more like it is taught in the Book of Mormon or the Temple. Pres. Benson commented on this once. He said:

I agree that the whole justification for giving up of a child because they are on a lower level of righteousness is nonsense. But the question of righteousness before coming to this earth is certainly valid.

From the Gospel Principles manual it teaches: I think there are a couple of important points to note in the above quote.1. Man was reared to maturity prior to coming to this earth. I believe this means that all who came here had progressed to an advanced state. Because we had progressed to such a state we needed to have new challenges and so begin the second estate. 2. We were not all equal. Some were more valiant, some had different talents. I believe this can be seen here on earth with a Bach or an Einstein along with many others. Now, having said all this I believe that there is divine purpose behind pairing of children with their parents. I also think it is extremely presumptuous and prideful of a person to suppose they know all the reasons why they were given a certain child or to think there has been some mistake they need to fix. God does not make mistakes, humans do (even parents).