james12

It seems there is some confusion in you're post. You lowered you're standards when you did not obey the law of chastity. So, getting married civilly is a step to put you back on the right path, not take you from it. Also, a sealing ceremony does not ensure an easier marriage. It is the commitment of a man and a woman coupled with the Lord's blessing which makes for an eternal marriage. Determination to follow the covenant comes before the blessing.

Agreed. I think the word stigma was a poor term to use in my previous post. Perhaps, "expectation" would be better.

There is a definite stigma in the church about not getting married in the Temple and perhaps in part, for good reason. But many mistakenly treat Temple marriage, and other ordinances, as an end and not a means. Sometimes a couple receive the conditional promise in the sealing ordinance and then feel all is done. They then rarely attend the Temple. They feel they have received all the church has to offer. How foolish, how short sighted. Perhaps in your case a civil marriage may turn to your good. It will require humility to accept your current situation and allow others to see it. It can help lead you away from the world and status symbols which have little meaning. Use these two outcomes to your benefit. Take the humility and plead to God that you may be prepared to enter into his covenant. Forget the world and the symbol and see past them both. Then, if you work at it, you will come to understand the change that needs to take place in your lives in order to not just receive the form but the actual blessing through the Holy Spirit of Promise. If you can do that, your extra year waiting will be one of the greatest blessings of your life. So few see past the symbol. They are content with the physical ordinance. Elder McConkie clearly explains that promises given in the sealing ordinance are only conditional. To receive the actual blessings we must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. It can happen in this life. Prepare yourselves for it. These are his words:

God delivers pure intelligence to us via the Holy Ghost. He does not cause anxiety or depression but the message given to us may result in various feelings of inadequacy or anxiety. Often we are directed to do things that are difficult, like repent which always causes fear in the natural man.

The idea that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom comes from D&C 131:1-4. I read a blog post here about this subject. I think the ideas in it deserve serious consideration. Here is a brief summary in my own words. It is possible that typical LDS understanding of this scripture is incorrect. It may be that Joseph's meaning was that in order to obtain the highest degree in heaven a man must enter into the highest order of the priesthood (celestial marriage). Not that there are three sub degrees within the celestial kingdom. In other words, to enter the celestial kingdom at all a man must sealed in celestial marriage. Here is some of the reasoning as to why this may be the case: Nowhere in scripture are these three subdivisions within the celestial kingdom completely defined. All we know is that in order to obtain the highest degree a man must enter into the highest order of the priesthood (celestial marriage or patriarchal priesthood). What about the first degree, what about the second? It is very coincidental that there are three degrees defined within the celestial kingdom and also three general degrees of glory. This comment from Joseph is only recorded by William Clayton. No other record of the discussion exists. Was it recorded accurately? Many of those who recorded sermons of Joseph vary their wording slightly. Can we trust every word of this record? The meaning of the term "celestial" might be misunderstood by us today. Joseph may have meant the term in it's generic form as in heavenly, not the very specific LDS context.

Faith is power, and power is priesthood. When a man or a woman exercise the power of God, through faith, they use priesthood. The highest order of the priesthood requires a man and a woman to use their power together. Men hold authority to govern and administer the kingdom on earth by virtue of priesthood keys.

I haven't read this thread for a few days. I see it has changed into a slightly different discussion. I think this is an important discussion. When the new Handbook II was being distributed to the Stakes there was a World Wide Leadership Training on the book. The concluding remarks were from Elder Packer. Here is part of his message. At that time I thought, we must know what is written and we should follow it. But once we know what is written the spirit may at times guide us to do something different. My fear is that we rely too much on programs and written manuals instead of relying on faith and the workings of the spirit. This is not simply an "either" "or" statement. We must rely on the spirit or we "shall not teach". Moreover, without the spirit we are weak. No manual, or book, including the scriptures, can compensate for the workings of the spirit in our lives. Elder Carmack indicates why, "More to the point, we tap into the Lord's power source, and our actions move in rhythm with His. The Lord compensates for our deficiencies. Vast, unseen reservoirs of dynamic power supply our needs." (GC April 1993) If we follow books we do not tap into the "vast, unseen reservors of dynamic power" we need in order to conduct the work of the Lord. Instead we are left to ourselves.Let me give an example of how this works. A woman in our ward once made multiple loaves of bread to deliver to people she knew. She passed them out to various ward members and other friends. After she had handed them out to all these people there was one left. She considered who to give it to and a thought entered her mind that she should give this last loaf to a neighbor acrross the street who was not a member. She went over and knocked on the door. No one was home so she left it on the door step. It didn't have a note saying it was from her. A few days past until she saw her neighbor. The neighbor told her that her Dad had passed away a few days ago. The neighbor had been praying to know if her father existed somewhere. As she got up from one of these prayers she saw the bread on the front porch. She said her father loved to make bread. She knew it was from him and thanked the Lord for such a sign. The Lord magnifies our efforts when we follow the spirit. A simple loaf of bread becomes a sign from God of his love for his children and the eternal bond between a Father and a Daughter. Without some room to breath none of this would have happened. Perhaps some will laugh and think it was all coincidence but such are the workings of the spirit. Yes, know the visiting teaching message. Yes, follow it. But first follow the the spirit.

Ephesians 4:11-13 answers this question very well: I believe the JST starts verse 13 by saying, "Till we, in the unity of the faith, all come to the knowledge of the Son of God..." Not until we all come in unity to know the Son and reach the stature of Christ will the need for prophets be done away. Until such a time as all reach the stature of the Son "of necessity there [will be] presidents, or presiding officers" (D&C 107:21).

A couple of more interesting statements from the brethren. As we are laid down so will we come forth whether old or young. If we were old when we died we will be old when resurrected. Joseph Fielding Smith elaborates: For those that died when old it appears to me that there will be a transition period until the physical form matches the spirit.Regarding glory and kingdoms we have: Harold B. Lee also has a very interesting statement on how the process will be viewed by those on the earth during the millennium.

I give this as food for thought...

Amazing these are now on the internet. Thanks for posting them.

It looks to me like you are expecting way to much of yourself. I think you will need to cut something out. That may be the non-profit or one of the classes but there is only so much one person can do. College takes dedicated time. Those who don't focus on it usually don't do well.

I agree with some of your points. But consider verse eleven of the same chapter, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Don't we also overcome Satan by the "blood of the Lamb"? Additionally, Heavenly Father is involved in our current war with Satan, I see no reason to think he was also not likewise involved in our first estate.

Elohim might have stopped the war unless there was a purpose in it. Perhaps Michael and the angels who fought with him had to learn how to cast Satan out before it became heaven.

While mortal man cannot understand who the Holy Ghost is our spirit can. I believe it is not generally revealed because so many would reject the truth. But that is not to say we shouldn't seek it. We must understand each member of the Godhead, including the Holy Ghost, or we do not understand ourselves. The spirit will reveal the truth of the matter to those who diligently seek to know.

Priesthood is power and no man or woman can hope to attain a kingdom without it. For without power we could not put the enemies of righteousness under our feet. Without power they would have dominon over us and we would surely fall short of our goal. The greatest power, or highest priesthood, can only be achieved when a man and a woman work together in such a capacity. I agree that carnal commandments and ordinances are no assurity of eternal reward. Sooner or later they must be received, but they are only promises to one who has not obtained the Spirit. I think we would do much better to think of levels of glory or light instead of moving to one of three worlds. I believe this is much closer to the truth. We must obtain light during our sojourn here on the earth. The Spirit, light or glory we receive will determine to what extent our natural bodies are quickened. The more light we receive the greater glory we obtain.

Variations exist in all kingdoms. There are not simply three degrees or nine degrees. Jesus says there are many mansions and Paul says, "for one stars differs from another star in glory". And so each person will be glorified according to the light he would receive. That being said, there are generally three grand devisions. One the glory of the Father, one of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. Outward ordinances are no assurance of the kingdom received, for those in the Telestial kingdom will say, "they are some of one and some of another - some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses..." (D&C 76:100). Physical ordinances mark the pathway but it is the Spirit which sanctifies. We must receive the Spirit. Whatever portion we will receive determines the kingdom/glory we obtain (D&C 88:28-31). One who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise obtains the Celestial kingdom. Lastly, each kingdom has a priesthood. In order to obtain the highest kingdom one must enter into the highest order of the priesthood. In ancient days it was called the Patriarchal Order or Order of the Son of God. Today it is celestial marriage. Again, it is more than the physical ordinance. Instead, "We must so live as to receive the guarantees to which we have thus been called and the assurances that appertain to our election, and which are given on a conditional basis only in celestial marriage. ...We must press forward in righteousness until our calling and election is made sure; and this high achievement grows out of and is the crowning reword of celestial marriage" (Bruce R McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:352-353)

It seems you Grandfather has something to tell you. He must have been a righteous man if he can pierce the veil from the other side. If it happens again I would avoid fear and simply ask what he wants. You may find yourself richly blessed.

I agree with you that an introvert may not be prompted to get up and share. Nephi promised, “for the Lord giveth no commandment unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way to accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” If a person is currently unable to bear testimony then the Spirit does not require it of them. Inspiration comes line upon line according to our capacity. So, if the person is unable to go up, and the Spirit will not ask it of them, why then would a request from the bishopric help the situation? Why are we afraid of letting the Spirit direct in this simple case?

Perhaps your right but even in that case it is a sad situation. What you are saying is that the introvert will ignore the promptings of the Spirit but will head a push from the Bishop. Why would such a person ingnore the Spirit but listen to the Bishop or one of his councilors?

As I recall it was advice from Brigham Young to leaders of youth. I have seen testimony meetings with youth where only one person bore a testimony and all the others sat for about 1/2 an hour. In cases like these, unfortunately a leader might need to march down the list and ask the youth to get up. However, I see a significant difference between one who stands because he is prompted of the Spirit and one who stands because a leader told him he needs to get up. One is directly following the Lord and the other is directly following a man or woman.

I'm not sure I worded my last statement perfectly. My point is that the spirit prompts people to get up. There is little reason for another person to get in the way, particularly if there is just some silence. I am not talking about the length of the testimony nor particularly about it's content, simply the "why" of people get up. Isn't a testimony about what the Spirit has taught us? Shouldn't it then be the reason we stand? Don't you see that we loose something when we cut in the middle of that revelatory process? Must we be so regimented that the Spirit has no room to breath? I for one fear too much structure not too little.

We should not need to have anyone involved between us and the Spirit when bearing a testimony. If members cannot simply bear their testimony when promted then we are very unsure foundation. There needs not be a sterward between us and the Lord in this matter.

If the spirit doesn't prompt people to get up, should a person take it upon themselves?

Have you reached bottom yet? Do you realize that all your efforts have failed and that they will continue to do so if you try and use your natural self to free you from the natural man? That no force of will, no "new program" is going to help? If you have realized this then you have taken the first important step. For you are correct, their is simply nothing you can do. Now take the next step, forget yourself and turn to God. Stop focusing on your problem and humble yourself before him as you never have before. Make the commitment to follow him with all your heart. Then plead for his support. Not once, not twice, but over and over and over again. I promise that if you do so his strength will lift you. It will not be you, for you have tried and failed. It will be Him. But this time, if you are sincere in your effort, you will now succeed because he will be with you. What's more you will have learned how to overcome many obsticles in your life.