james12

Agreed. I have considered it but have come to no conclusion on the matter.

Our Heavenly Father and his son Jesus Christ are physical beings. They can only be in one place at one time. The Holy Ghost is a being of spirit. He likewise can only be in one place at one time. The power or influence they posses and wield is often called the Spirit (ie. not Holy Ghost. There is great confusion here. The Holy Ghost wields this power/substance but he is not the power itself). This Spirit is called by many names. For example it is explained in these terms, "the light of truth; which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. ...And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings; which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space - the light which is in all things which giveth life to all things" (D&C 88:6-7,11-12). Our spirit body comes from God and is under the special influence of God. This influence begins as the Light of Christ. As we tune ourselves to this Spirit we are able to act in righteousness and gain more power/light/glory. To have a fullness of this substance is to have all glory, power, and dominion. Through Spirit, God conducts his work and upholds all his creations. Through Spirit he is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. In as much as man gains this Spirit he is enlightened and posses the same glory, attributes, and power of God. Now there is truth for those who will receive it.

I believe the Holy Ghost is to a large extent a mystery but is critically important segment of our doctrine. Only those who are open to truth will begin to understand. Maybe I'll take up one item which has become more clear to me in the last few weeks. It is the difference between the Spirit (or Holy Spirit or power of the Holy Ghost) and the Holy Ghost. Listen to these words from Mormon Doctrine under the section "Spirit of the Lord". This power is communicated to us via the Holy Ghost.

I would suggest the book, LDS Family Services Addiction Recovery Program: A Guide to Addiction Recovery and Healing I think it starts out on the right path explaining how a person turns to God and how to stay focused on Him. Don't leave meditation out of the picture either, calm and ponderous thought brings one closer to God. In general we do not pay enough attention to it.

Note the order of the revelations: 1831, July 20: Independence Missouri is the place for the temple and city of Zion (see D&C 57) 1832, September 22, 23: Section 84 received 1833, May 6: Commanded to build the Kirtland temple (see D&C 94) The revelation to build the Kirtland temple was received after section 84 so it is not likely hat verses four and five refer to the Kirtland temple. Additional details in verses 2, 3, and 32 give context and they do not point to Kirtland. Note verse 32 says, "which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed". The consecrated spot was Independence Missouri (see D&C 58:57).

Amen!While allowances will be made in the current state there will come a time when all must repent in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Moreover, while in this life single people are promised all the blessings reserved for the righteous at some point before the resurrection they must be married and sealed. There are no exceptions. Jesus made this clear when asked about the woman who married seven different brothers as each died in successive fashion. He said, "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." In other words, no marriages are initiated in the resurrected state. All will be decided before the resurrection.

I think the word generation can be confusing. I take it to mean a group of people belonging to a specific category at a given time. Thus I could say, "The generation of silent film stars" or, "The generation of castles and knights". Jesus uses the term in a similar fashion. He speaks of the abomination of desolation, the moon turning to blood and the sun being darkened then he says, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled?" I do not believe he means the current individuals then on the earth for we are still waiting for some these things to happen. The next question becomes what is the generation referred to in verse four and five? Or in other words, what sets us apart as a unique group of individuals such that the temple will be built only at the end of our generation? I believe section 84 is largely an answer to that question. For after verse five we are given to understand priesthood and how to see the face of God. We are told about the acceptable offering which will be made and about the oath and covenant. We learn that the world is in darkness because they don't come unto him and that even the church is under condemnation for not remembering the BofM and to follow it. Missionary work, plagues, etc. until the work is completed. Until, "all shall know [him], who remain, even from the least unto the greatest" (v 98). Then will the current generation pass away and all things will become new. Zion will be clothed in beauty and the existing state will end. I wish it would come in my day and that this long generation of wickedness and condemnation would be over. We all play a part in bringing it to pass. I'll do my best with my small portion.

All those who obtain the highest order of the Melchizedek priesthood obtain the oath and covenant of our Father, first conditionally, and then if they remain faithful, by His very voice, that they are sealed up unto eternal life (see D&C 131:5). This oath and covenant received through priesthood is immutable. Hebrews 6:16-20 talks to this very point. God could swear by nothing greater, so he made a covenant and swore in His own name that it would be fulfilled. Let us then receive the promise for ourselves and grab hold with all confidence that we will receive.

Traveler, No comment?

How did those just after Christ connect everything to Christ? I'm intrigued with what Moroni explains in Moroni 6 about how the church was conducted. It seems to me there are subtle but distinct differences between then and now. I think Moroni rightly discusses more than just their meetings. It starts at baptism. They brought forth fruits, they evidenced a broken heart and contrite spirit, the witnessed to the church that they had repented, they were determined to serve Christ. I find it interesting that they witnessed before the church. While we conduct an interview I'm not convinced this is what Moroni is talking about. Did these people come before the body of the church and witness their repentance? Also, they had to be determined to follow Christ to the end. I'm also not sure we emphasize this point before baptism. What if we did? After the above criteria were met they were baptized and after they were wrought upon and cleansed by the Holy Ghost they then were numbered and nurtured to keep them watchful unto prayer and relying alone upon Christ. Note: after they were wrought upon by the Holy Ghost. What if they were not wrought upon by the Holy Ghost? Were they numbered among the people of Christ? I have other thoughts on this scripture but I'm out of time. What do you think? Was it different in the time just after Christ?

I think Alma 5:37 also has something to add. It says, "O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray, as sheep having not shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice! These words are not to all people. They are specifically to those who profess to have known the ways of the Lord yet have gone astray, having no Shepherd. How is it that they have wandered? They do not hearken unto the voice of the shepherd who calls them. Or in other words, they have not listened to the Spirit. They may yet profess to follow but their ways are darkness before the Lord. They may even keep the letter of the law but they have lost the spirit. The answer then is clear, turn back to God, be born again, and hear the voice of the good shephered. Then all your works will be works of righteousness and your name will no more be blotted out.

Because we, like Adam, chose to fall. Indeed, "all are fallen and are lost". The effect of the fall was that we were separated from the presence of God. This separation from God causes both spiritual and physical death. When we once again return to his presence we receive both spiritual and physical life. As Joseph said, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." I'm not sure why we as LDS still persist in trying to fit false religion into such a plain statement. We insist on believing that Adam caused us to come to this Telestial world full of death, disease, and heartache and yet at the same time say that we are not punished for Adam's transgression. Such "reasoning" makes no sense.

I have spent some time studying and considering the doctrine. I think what I have said just touches the surface. Thanks for you comments. Good luck in finding truth.

Your question is a good one. It is a question all members should ask themselves, and they should not be satisfied with trite, clearly incomplete answers. Mark these words as given to Elder Packer in his patriarchal blessing, "[The body] is the instrument of your mind and the foundation of your character." Our body is a tool or instrument which amplifies our spirit. It expands the breadth and depth of our emotions. Through our mortal body we more deeply experience love, kindness, happiness, but also sorrow, pain, and disappointment. Our bodies enhance our relationships with others and expand our ability to obey. Our spirits our pure but have difficulty controlling these new and expanded emotions. At the same time, our bodies our subject to the power of the adversary. Through our mortal tabernacle evil is suggested to us. The thoughts are constant. They whisper discouragement, distraction, and giving into the lusts of the flesh. Things like, "That should make you mad", "you're too tired", "you can find such pleasure in immorality". In such cases Brigham Young said, "If the spirit yields to the body, the devil then has power to overcome the body and the spirit of that man, and he loses both." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p 70) This is the test. We did not come here to: number one, be tested, and number two, gain a body. They are one and the same. Our test is to gain our body and present pure before God. For everyday practical purposes the matter can be summarized in one question. "Will my body rule over my spirit, or will my spirit rule over my body? ...That, brothers and sisters, is the test." (Elder Bednar, Ye are the Temple of God, Sep 2001, Rick's College)

I acknowledge the original post may be a person critical of the church but aren't the concerns valid either way? Certainly there are others with these same concerns. Why not discuss how active members reconcile these issues?

First, God will never reject a person for finding and believing truth. Oh we may block our own progress because we do not accept or understand what we find, but truth is life. We must not fear truth. Second, some of what you have posted is true but the interpretation of events is questionable. For instance, Joseph did practice polygamy but the next question you should ask is why. Is it as Joseph and others have stated, because God commanded it? Or is it because he was sex crazed, as many anti-Mormon sites would have you believe? Don't jump to conclusions and don't accept anti-Mormon rhetoric. Use the Spirit and find the truth. And if you can't find out exactly why don't assume the worst. Third, understand and accept the difference between the church and the gospel. The church teaches doctrine, administers ordinances, and establishes policies and procedures to help us grow in truth. The gospel is the plan and way we enter into and receive salvation. I am greatful for both, but make your life gospel centered. By so doing no church practice or change in policy will have any effect on your individual salvation because your faith will be centered on Christ, the rock of salvation.

The word "worship" is clearly not well defined enough when talking about the difference between the roles the Father and the Son take in our lives and how we approach them. It may be a little more clear if I said we worship the Father in the name of the Son or we aproach the Father through the Son. But even this leaves ambiquity. I think the blessing on the sacrament gives the finest definition. Take the blessing on the bread:"O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ" - We ask God in Christ's name. "to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it" - God is to bless and sanctify the bread in the name of his Son. "That they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son" - Having it thus blessed by the Father, we eat in remembrance of the Son. "and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father," - By so partaking of the bread we witness to the Father. "that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son" - We witness to the Father that we will take upon us Christ's name. Among other things this means that we see ourselves as Christ's. "always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them" - We witness to the Father that we will remember Christ and keep his commandments. "that they may always have his Spirit to be with them" - Christ's spirit to be with us. So to seperate what we do out between the Father and the Son. Father - We petition him. We witness to him. He sanctifies us. Son - The means through which we approach the Father. We commit to remember his body and blood, take upon us his name, remember him, and keep the commandments he has given us. We take upon ourselves his Spirit.

This was a great statement. I have considered it. Why do you think Elder Ballard called the plan priesthood endowed?

Hi Traveler,Perhaps a point of clarification. We worship the Father not the Son. We reverence the Son and stand in awe of his great atonement. But it is the Father's plan, not the Son's. While we seek to know the Son we must ultimately come to the Father.

Here is another thought. Into - In verse 46 we see that the Spirit gives light to everyone that comes into the world. Through - It then carries them through the world and out the other side if they hearken to the voice of the Spirit. Unto - Until they come unto God the Father. Thus going into the world, through it, and finally unto God. When they find God they are no more in the world but out of it. While they may yet reside on this physical Earth they are not under the bondage of sin but have found the Light. Anyone who has not found Him is yet under sin and has not come unto Him. Addition: Prehaps that last sentence could be said this way. Anyone who is still under the weight of sin has not yet found Him. For it is almost inconcievable that once having received him that such a person would continue in sin. (see John 3:6-9)

Shorthand for calling and election made sure.

Thanks Finrock. In a moment of soberness I once pondered this question of happiness. I came to conclude then, and feel the same today, that we barely understand what happiness is. Right now the slightest thing will make us angry, sad, hurt, or otherwise discouraged. On the flip side, we may be happy for a moment but it doesn't last. We do not yet know what true joy means. Happiness in the fullest sense understands sorrow, it understands pain, it comprehends suffering. But on the other hand, and perhaps because of such deep understanding, it knows joy and a profound love. Christ did not come to provide a happiness which would last a short time but one that was everlasting. Christ came that we might have life, and that we might have it more abundantly (Matt 10:10).

But I could see some people taking it that way.

Hi Finrock, Thanks for the response. Sorry if my reply came off a little harsh, I don't mean to attack your post. Maybe you could fill me in on the purpose for wanting to know if happiness is a commandment? From my point of view, if we continue to ask for commandments the Lord will eventually oblige as he did with the Law of Moses. Commandments point the way to Christ and for this reason they are useful and necessary. But if we already know the way why do we want the commandment? Commandments are not amenable to circumstances. They tend to lead some people to honor the letter and not the spirit. If we can keep the spirit without the letter are we not better off?

Must we be commanded in every aspect of our lives? Must we tie the law around even this? Isn't it obvious that the Lord wants us to be happy? If someone is so far from the Spirit that they don't think the great God of Heaven wants them to be happy then I say no amount of commandment will ever accomplish the purpose.