james12

Note carefully the words. The "mind" or "intelligence" which man posses is eternal. Not the spirit in it's entirety nor the body, but the mind. Now before coming here we gained a spirit body. With it, the light of Christ which can never be taken from us, though it can be dimmed. Intelligence housed in a glorified spirit obtains light, knowledge, and joy. Now take our spirit and house it in a glorified body and we will obtain a fullness of joy. There is not one mind that is intelligence, another mind that is spirit, and yet another mind of the body. There is only one and it is co-equal with God. By it we live and move and have our being. Without it we are nothing. The body in and of itself is not evil, instead it is a marvelous tool which magnifies our spirit and deepens and expands our feelings and emotions. God placed our spirit in our body. However, while here on earth the hosts of Satan have also been given special influence over the body. Through the body they influence our thoughts. They whisper thoughts to us which distort the use of the body to evil ends. In time long since past we used our mind and tuned our spirit to God. If we yield to the Lord's spirit which is in us we will overcome the hosts of Satan who also desire to posses our body. If we yield to the evil one we will lose control of our body and darken our spirit.

Stop protecting him. He is making "adult" choices he now needs to face adult consequences. Also, don't excuse yourself based on what others may do. They will do what they will do, but you do the right thing. Tell the parents of the girl, they need to be informed. Give your son consequences as others have stated. It is now beyond telling him not to bring girls to his room. I don't know the whole situation, but he could get a girl pregnant. If he faces consequences with the law he faces consequences with the law. He has clearly been protected for far too long.

I had a terrible first experience at the temple. My dad was not worthy to enter, I was shocked by the initiatory, and I, a member my entire life, left almost questioning the veracity of the church! But, I have been back and back and back again. It has become a for me a place of revelation, peace and joy, as I never thought it would. David O. McKay also did not have a good first experience. He once said, Yet the temple changed him and I decided one day it could change me. In some ways President McKay has been a guide for me. I have for many years gone to the temple trusting these profound words which he said at a Stake Presidents meeting centered around the building of the Los Angeles temple. Hang on to those words. It is the "step-by-step ascent into the Eternal Presence". I can imagine nothing more valuable. Now go, find out the way. Work on separating the symbol from the symbolized. Find out where you are at on the path. And realize that your worthiness unlocks the power of the endowment.

It sounds like it's time to accept the apology. The daughter has now reached out to you and taken the big step of saying she is sorry. It does not excuse her actions but it does mean she wants to patch things up and I see that as a good sign. Take the olive branch. If you are serious about your girl friend you are going to have to make this work. You inserted yourself into the argument on one end now you have to be part of the solution on the other. Who knows maybe things will improve now that she knows you are not a push over.

What was the Lord's blessing to you? If it is not what your husband said (and I concede that it may not be) then what was it? Isn't this the starting point for faith? If we do not understand the blessing we have been given how do we exercise faith in the same? If we do not know what the Lord has given us, then there is doubt, and where there is doubt, there faith is not. Let me give an example from my own life. It was a time I learned about pure and simple faith and every time I think of it I am again humbled... My four year old daughter broke her leg falling out of a tree. We went to the instacare and they put her in a temporary splint. The next day she said she wanted a blessing and so I prayed to the Lord to know what to say. At the end of sincere prayer I felt her faith was strong and that I would bless her to be healed. Before the blessing I explained to her about the priesthood and that as Jesus healed those when he was on the earth a portion of his power could be given to worthy priesthood holders. Well, I blessed her that she might be healed and walk. Right after the blessing she said, "Dad, take off my splint so I can get going!" I didn't know what to say. Take off her cast?! My wife and I did not do it. We explained to her that that was not how it worked. Right after, I felt I was wrong in not trusting the blessing. I realized that I was the one lacking faith. That somehow I had put up barriers to the blessing the Lord would give my child. I hoped then, and at time since, that I could have the faith my child had at four.

Jesus was surely without sin, but that in and of itself, misses the point of his perfection. It simply directs us to what he was not. But who was he and what did he become? For he surely had to grow while here in his mortal tabernacle. Note these words regarding his pain in Gethsemane, “And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly” (Luke 22:44) What? Because he was suffering he prayed more earnestly? How is it possible that he wasn’t already completely in earnest? Wasn’t he was perfect? This is where we must disabuse ourselves of our false constructs surrounding the word and idea of his perfection. I think it can easily creates barriers between ourselves and him. It sanitizes him. Why don’t we instead see his personality? This to me is more valuable. It is in the details where we see his finesse, the completeness, the beauty, of who he is. At the pool of Bethsaida he seeks out the man who has been trying for years to be healed. He does not heal them all. Instead he heals this one man who cannot possibly reach the pool in time. Do we see the beauty of what he has done? When he finds out about John’s beheading he wants to be alone but the crowed needs him. He ignores his own sorrow and instead he spends time with the multitude. Only in the late hours and early morning does he find time to grieve. He is invited into a Pharisees home and skips washing his hands. He cares about the Pharisee and seeks to break the false notions of religion the man is under. He does not care about propriety. How utterly free is this man! But if we only focus on his lack of sin, we may not see that he was indeed human. And it is precisely because of his humanity that he is so exquisite.

I hesitate to post this because of the secred nature of the topic but, do you think then that one needs to not only be visited by the Second Comforter but recieve his fullness? In other words must we come into the presence of God the Father and behold his glory in order to obtain the highest degree in the Celestial kingdom? Joseph says, "and we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the father, and received of his fulness" (D&C 76:20).

I agree. There is a lot I still need to attain and I must say I feel some urgency about the matter.

No doubt most active members believe some people receive their calling and election made sure. But here is my question. Must any person who wishes to obtain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom receive their calling and election made sure before the final resurrection? In other words, must I receive my calling and election in this life or the spirit world if I want to be exalted?

Yes, no doubt God treats each of us as individuals and tailors learning experiences to meet our needs. And no doubt at the end of our lives we could cobble all these learning experiences together and could come up with some sort of path we followed. But such thinking is not very useful as a tool to direct us in the future. Yes, probably the biggest concern I have with the whole issue is the idea of this being a "plan". A plan tells us what to do next but it also charts a path far into the future. It gives us a vision and direction until we have gained eternal life. I would love to see someones individualized plan which will take them all the way into God's presence.

No doubt on some level God can foresee what we will do. If we consider the infinite concern and involvement God has in our life, it may help us see how he cares for us. I would not call this a plan, but in any case this is about as far as I would take it. Of course God cares for you, and yes he will direct your path, but don't use this idea of an individualized plan as any sort of guide. Can you imagine God telling me the path in advance... James, date this girl, now dump her. Now go to school here. Now transfer to a different school. Now read this scripture and give this talk. Now finish your degree. Now go to the singles ward here. Now choose this career path. Now you wont find a job for a while so work here instead. Etc. etc..... Can anyone plot a course based on such a circuitous path? Does this help me reach my goal? Such thinking can be taken to extreeme. I remember a person claiming that the sins they had committed were part of their "plan". That God expected them to commit the sin. They appeared, from my perspective, to be excusing themselves because of this. A plan implies a clear direction and course. God is not the author of confusion and does not vary from that which he has said. "Behold the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel" (2 Ne 9:41) This is the plan I am following. Because it is so straight and narrow I know when I have stepped of the path and I know what it takes to get back on it. For those of you who disagree don't worry, on my way up the straight and narrow I will wave and smile at you individualized path followers lost in the mists of darkness.

Here are a couple of thoughts... The Father or the Son There may be some indications that indeed God the father did appear unto Adam in this valley. For the valley was named Adam-ondi-Ahman which translated means “"the valley of God where Adam dwelt" and while there may be confusion when we say “God” or “Lord” I think there is no confusion with the term “Ahman” for God the Father is always “Ahman” and Christ always calls himself “Son Ahman” (D&C 78:20, 95:17). This would indeed be a very special place if the Father were there even for a short time. However, I’m not sure that I would extend such a visit to Adam’s posterity. Temple It may be that Adam-ondi-Ahman was and will be a great outdoor temple in some fashion like the Parowan Gap was to the Indians (see The Parowan Gap, Nature’s Perfect Observatory by V. garth Norman). Joseph indicated that on a hill at Adam-ondi-Ahman the remains of an old Nephite altar or tower stood (subsequently named Tower Hill). I wonder what the purpose of this altar or tower was? Here Adam and Eve were cast after the fall. Here Adam built an altar and offered sacrifices unto the Lord. Here an angel of the Lord appeared to Adam and explained the purposes of the fall and the sacrifice of the Only Begotten. Here the Lord appeared to Adam. And here Brigham Young dedicated a spot for a temple which was never built. Presence of the Lord At Adam-ondi-Ahman, Adam and his posterity were brought into the presence of the Lord. Joseph says, "I saw Adam in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He called together his children and blessed them with a patriarchal blessing. The Lord appeared in their midst, and he (Adam) blessed them all, and foretold what should befall them to the latest generation. This is why Adam blessed his posterity; he wanted to bring them into the presence of God. They looked for a city, etc., [‘whose builder and maker is God.’—Heb. 11:10].” (DHC 3:388, 389.) Would not Adam’s posterity bless Adam and praise him for what he had done for them? For here they found God. Priesthood How were they brought into the Lord’s presence? President Benson says, Priesthood is received when men and women place themselves in their rightful order in relation to God. When enough people have entered the Holy Order, Adam, in the valley which carries his name, will then pass the keys of the kingdom back to Christ.

LiterateParakeet, I have to say that Till We Have Faces is my favorite C.S. Lewis but I have found few people that have read it. It definitely has a different tone then many of his other books and the symbolism is more subtle.

Angel, I wonder if I can share a message without sounding irreligious or irreverent. For I believe I am not. But there is a different way to see the gospel. It has less to do with rules and perhaps unrealized promises. Maybe it will help. If it does not then feel free to forget it. Sometimes the weight of others expectations or the weight of our own can pull us down. It seems to come from every angle that we must do better, that we must be more. It caries with it a promise of happiness of peace but it always seems to be simply that, a promise. The actual realization of the blessing is so far in the future that it is almost unobtainable. But the more I read the more I am convinced there is more to it. One translation of the Bible puts Jesus' words in this form, "Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” (John 11:28-30, The Message) Have you ever found a peace which just surrounds you? Have you ever had that moment where it seemed all your difficulties were far away? This could be in the temple or in nature. These sometimes only last for a moment, but I say, seek to find that again. See the harmony underlying the gospel, and what the spirit asks you to do. Don't push. Instead try and feel what he means you to feel in the moment. It is not so much about doing but about finding a state of being and resting in that state. While at work or at home try and find the peace, the center point. It is not easy sometimes, but it will happen more as you seek it. It is in these moments that we find Him. I think moments such as these are the core of religion. When we find it, religion ceases to become such a burden. It is a sort of freedom. This, I submit, is how Jesus lived his life.

Not all experiences of the spirit continue in such a course. I have on a number of occasions thought I should take one course of action and then latter had a clear indication that my first inclination was wrong. Later evidence has shown me that my first thoughts were indeed wrong. We need to use all the gifts given to us by the Lord to navigate this life. This includes intellect and intelligence but it also includes promptings of the Holy Ghost. I would not throw any one of those out the window. However, revelation is sometimes very clear.

It is possible and it does happen. However, once I receive a prompting and follow the Spirit additional witness follows. This course of faith, action, witness continues to build over time. Line upon line, drop by drop. Taken as a whole the evidence of the Spirit is overwhelming. So for something like the Book of Mormon I have felt the witness so many times in so many circumstances and situations that I know it is true.

I have heard the same. However, the Holy Ghost manifests truth, so either the Book of Mormon is true as the Lord stated, or it is not. The Spirit will not witness both. Now, in such cases I have no idea what happened to the other person. Men are not consistent. It may be that he misunderstood the prompting, or he may not have prayed or read the book, I don't know. But in any case I don't need to know about what happened to him. I know what I have been given and I will not doubt because a man speaks otherwise. If I did this I would soon be lost because I trusted man instead of God.

Well at least your consistent. But it is my witness the Holy Ghost can manifest truth to us so that we are certain in our mind. It is a very personal journey of faith, personal action, and witness. The world will never recognize it.

This is interesting. What keeps you a member of this church if you don't believe in the Holy Ghost and personal revelation?

As I said earlier, any serious member of this church must learn to hear the promptings of the Holy Ghost. It is the means we have been given to distinguish truth from error. It is not mearly some feel good philosophy. At first it may be hard to distinguish our feelings from the Holy Ghost but they are different. As one listens and follows, the witness of the Holy Ghost becomes more sure. This is part of what makes this discussion difficult. If we cannot distinguish then we follow more blindly.

I don't mean to say we should not follow our leaders. Indeed we should follow them. But we must not follow blindly. Brigham Young gives the reason for his statement a little further on in the discourse. He says: In a similar vein Joseph Smith said: I believe we are duty bound to find out if a teaching is right or wrong. We should not take every word from a priesthood leader as indisputable. But we should find out the will of the Lord on the matter. This is simply common sense. Now, I think this principle has become more confused over the years. There are some statements alluding to the fact that we are duty bound to follow the brethren when they speak. That when the prophet speaks "the thinking has been done". I suppose it is up to each person to determine where the truth lies in this matter.

Below are two statements, both by Brigham Young. In the first he says members should not settle into such blind security that they place their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders. In the next quote has says that he has never given counsel that is wrong. Which should we do, follow our leaders without question by trusting every word they speak or find out for ourselves? If we have the Holy Ghost and if both statements are not true then I would ask which one is? Now, I think the course of action to be taken is inescapable. We must take the Holy Spirit as our guide. This does not mean we must pray about every word which comes from the brethren. Most of the time I feel a witness of the spirit as they are speaking the words. I do not need to question it for I know it is true. But if there is occasion where we may question then I believe we must take it as our duty to pray to the Lord and get a witness for ourselves as to how we are to proceed. Is this not what J. Ruben Clark explains and what was reiterated two conferences ago by Elder Christopherson? Now if the president of the church past or present happens to speak words not inspired of the spirit, so what? He is still president of the church and he still holds the prophetic mantel. Brigham Young is a perfect example. He has at times spoken such profound truths that I know what he says is the word of the Lord. The first presidency and the twelve are men of God. I am thankful for them and the testimonies we receive from them. They help lead me to do right.

I am coming to understand an important point related to this topic. In short, it is that man cannot put any other man between himself and God. That it is our privilege and duty to have such a relationship with the Lord that we may approach him in prayer and receive an answer through the Holy Ghost. That we must know the truth for ourselves and if we do not, we must work until we can know by personal revelation from God. Every true follower has gained a testimony through the Spirit. Every serious investigator must pray to know the Book of Mormon is true. It does not matter if I say it is true or a prophet says so. It is personal revelation to that man or woman that convinces and leads a person forward. It seems that sometimes we loose sight of how we found the truth. For various reasons we start depending on man. But we must continue in the Spirit until we know the truth of all things for ourselves and need not depend on another. Moreover, promises made to others are not promises made to us. We must obtain for ourselves the promises of the Lord. Joseph said, “These promises, when obtained, if ever by us, will not be because Peter, John, and the other Apostles … walked in the fear of God and had power and faith to prevail and obtain them; but it will be because we, ourselves, have faith and approach God in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, even as they did; and when these promises are obtained, they will be promises directly to us, or they will do us no good. (History of the Church Vol 2 p. 19-22) Therefore, it is our privilege and duty to obtain the same blessings as any prophet has in the past and to know as we are known (See also Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 12–13)

Truther, Your wife and daughter are members of the LDS church. They share beliefs and practices which you do not. A member's life revolves around the faith they carry. They view almost everything in the light of this gospel. Thus when you say a priesthood blessing with some "magic oil" is not helpful you show how different your beliefs are from theirs. Because home teachers can understand the role of faith in your wife's and daughter's life I believe they can help in ways you currently cannot. Now, you may think the distinction I have made is foolish but I think you will agree with me that it does exist. Knowing this, I would then ask, what would you like to see happen?

Speaking of the spirit world Brigham Young said, "You will there see that those spirits we are speaking of are active; they sleep not. And you will learn that they are striving with all their might—laboring and toiling diligently as any individual would to accomplish an act in this world." (Discourses of Brigham Young, 380)