tesuji

I just sent this as a private message to Eowyn. I will copy it here publicly too - maybe it will explain myself a little better to you all: To Eowyn: I apologize for not answering your question in detail. I posted against my better judgement, but I get upset. Politics is not worth arguing with most people. It feels like a big pointless waste of time, and everyone is just mad at each other afterward. I will try to give you more details about what I mean sometime soon. I don't agree with Hillary on everything, but especially in this election you don't have to love her - Trump is so horrible, in my opinion.

OK, as some of you may know, I don't like arguing politics and I think it's almost always pointless. I would prefer not to see political threads on this site. But even if a dog just wants to take a nap, if you poke it enough it will probably respond - that's how it feels. In this election, in my opinion, you don't even have to love Hillary. Trump is so unsuited to be president and says so many ignorant and offensive things that clearly it should be anyone but Trump. He is so far out off the map, as far as what a candidate should be. To someone who disagrees with me, I can only say please follow the news better, and don't get only one perspective. Go to the Washington Post site on any given day, if you want to see what I'm talking about, as far as Trump. There are too many points, as far as areas I agree with Hillary on. I don't agree with everything - I'm completely against gay marriage, for example. Check out all her points, and see how you think they align with the gospel. I mean the gospel, not Mormon conservative culture. https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ I'm not a Democrat, but I agree with them on many points, Please read the following, including page 2, to get my general feeling about that party and the gospel. http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Why-Im-a-Mormon-Democrat I apologize if I'm seeming to be evasive. I really don't want to argue about this. I stated my opinion. I know many Mormons disagree with me. I'm sure I haven't answered to your satisfaction. [edited, forgot the second link]

Why does it have to be pandering, when she explains to Mormons in terms that Mormons understand, why she will be a better president than Trump? Apparently, she was asked by they paper even, to give this statement. Personally, as a Mormon even, it's not even close. Hillary will be a better president and shares my values, much more than Trump does. Way more than Trump does.

Certainly. The Mormon answer to this is ask God which religion or philosophy is correct. If God answers, then you know two things right away, 1) God does exist and 2) which path is correct. This is how our church started - a young boy going into a forest and asking God. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng Mormons do not believe that God gives contradictory answers to people. We believe that other religions and philosophies have good in them, and people are responding to that goodness. I don't know what God tells other people. I can well imagine that he he might tell someone to be a devout Muslim, Buddhist, or secular human rights worker - those are steps on the path to living his full gospel. Mormons assert that their church contains his full gospel, as taught by Jesus Christ, and God will confirm this if you seek the answer. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3-5?lang=eng

EricE, You are trying to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, specifcially here the doctrines of Mormons - through reason alone. The believing Mormons on this site are here because they have felt the witness of the Holy Spirit that this church is the church of God, re-established in modern times. This witness is a revelation from God. Revelation and human reason are two different ways to arrive at truth. In our religion, we say that revelation is foremost. Reason, scientific enquiry are great, but are secondary. The first principle of our religion is faith in God. In other words, trusting in God. Do we trust in him blindly? No, we have the Holy Spirit telling us these things are true. We have past experience with God - when we obeyed and followed him, he blessed us. Is God understandable to us? Not fully. Can we learn things about him, and understand him partly. Yes, but maybe in the way an infant understands their parents. We believe in the future we will learn and grow to understand him more fully. But the primary way to do this is by obeying him - by analogy, by going to his class and doing his homework; by letting him teach us. It seems like you are insisting on understanding God fully, right now. Mormons would say this is like an infant trying to understand where mom or dad go every morning to do their job, and insisting it's parents explain what they do at work. Will in the infant understand anything they say? Why did God allow women and children to be burned? I don't know the full answer. People here have given you some ideas. You could also ask why does God let any of us die? Can't we just be immortal? And can't we go through life without any pain? If you want to understand how Mormons think of your question, I suggest the following talk: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/but-if-not

EricE, You are trying to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ - specifically here the doctrines of Mormons - through reason alone. The believing Mormons on this site are here because they have felt the witness of the Holy Spirit that this church is the church of God, re-established in modern times. This witness is a revelation from God. Revelation and human reason are two different ways to arrive at truth. In our religion, we say that revelation is foremost. Reason, scientific inquiry are great, but are secondary. The first principle of our religion is faith in God. In other words, trusting in God. Do we trust in him blindly? No, we have the Holy Spirit telling us these things are true. We have past experience with God - when we obeyed and followed him, he blessed us. Is God understandable to us? Not fully. Can we learn things about him, and understand him partly. Yes, but maybe in the way an infant understands its parents. We believe in the future we will learn and grow to understand him more fully. But the primary way to do this is by obeying him - by analogy, by going to his class and doing his homework; by letting him teach us. It seems like you are insisting on understanding God fully, right now. Mormons would say this is like an infant trying to understand where mom or dad go every morning to do their job, and insisting its parents explain what they do at work. Will the infant understand anything they say? Why did God allow women and children to be burned? I don't know the full answer. People here have given you some ideas. You could also ask why does God let any of us die. Can't we just be immortal? And can't we go through life without any pain? If you want to understand how Mormons think of your question, I suggest the following talk: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/but-if-not

I want to believe there is a technical fix. I assume you have looked into it. I have to wonder, though, if there isn't a way. SQL Server really doesn't have a workaround for the 700MB problem? Or, maybe keep this current sit as a Google'able, read-only archive somehow, and start a brand new site, using the same BB software if you want.

Jason, I suggest that this is a doctrine you need to take on faith. We don't have complete logical arguments of proofs for many things that the scriptures and prophets teach us. Think, learn, and study about it - for sure. I am also completely in favor of science and human reasoning as ways of discovering truth. But some things we don't have all the answers for yet. What we do have is revelation direction from God and from the Holy Spirit, which is a different, and better in most ways, method of obtaining truth. As you continue to study and continue to be obedient, God will give you a more full understanding if you seek it and pray for it. The answer are out there, but usually in the case of spiritual knowledge, God must give the answers to you. I suggest you start with the following scriptures: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/atone-atonement?lang=eng&letter=a The following quote may help. I recommend reading the whole talk - in context, these quotes make more sense:

LeSellers, to answer BlueSkye2's reply to this, I'm pretty sure I've heard some non-Mormons talk about God the way you are saying here. There are diverse beliefs out there, of course. I'm not so sure we know much about what God is like, be we do know he is our father, he loves us, and has promised to redeem those who are obedient.

Yeah, I would vote for considering switching to different forum software. There are lots of good free ones out there, I believe. Besides the double posts, there is always an annoying lag that last several minutes when I post something. Besides, then you could hide the politics forum (after you made a politics-only forum)

Maybe true in a general sense. But God promised us he would redeem us if we obeyed him. It was part of the deal, when we supported his plan of salvation in the war in heaven.

Another great quote that explains how we need Christ's atonement This is an awesome talk - worth reading the whole thing, about the enabling power of the atonement.

By the way, the parts I've red in what I said may not be strictly doctrinal. I've heard these explained this way and it seems to make sense. The atonement is a mystery we don't fully understand. However, the main point is that you can't get back to God by your works alone. A Savior is needed. The greek word here for "glory" (as in falling short of) is doxa, which can mean the following: opinion, judgment, view opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone: in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory splendour, brightness: of the moon, sun, stars; magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace majesty: a thing belonging to God; the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity a thing belonging to Christ: the kingly majesty of the Messiah; the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty of the angels: as apparent in their exterior brightness a most glorious condition, most exalted state: of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth; the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

dup

This talk explains it very well:

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First, you are correct that it is all about becoming a Celestial person. That's how I understand it, anyway. God does't just tap us with a magic wand at the end to make us Celestial. We become that way by obeying God's commandments, along with the atonement of Christ. However, you cannot earn your way back to God by yourself. You cannot exalt yourself, not by any power you have and not by your deeds alone. By being born onto this earth, you are subject to temptation and ignorance, and you will sin. It's part of the plan. However, no unclean thing can be with God, and only Christ can take away that sin to make you clean. We are saved by grace after all we can do, the Book of Mormon says. I think of it like travelling from America to Europe. I can drive myself to the airport, but I do not have an air plane and I don't know how to fly it. Christ is like the pilot who has a plane, to get us across a gulf we cannot cross on our own. The universe obeys God because he is just. If he acted unjustly in any way, the spirits and the elements that make up the cosmos would no longer obey him. He would cease to be God, as the Book of Mormon says. The atonement provides a special exception the general rule of God being perfectly just. God and the cosmos say that you and I are unclean and unworthy (despite all we can do), but if Christ, the Son of God who did no sin, loved us enough to suffer infinitely for us, then for his sake we will be allowed to come back to God. If we obey strict guidelines (commandments).

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I ran across a great talk by Neal Maxwell today, which included this quote. We kept our first estate (siding with God in the war in heaven) and so he gave us this second estate (mortal life). We can't reject this now that we're in the middle of it:

Everything I know about gospel doctrine says that we are immortal, and that our next life will be joyful. God will give us as much joy as we were willing to allow him to, determined by our level of obedience. In the short term we may have to suffer until we pay for sins, if we don't repent. So no one is going to cease to exist, and ultimately no one will want to. Those in outer darkness may be some kind of exception. We don't know much about them, and I hope none of us find out... It's very hard to go there, luckily

The answer: replicator machines like in Star Trek

To me, a Molly Mormon is a girl who is always trying to do what's right, even if it's not "cool." Maybe she also doesn't dress in the latest styles, doesn't care so much about that kind of superficiality. I think of teenagers mostly using this term. It means "Mormon to a fault," but according to how silly teenagers see it, and not actually a fault. Trying to do what's right is never a bad thing. I don't know if I ever heard anyone actually call someone else Peter Priesthood, but I always assumed it was the male equivalent of my understanding of Molly Mormon. I didn't grow up in Utah so maybe the words had different meanings here.

It's interesting to speculate. I personally expect God's reality to be something we haven't even imagined yet. The whole multiverse idea strikes me as a false idea, but what do I know. The same with the idea that we're just living in a simulation, or a hologram, or other such recent ideas from physics. But what do I know. We don't even know how much we don't know and our senses are so limited, I'm not sure we can even imagine. We can't even perceive spirit matter.

Here's a classic - of course, it's by a Mormon scholar, and he's being sarcastic. It's actually not about how to be an anti-Mormon, but how to spot anti-Mormon tricks https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-nibley_write-anti-mormon-book/

For examples - http://en.fairmormon.org/Countercult_ministries FairMormon.org is a great pro-Mormon website, created by volunteer "apologists" - people who defend the Mormon church against lies, distortions and misunderstandings.