tesuji
-
Posts
746 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by tesuji
-
-
Why does it have to be pandering, when she explains to Mormons in terms that Mormons understand, why she will be a better president than Trump?
Apparently, she was asked by they paper even, to give this statement.
Personally, as a Mormon even, it's not even close. Hillary will be a better president and shares my values, much more than Trump does. Way more than Trump does.
-
13 minutes ago, EricE said:
Can we agree that one person's personal revelation is only hearsay to everyone else?
No matter which religion and/or god you believe in, there are more people who have and do believe in something else. And each claim to have personal revelation confirming the truth of their beliefs. Not all religions can be correct (they're too contradictory), but it is possible that all are false. Therefore we need to mechanism for determining which is true. Since personal revelation is demonstrably poor at determining what is true, we need to find something else. I'm open to suggestions.
Certainly. The Mormon answer to this is ask God which religion or philosophy is correct. If God answers, then you know two things right away, 1) God does exist and 2) which path is correct. This is how our church started - a young boy going into a forest and asking God.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng
Mormons do not believe that God gives contradictory answers to people. We believe that other religions and philosophies have good in them, and people are responding to that goodness. I don't know what God tells other people. I can well imagine that he he might tell someone to be a devout Muslim, Buddhist, or secular human rights worker - those are steps on the path to living his full gospel.
Mormons assert that their church contains his full gospel, as taught by Jesus Christ, and God will confirm this if you seek the answer.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3-5?lang=eng
-
EricE,
You are trying to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, specifcially here the doctrines of Mormons - through reason alone.
The believing Mormons on this site are here because they have felt the witness of the Holy Spirit that this church is the church of God, re-established in modern times. This witness is a revelation from God.
Revelation and human reason are two different ways to arrive at truth. In our religion, we say that revelation is foremost. Reason, scientific enquiry are great, but are secondary.
The first principle of our religion is faith in God. In other words, trusting in God. Do we trust in him blindly? No, we have the Holy Spirit telling us these things are true. We have past experience with God - when we obeyed and followed him, he blessed us.
Is God understandable to us? Not fully.
QuoteIsaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Can we learn things about him, and understand him partly. Yes, but maybe in the way an infant understands their parents. We believe in the future we will learn and grow to understand him more fully. But the primary way to do this is by obeying him - by analogy, by going to his class and doing his homework; by letting him teach us.
It seems like you are insisting on understanding God fully, right now. Mormons would say this is like an infant trying to understand where mom or dad go every morning to do their job, and insisting it's parents explain what they do at work. Will in the infant understand anything they say?
Why did God allow women and children to be burned? I don't know the full answer. People here have given you some ideas. You could also ask why does God let any of us die? Can't we just be immortal? And can't we go through life without any pain?
If you want to understand how Mormons think of your question, I suggest the following talk:
-
EricE,
You are trying to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ - specifically here the doctrines of Mormons - through reason alone.
The believing Mormons on this site are here because they have felt the witness of the Holy Spirit that this church is the church of God, re-established in modern times. This witness is a revelation from God.
Revelation and human reason are two different ways to arrive at truth. In our religion, we say that revelation is foremost. Reason, scientific inquiry are great, but are secondary.
The first principle of our religion is faith in God. In other words, trusting in God. Do we trust in him blindly? No, we have the Holy Spirit telling us these things are true. We have past experience with God - when we obeyed and followed him, he blessed us.
Is God understandable to us? Not fully.
QuoteIsaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Can we learn things about him, and understand him partly. Yes, but maybe in the way an infant understands its parents. We believe in the future we will learn and grow to understand him more fully. But the primary way to do this is by obeying him - by analogy, by going to his class and doing his homework; by letting him teach us.
It seems like you are insisting on understanding God fully, right now. Mormons would say this is like an infant trying to understand where mom or dad go every morning to do their job, and insisting its parents explain what they do at work. Will the infant understand anything they say?
Why did God allow women and children to be burned? I don't know the full answer. People here have given you some ideas. You could also ask why does God let any of us die. Can't we just be immortal? And can't we go through life without any pain?
If you want to understand how Mormons think of your question, I suggest the following talk:
- NeedleinA and theSQUIDSTER
-
2
-
11 hours ago, rpframe said:
Additionally, there are a lot of other concerns we worry about. Such as keeping the millions of posts we already have in here. Its not quite as simple as just installing new software most of the time.
We have recently upgraded our database to help alleviate some of this. But I agree it can still take a while. SQL doesn't like it much when you have multi gigabyte databases. The search index alone for this thing is 700MB.
I want to believe there is a technical fix. I assume you have looked into it.
I have to wonder, though, if there isn't a way.
SQL Server really doesn't have a workaround for the 700MB problem?
Or, maybe keep this current sit as a Google'able, read-only archive somehow, and start a brand new site, using the same BB software if you want.
-
1 hour ago, jasonnooson said:
I agree with all of that. The problem is that nothing in your analigy requires Christ to suffer and be killed to do what he did for the soccer players. Everything in your story can come just by looking to Christ, following his example. No where in your story did you mention the coach having to suffer and die for what he ended up doing. That is where the logic of the Atonement ceases to make sense to me.
Jason,
I suggest that this is a doctrine you need to take on faith. We don't have complete logical arguments of proofs for many things that the scriptures and prophets teach us.
Think, learn, and study about it - for sure. I am also completely in favor of science and human reasoning as ways of discovering truth.
But some things we don't have all the answers for yet. What we do have is revelation direction from God and from the Holy Spirit, which is a different, and better in most ways, method of obtaining truth.
As you continue to study and continue to be obedient, God will give you a more full understanding if you seek it and pray for it. The answer are out there, but usually in the case of spiritual knowledge, God must give the answers to you.
I suggest you start with the following scriptures:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/atone-atonement?lang=eng&letter=a
The following quote may help. I recommend reading the whole talk - in context, these quotes make more sense:
QuoteBefore using terms like truth, knowledge, intelligence, education, and wisdom, I stress at the outset that the scriptural insights concerning these terms or definitions of them give us, as Latter-day Saints, an added understanding of these concepts. These differ from those of the world—markedly, in some respects...
Latter-day Saints know that certain knowledge comes only by revelation and, therefore, is only “spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14–16.) ...
... gaining knowledge and becoming more Christlike “are two aspects of a single process.” (C. Terry Warner, in Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 4:1490.) This process is part of being “valiant” in our testimony of Jesus. Thus, while we are saved no faster than we gain a certain type of knowledge, it is also the case that we will gain knowledge no faster than we are saved! (See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 217.) So in our different understanding of knowledge and truth, behaving and knowing are inseparably linked.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/04/the-inexhaustible-gospel?lang=eng
-
21 minutes ago, LeSellers said:
And this is one significant place where Catholic (and most of Protestant) dogma is simply wrong.
God did not create us out of whim or caprice. We are His children. He does not need to redeem us, any more than we must breathe. But it is in our nature to breathe, and it is in His nature to redeem His creations, and, especially, His children (us). To be true to Himself, He must redeem us. That (among a few important "other things") is what makes Him God.
LeSellers, to answer BlueSkye2's reply to this, I'm pretty sure I've heard some non-Mormons talk about God the way you are saying here. There are diverse beliefs out there, of course.
I'm not so sure we know much about what God is like, be we do know he is our father, he loves us, and has promised to redeem those who are obedient.
-
18 minutes ago, Awakened said:
Perhaps you guys should try XenForo, made by the ex-vBulletin team.
Yeah, I would vote for considering switching to different forum software. There are lots of good free ones out there, I believe. Besides the double posts, there is always an annoying lag that last several minutes when I post something.
Besides, then you could hide the politics forum (after you made a politics-only forum)
-
1 hour ago, Blueskye2 said:
Sure, I believe that we are created to be with God. It is not, however, a requirement for God, that He redeem us. He could have left us in our sins. We don't merit it. We don't earn it. It is solely a gift, from God, freely given out of love, for our benefit. It is in God's definitive Revelation, Jesus Christ, who reveals God's plan and desire for all to live with Him in eternity.
Maybe true in a general sense. But God promised us he would redeem us if we obeyed him. It was part of the deal, when we supported his plan of salvation in the war in heaven.
QuoteHeavenly Father knew the grave dangers we would face on our journey through life, but He remains resolute in His desire to have each and every one of His children return home. Therefore, He gave us time—time to work out our mistakes, time to overcome our sins, time to prepare for reunion. “There was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God” (Alma 12:24).
But Heavenly Father knew that even if we exerted every ounce of energy, we could not make it home without divine help. Therefore, He promised, “We will provide a savior for you!” (see 1 Ne. 10:4; 1 Ne. 13:40; Moses 1:6; 2 Ne. 25:23).
In fulfillment of this promise, Jesus Christ came during the meridian of time, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Eternal Father, in the flesh. He walked the paths and byways of mortality so He could “know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities” (Alma 7:12; see also Alma 7:11; Ether 12:27; D&C 20:22; D&C 62:1). There is not one vexation, anxiety, or suffering unfamiliar to Him. Though He is without sin yet knows He each and every one of our griefs that He might be able to help us (see Isa. 53:3–6).
Christ bridged the gulf between the mortal and immortal. The grave no longer holds its captives; justice can be satisfied through mercy; the wondrous Atonement, infinite and eternal in scope, is in place (see Alma 34:8–10, 14–16). Christ is the resurrected Lord, our Savior and Redeemer.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1999/04/welcome-home?lang=eng&_r=1
QuoteI, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say
Doctrine and Covenants 82:3
-
Another great quote that explains how we need Christ's atonement
QuoteIn mortality we all are tempted by the flesh. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. And we can increase our capacity to overcome the desires of the flesh and temptations, as described in this verse, “through the atonement of Christ.”
When we make mistakes—as we transgress and sin—we are able to overcome such weakness through the redeeming and cleansing power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-a-bednar_strength-lord/
This is an awesome talk - worth reading the whole thing, about the enabling power of the atonement.
-
54 minutes ago, tesuji said:First, you are correct that it is all about becoming a Celestial person. That's how I understand it, anyway. God does't just tap us with a magic wand at the end to make us Celestial. We become that way by obeying God's commandments.However, you cannot earn your way back to God by yourself. You cannot exalt yourself, not by any power you have and not by your deeds alone.By being born onto this earth, you are subject to temptation and ignorance, and you will sin. It's part of the plan. However, no unclean thing can be with God, and only Christ can take away that sin to make you clean. We are saved by grace after all we can do, the Book of Mormon says.I think of it like travelling from America to Europe. I can drive myself to the airport, but I do not have an air plane and I don't know how to fly it. Christ is like the pilot who has a plane, to get us across a gulf we cannot cross on our own.The universe obeys God because he is just. If he acted unjustly in any way, the spirits and the elements that make up the cosmos would no longer obey him. He would cease to be God, as the Book of Mormon says.The atonement provides a special exception the general rule of God being perfectly just. God and the cosmos say that you and I are unclean and unworthy (despite all we can do), but if Christ, the Son of God who did no sin, loved us enough to suffer infinitely for us, then for his sake we will allow the sinners to come back to God. If the sinners obey strict guidelines (commandments).
By the way, the parts I've red in what I said may not be strictly doctrinal. I've heard these explained this way and it seems to make sense.
The atonement is a mystery we don't fully understand.
However, the main point is that you can't get back to God by your works alone. A Savior is needed.
QuoteRomans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GodThe greek word here for "glory" (as in falling short of) is doxa, which can mean the following:
opinion, judgment, view
opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone:
in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
splendour, brightness:
of the moon, sun, stars;
magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
majesty:
a thing belonging to God;
the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
a thing belonging to Christ:
the kingly majesty of the Messiah;
the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
of the angels:
as apparent in their exterior brightness
a most glorious condition, most exalted state:
of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth;
the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven- Blackmarch and LeSellers
-
2
-
-
This talk explains it very well:
QuoteThe Mediator
Boyd K. Packer
Of the Council of the Twelvehttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/04/the-mediator?lang=eng&_r=1
-
-
First, you are correct that it is all about becoming a Celestial person. That's how I understand it, anyway. God does't just tap us with a magic wand at the end to make us Celestial. We become that way by obeying God's commandments, along with the atonement of Christ.However, you cannot earn your way back to God by yourself. You cannot exalt yourself, not by any power you have and not by your deeds alone.By being born onto this earth, you are subject to temptation and ignorance, and you will sin. It's part of the plan. However, no unclean thing can be with God, and only Christ can take away that sin to make you clean. We are saved by grace after all we can do, the Book of Mormon says.I think of it like travelling from America to Europe. I can drive myself to the airport, but I do not have an air plane and I don't know how to fly it. Christ is like the pilot who has a plane, to get us across a gulf we cannot cross on our own.The universe obeys God because he is just. If he acted unjustly in any way, the spirits and the elements that make up the cosmos would no longer obey him. He would cease to be God, as the Book of Mormon says.The atonement provides a special exception the general rule of God being perfectly just. God and the cosmos say that you and I are unclean and unworthy (despite all we can do), but if Christ, the Son of God who did no sin, loved us enough to suffer infinitely for us, then for his sake we will be allowed to come back to God. If we obey strict guidelines (commandments).
-
(duplicate deleted)
-
I ran across a great talk by Neal Maxwell today, which included this quote. We kept our first estate (siding with God in the war in heaven) and so he gave us this second estate (mortal life). We can't reject this now that we're in the middle of it:
QuoteIn some ways, our second estate, in relationship to our first estate, is like agreeing in advance to surgery. Then the anesthetic of forgetfulness settles in upon us.
Just as doctors do not de-anesthetize a patient in the midst of authorized surgery to ask him again if the surgery should be continued, so, after divine tutoring, we agreed to come here and to submit ourselves to certain experiences; it was an irrevocable decision.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/02/a-more-determined-discipleship?lang=eng
-
Everything I know about gospel doctrine says that we are immortal, and that our next life will be joyful. God will give us as much joy as we were willing to allow him to, determined by our level of obedience.
In the short term we may have to suffer until we pay for sins, if we don't repent.
So no one is going to cease to exist, and ultimately no one will want to.
Those in outer darkness may be some kind of exception. We don't know much about them, and I hope none of us find out... It's very hard to go there, luckily
-
On August 7, 2016 at 11:11 PM, NightSG said:
But what about pigs?
I mean, if it's so wonderful there, there must be bacon there, and that's generally not terribly pleasant for the pig. It would have to be agony for a pig that can't die. Or do they like being dismantled, smoked and fried there?
The answer: replicator machines like in Star Trek
-
To me, a Molly Mormon is a girl who is always trying to do what's right, even if it's not "cool." Maybe she also doesn't dress in the latest styles, doesn't care so much about that kind of superficiality. I think of teenagers mostly using this term. It means "Mormon to a fault," but according to how silly teenagers see it, and not actually a fault. Trying to do what's right is never a bad thing.
I don't know if I ever heard anyone actually call someone else Peter Priesthood, but I always assumed it was the male equivalent of my understanding of Molly Mormon.
I didn't grow up in Utah so maybe the words had different meanings here.
-
It's interesting to speculate. I personally expect God's reality to be something we haven't even imagined yet.
The whole multiverse idea strikes me as a false idea, but what do I know. The same with the idea that we're just living in a simulation, or a hologram, or other such recent ideas from physics. But what do I know.
We don't even know how much we don't know and our senses are so limited, I'm not sure we can even imagine. We can't even perceive spirit matter.
-
Here's a classic - of course, it's by a Mormon scholar, and he's being sarcastic. It's actually not about how to be an anti-Mormon, but how to spot anti-Mormon tricks
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-nibley_write-anti-mormon-book/
-
On 8/6/2016 at 4:57 PM, Maureen said:
Jane_Doe, could you give an example of any anti-mormon that provided literature with any of what you have described - spinning, half-truths, strawmen arguments, downright lies, or other falsehood methodology?
M.
For examples - http://en.fairmormon.org/Countercult_ministries
FairMormon.org is a great pro-Mormon website, created by volunteer "apologists" - people who defend the Mormon church against lies, distortions and misunderstandings.
-
2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:
I don't have an issue with writing it out, we LDS get overly concerned about vain repetition. Write it out tweak it as you go along pretty soon you'll have the basics down to memory and can adlib a little. If you freeze up you'll have something committed to memory.
Exactly. I was going to suggest writing it out too. Show it to the bishop or someone if you want before hand.
Also, listen carefully to other prayers, to learn how people usually do it.
As others have said, if you speak from the heart, with sincerity, the Lord will be happy, I believe. He's the only one you need to please.
The standard format is:
1. Open with "Our heavently Father..."
2. "We thank the for..." [whatever is appropriate for the occastion]
3. "We ask thee for..." [whatever appropriate]
4. "In the name of thy Son Jesus Christ, amen"
The exact wording doesn't matter; these are just examples.
I would use the thee and thy as in my example above, to begin these sentences. After that, don't stress, if it's too much to worry about proper use of "thee" and "thy" elsewhere in the prayer. Just say "you" and "your" if you want.
If you want to know the grammar of the older English, here are the basics below. Don't worry too much about using this old grammar - many other members don't really know how to use them either. This is just for your info, if you are interested.
thou = you, when subject of a sentence ("Thou are great", etc)
thee = you, when object of a sentence ("We offer to thee...", "We thank thee...", etc)
thy, thine = your
ye = you all (more than one person)
With other verbs, usually add -st or -est. Such as "thou wouldest"
The thee, thou, thy is actually what is known as "familiar" address. Like some modern languages such as French and Spanish, older English at one time had two forms of addressing someone, two ways of saying "you." The "thou" form was what you used when talking to your friends or spouse. The "you" that we all use now for everything was originally the more formal way, when talking to your boss or someone you didn't know.
So if you decide to use it, the "Mormon prayer language" method of using "thou" and "thee" actually mean we are talking to God as a close friend or family member, which I think is kind of cool.
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/3329/difference-between-thee-and-thou
But seriously don't worry about this old grammar for the prayer language. What matters is that you are sincere.
Hillary openly panders to Mormons
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by tesuji
OK, as some of you may know, I don't like arguing politics and I think it's almost always pointless. I would prefer not to see political threads on this site. But even if a dog just wants to take a nap, if you poke it enough it will probably respond - that's how it feels.
In this election, in my opinion, you don't even have to love Hillary. Trump is so unsuited to be president and says so many ignorant and offensive things that clearly it should be anyone but Trump. He is so far out off the map, as far as what a candidate should be. To someone who disagrees with me, I can only say please follow the news better, and don't get only one perspective. Go to the Washington Post site on any given day, if you want to see what I'm talking about, as far as Trump.
There are too many points, as far as areas I agree with Hillary on. I don't agree with everything - I'm completely against gay marriage, for example.
Check out all her points, and see how you think they align with the gospel. I mean the gospel, not Mormon conservative culture.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
I'm not a Democrat, but I agree with them on many points, Please read the following, including page 2, to get my general feeling about that party and the gospel.
http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Why-Im-a-Mormon-Democrat
I apologize if I'm seeming to be evasive. I really don't want to argue about this. I stated my opinion. I know many Mormons disagree with me. I'm sure I haven't answered to your satisfaction.
[edited, forgot the second link]