The Folk Prophet

Quote The fact that the decision is individual (which is absolutely valid and clear) does not nullify the general counsel given. For example, concerning having children, Elder Neil L Andersen said: "When to have a child and how many children to have are private decisions to be made between a husband and wife and the Lord. These are sacred decisions—decisions that should be made with sincere prayer and acted on with great faith." In the same article he taught that we should not delay or limit our family. Was he breaking his own standard and contradicting himself in doing so? Of course not. "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves." Joseph Smith So it is with these things. The church teaches us correct principles. But it is our business whether we follow them or not. The correct principle is clear. Here's another quote for the mix: "If you are a young man of appropriate age and are not married, don’t waste time in idle pursuits. Get on with life and focus on getting married. Don’t just coast through this period of life. Young men, serve a worthy mission. Then make your highest priority finding a worthy, eternal companion." - Richard G. Scott (Incidentally, per your response to estradling75, how do you reconcile making it the highest priority and not thinking about it whatsoever? I believe it clear that when it says "not think about getting married", it does not mean literally do not think about it, but is a turn of phrase meaning they should not jump into it unprepared. The emphasis is clearly on preparing for it, which requires thinking about it. -- just my thoughts)

This pretty much sums up why I'm not wealthy. The problem is that I'm finally getting there. Finally learning to enjoy work, and finally learning to be frugal. But, man-o-man, have I messed up things in my younger years by not having these things in place. Edit: This is also the church's clear position on these things. You're father was wise.

If we wanted to start looking at the church's "position" on whether to wait for financial stability before having children or not, we get a whole new understanding. The church's position, as always, incorporates wisdom, but it is, without question, that we should be making babies! :) (Legally and lawfully within the bounds of marriage, of course).

Marry a good man who is dedicated to the gospel and right. One who served a mission, does his home teaching, speaks often of the gospel and clearly loves it, has a testimony and shares it, serves his neighbor, and treats you with absolute respect, showing honor and integrity in all he does. Go to the Lord and get confirmation that he is the right one for you to marry. Does this ^ mean he won't end up having pornography problems? No. But the chances are much higher that he won't, and if he does, the chances that he'll repent and overcome it are much higher.

I would agree with estradling75. The Lord would have us be able to help the poor, which requires us to have more than we require for ourselves. But would the Lord have us all be multi-millionaires? I think not. I really think that the answer is individual. There are, IMO, undoubtedly those that the Lord would have rich, and undoubtedly those that the Lord would have poor. We do our best, struggle to be self-sufficient, obey the commandments, and trust the Lord's will be done.

But the church has counselled to not intentionally put off marriage to finish school. Forgive me if I'm misreading this, but there seems to be an implication that the church has no position. I would contend that to be obviously inaccurate. It also seems to me that most peoples idea of what self-sufficient means is pretty far off based.

Do you have the so-called "clear" teachings from the Bible on this they provided? Would be interesting. Not every calendar has Saturday as the 7th day though.

That's between the home teacher and the Lord. Some home teachers have the time and ability to do more. But that's not really my point. I'm simply saying it's a team effort. Primarily it should be family, then the bishop and the ward. The bishop should delegate (as JaG pointed out) and/or work through other means as best he can, and as guided by the spirit. But others should be willing and ready to pitch in if asked (particularly the home and visiting teachers -- but certainly not limited to them...)

Uh...commandment vs. not a commandment. It's not complicated. If a man chooses not to go on a mission, he has disobeyed and therefore must deal with the consequences of disobedience. If a woman chooses not to go, she has not disobeyed.

Yes, we all read it the first time it was posted. You're off the counsel of the church, as indicated in the start of this, in saying, FINISH SCHOOL...then marry. No one has said that people should marry if they can't care for their family. What is being said is that it is perfectly possible to care for a family while going to school.

Then you did not understand the last paragraph of my post #41 at all.

This was my thought as well. This sort of thing is everyone's responsibility. And the bishop is not, and should not be, a micro-manager--or worse the one who literally does everything. But it is his responsibility, at a broad level. I mean, who are their home and visiting teachers, for example.

Who's playing that down as a problem? One word. Faith.

Well, there's yer problem... Except the fancy cars, they have chosen righteously by marrying (assuming they married righteously). I paid my tithing. I also have too much debt. Does the wrong decision cancel out the right decision? Should I be ashamed of my right choices because of my weaknesses? Yes. But this is not particularly relevant to whether we pursue marriage or not. Just as my poor financial choices in the past are irrelevant to whether I pay tithing or not. People go into too much debt. It's a real problem. It is against the counsel we are given. I am guilty of it myself. People should not. What they should do, instead, is live cheaper, but still obey the counsel of the Lord to pay tithing and fast offerings, marry, have children, have food storage, etc. I can say very confidently from my personal experience that my debt has nothing to do with the choice to get married. Nothing! It comes from not hearkening to the counsel I was given, not prioritizing things correctly, and being too consumed with the idea of living well, having stuff, and being comfortable. I would expect that this is true for most married couples who are in debt. It does not stem from marrying too early. (Obviously there are always exceptions).

I did not say the church counselled to marry while in school. I said the church counsels not to put off marriage for school. There is a difference. You're twisting things again. Of course. But one could use the same argument to debate the paying of tithing or a healthy fast offering, or limiting family size, or not having children at all. The Lord expects us to sacrifice certain thing. As has been pointed out to you, repeatedly, it is not in any regard given that marrying while in school means less self sufficiency. It is entirely possible to be self sufficient when marrying before schooling is complete. It's about priorities. The simple fact that many do just this and manage to be self-sufficient is evidence enough. Are you seriously contending that everyone who marries young before finishing school is doomed to be dirt poor. This is a ridiculous idea. Moreover, you seem to be equating self-sufficiency with wealth? Don't go into debt. Don't buy a house you can't afford. Don't go out to eat. Don't use credit cards. Buy your clothes at D.I. Live off of inexpensive home-made meals. Don't go to movies. Don't buy televisions. Drive old, inexpensive vehicles. Etc., etc. Married couples do this all the time while they work their way through school. Then, upon completion, the husband gets a solid job, and they are able to move up the ladder of financial success. It is not only possible, it's very, very doable if only people are willing to let go of consumerism and actually be poor. Self-sufficient does not mean wealthy.

That would be interesting. I don't think it will ever be a one-to-one council where young men and young women are giving the same. Roles differ. Advice should, therefore, also differ. But certainly the attitude in women serving missions has changed over the course of the past century, and I can certainly see it shifting more moving forward.

So after Pam's reply I realized that I may have mistaken your meaning. If you mean that whether male or female, it makes no difference as to the experience preparing you for life, I agree. If you mean that whether male or female it makes no difference as to the decision, then I disagree. Just so we're clear.

Heheh. I guess I should have clipped the quote. Let me try again: Nonsense. Men have been commanded to go on missions. Women have not. It very much makes a difference.

The fact that you see it as out of context only goes to show that you don't know what the church's position has always been on this matter, that you are not well versed on this at all, and that you have not read the words of the prophets and apostles through the years. Either that or you are incapable of understanding what is plainly before you. The context is not ambiguous. The priority of marriage is very clear. You seem to have forgotten what the discussion is about. You're trying to pigeon-hole my view into something silly to counter me. I have never said that the church tells people to get married before it is appropriate. I have never said that financial struggle is a requirement or anything like that. What I countered is your advise that the OP should finish school before considering marriage. That opinion is counter to the church's advise. And you can claim "interpretation" all day long, but there is nothing to interpret. There are plenty of sources from the church stating this, and no sources anywhere advising as you have. None. It is not interpretation or context. The context of President Monsons talk is clear. "...so many young men are postponing marriage. This is not a new situation. Much has been said concerning this matter by past Presidents of the Church." I gave you an example of what past Presidents of the Church has said. You claimed it wasn't valid because it was old. I'm showing you that President Monson still considered past President's views as valid. One of his quotes was older than the talk I gave you from '73. The advice to prioritize marriage and to not put it off for financial security is not out of date, as President Monson makes clear. Your belligerent determination to ignore any advise from the prophets of the church that you don't like, labeling it out of context or too old is your business. You have the right to see it how you want to. And clearly, you will. Against any quote, scripture, lesson, or teaching, you will hold to your counter positions. That is your prerogative. But I will counter advice that contradicts church teaching. No one need accept what you are calling my interpretation. The words of the prophets are there for all to read. But these teachings are not obscure. Not in the least. As I indicated, a simple search on lds.org yields a bounty. Without even trying: Here's Ezra Taft Benson: "Without marriage, the purposes of the Lord would be frustrated. Choice spirits would be withheld from the experience of mortality. And postponing marriage unduly often means limiting your posterity, and the time will come, brethren, when you will feel and know that loss. I can assure you that the greatest responsibility and the greatest joys in life are centered in the family, honorable marriage, and rearing a righteous posterity. And the older you become, the less likely you are to marry, and then you may lose these eternal blessings altogether." Here's Jeffrey R. Holland “I am not saying you shouldn’t be very careful about something as significant and serious as marriage. … Yes, there are cautions and considerations to make, but once there has been genuine illumination, beware the temptation to retreat from a good thing. If it was right when you prayed about it and trusted it and lived for it, it is right now. Don’t give up when the pressure mounts. You can find an apartment. You can win over your mother-in-law. You can sell your harmonica and therein fund one more meal. It’s been done before. Don’t give in. Certainly don’t give in to that being who is bent on the destruction of your happiness.He wants everyone to be miserable like unto himself. Face your doubts. Master your fears. ‘Cast not away therefore your confidence.’ Stay the course and see the beauty of life unfold for you.” Here's Gordon B. Hinkley: “I do not worry about you young men who have recently returned from the mission field. You know as well as I what you ought to do. It is your responsibility and opportunity, under the natural process of dating and courting, to find a wonderful companion and marry in the house of the Lord. Don’t rush it unduly and don’t delay it unduly. ‘Marry in haste and repent at leisure’ is an old proverb that still has meaning in our time. But do not dally along in a fruitless, frustrating, and frivolous dating game that only raises hopes and brings disappointment and in some cases heartache” Etc., etc., etc... There are many, many more. I haven't even gone into the billion-and-one quotes about not delaying having children (something that, obviously, requires marriage, but that isn't always explicitly said, so it actually does require interpretation -- and as I am accused by you of interpreting, I'll stick to the specific marriage quotes). The teaching is clear. Marriage is priority. Don't delay it for worldly reasons. And obviously, the teaching doesn't mean willy-nilly marry the first person you possibly can or that there are no other considerations. There is, of course, balance in all things. But that balance does not include worldly, selfish things meant to make life more comfortable at the expense of that which we have been commanded -- to marry and to multiply and replenish the earth. You like to take my clear point (don't put off marriage for your education) and twist it and add to it as if I've said a bunch of stuff I didn't. Useful. So when did I say that we must get married in college or it's a sin? When did I say there is a specific time frame in which we must be married or it's a sin? Nice straw man. It's a funny way to put it that I can't "resist the temptation" to challenge". As if defending a gospel position is a temptation. Right. I'm just giving in to a temptation. Good one.

Nonsense.

There is no question here in my opinion. You go on your mission and you trust in the Lord. The Lord will bless you for the sacrifice. Show your trust in Him. Edit: I realized you might not be male. If you're a male I stand by my answer. If you're female, I agree with Treble.clef. If you're male I do not agree with Treble.clef. You go on your mission. The praying should be to give you the strength and faith to go. God has already given the answer. Every worthy male!

I read sarcasm into it. I apologize.

And I am getting the impression that you have an issue with me disagreeing with him/her and/or pointing out that the church's teachings disagree with him/her. I put the same question to you then. What's wrong with me giving my personal opinion in response to someone else's personal opinion?

Nothing wrong with it. Just as there is nothing wrong with me pointing out that it's contrary to the church's teaching. Anyone is free to post their advise. If it contradicts with what is taught by the church, I'm likely to point it out. The OP, is free to listen to whatever advise they deem appropriate.

Incidentally, do your own research. Sheesh. No wonder you seem to consistently contradict the gospel. it's not like it's hard. You go to lds.org and type in "marriage" in the search box and WHAMMO! All the info you could want on it. Talks, quotes, scriptures, lessons. Imagine what you could know on your own if you put some effort into it.