The Folk Prophet

Well we don't disagree then. :) I also hope it didn't come across as if I'm saying women should not focus on a mission. I think, as a general rule (particularly with the age lower) that women should plan on missions. (Though they should not be pressured to go). The only real reason a woman should not go, imo, is if there is a returned missionary male she meets which whom she falls in love, etc., and the Spirit confirms it is right. Then, she should go ahead and get married. The church has specific counsel to not encourage a woman to serve a mission if she has marriage plans in place. As quoted by Elder Scott from a first presidency letter: "Worthy single women [of the right age] … may be recommended to serve full-time missions. … These sisters can make a valuable contribution … , but they should not be pressured to serve. Bishops should not recommend them for missionary service if it will interfere with imminent marriage prospects.”

You would think that. Honestly, what church do you belong to?

I "liked" this, but I'm not sure I like agreeing with you. It makes me uncomfortable. Heheh. j/k, of course.

I have a moderately nice watch that my wife bought me. It retailed for $300 but was on sale for half off. Plus other Kohl's discounts and I think she paid something like $75 for it. And it is my precious. I will hand it down as an heirloom someday.

:) I am not advocating living without running water. Just so we're clear.

Good grief yes!!

Oh yes we are. I lived for 2 years without running water, brown outs, spiders, cockroach city, boil all your water, etc., etc... And you know what? It was fine! I didn't actually need running water. Imagine that!

Clearly you have never priced Ramen.

$100.

Every American should spend some time in the Philippines or similar cultures to gain some perspective on their American spoiled-rottenness. :)

We're saying the same(ish) thing. Just anecdotal, I was gainfully (sort of) employed when I was married ($10 an hour job in the 90s). I got canned (let go? fired?) just before my wedding. A points to this. It took me 3 months to find another job. It caused me trouble. Yes. But did we get by? Yes. Did we get by without help? Not really? Am I okay with that? Sure. Did it play a big role in my current financial life? No. Was it wrong for me to not cancel my wedding? The idea is laughable to me. Stuff happens. If you're sitting around not working because you're a lazy bum, you shouldn't be getting married anyhow. If you happen to be unemployed because of a setback, for a month or two it's a very, very different story.

The fact that you do not understand this is exactly why there are so many debt problems.

I mostly agree with you. Just FYI. But I do not think it is valid to compare a family vacation and transportation to what amounts to a ritzy piece of man-jewelry. And no one, not even the church leadership, handles their stewardships wisely in all regards. We all make bad decisions. I'm sure he is a great guy. I do not hold what I view as a poor choice against him. I would gladly follow him as a church leader, sustain him, and trust his financial advise. I still think buying an expensive watch is a waste and a mistake.

I'm perfectly capable of deciding that a 5-50k watch qualifies as excessive. So does a solid gold car. It is one's own business between them and the Lord how much they choose to spend on a watch. But in my point of view, spending that much on a watch is offensive. And it IS TOO for us to decide. We'd better decide these things. We are accountable for how we handle our stewardships. We had better decide what is and isn't excessive, what is and isn't appropriate, and what is and isn't of worth.

It's an interesting thought with a lot of semantic play in the meanings going into the views. At a very basic level, the answer is yes. I do agree. However, I believe that the ability to provide basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter, takes about as long as it takes to go get a minimum wage job somewhere. Who is incapable of that? I also don't see why someone could not be pursuing getting said job at the same time as dating and considering the future. I do not read unemployed as ineligible for thinking about marriage, particularly when the intent of looking for work is to prepare oneself. And, certainly, if the approach is to get that minimum wage job and then retire from it 50 years later, then there's a problem. Though, frankly, that's less related to marriage than it is to basic self improvement and reliance (which, of course, becomes a part of marriage when you are responsible for others...but problematic for a single person as well).

It's irrelevant. It's 5-50k that could have been given to the poor and needy, or otherwise used to build the kingdom of the Lord. Fair point. But I don't really buy it. $125k membership to a golf club to do business? But in fairness....maybe. Nonsense. The requirement to be a 70 is not perfection. I'm sorry...125k for a membership to a club? Thousands upon thousands for a watch? I'm judging. Not the man. That's between him and God. The action though? With the potential exception of the membership being required for business (I don't buy that for a second though), I still call it disgusting. When God blessed you with money you use it to build His kingdom, not to play golf and wear ridiculous watches.

Jacob 2:18-19. But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

I'm not afraid to say it. This is disgusting, 70 or not.

Thank you! And, yes, I admit culpability along these lines.

The problem isn't with the attitude of pressing forward without sure knowledge (sure knowledge is also not faith). The problem is pressing forward and then not doing what they can to succeed. There's nothing wrong with getting married without a solid plan in place from marriage vows to death. As estradling75 said, all you really need is basic paying jobs to start out (with a plan for increasing that via education and the like). There is a problem with jumping into marriage with no plan whatsoever, and no intent to work to succeed. So I don't disagree with you as to the problem, but I think the reasons behind the problems stem from different things than you seem to. This is a logical fallacy. I would contend that the reason the divorce rate is increasing is because of the downplay of the importance of family, not because people are getting married too young. Either way, you'd best support a view like that with some logical, statistical, empirical backing. Just claiming it doesn't hold much water.

You know, as I think about it, finances and frugality is a big part of why my opinions tend so strongly towards obedience. I, very literally, was incapable of understanding these things in my younger years. I did not have the maturity I do now. I look back on it now and can't believe how stupid I was. And yet, I knew what the church taught, and I disregarded it in favor of my own feelings. Looking back, I still believe that I was incapable of understanding frugality. But I know I was capable of obeying. At my current state, I understand much more, and am much more capable of right choices on my own, but I'm also aware that I will continue to grow in understanding and maturity, and therefore, I still rely upon obedience as the paramount principle in the gospel. Should we seek wealth? Who knows. Should we obey? Yes. And as the principles of wealth (as Traveler described) are part of obedience, by so doing we are seeking wealth.

Or...were they guided, inspired, and blessed to be wealthy because of the special mission the Lord had for them?

Addressed in post #59, but I'll restate. The fact that something is an individual decisions does not nullify the principle.

Awesome! I think this key point is something sorely lacking from a lot of our prayers (I know from many of mine in the past) that is so paramount. I think we get a lot of, "help me to do Thy will", which is fine, but not as much, "I will do Thy will if Thou wouldst make it known unto me", which is significantly better.

Faith is EXACTLY what will feed and cloth spouse and babies. Faith, as is well known, is an action word, and is dead without works. Claiming faith, on the other hand, and then proceeding to ignore the counsel given by the church to be self-sufficient, gain an education, stay out of debt, etc., is no faith at all. Refusing to see a doctor when sick because you have "faith" is not faith. Faith is not equivalent to belief.