The Folk Prophet

The errors of men creeped in because they slew the apostles. We're not exactly doing that. (Though it seems some would try). The ancient church didn't go astray because the prophets and apostles used their agency to do things against the will of God. There is simply no support for that. Even when mistakes were made, God set them right, and pretty quick. It is not a like to like comparison. We can trust that this is God's church and if there are mistakes made, that God will set it right. We do not need to doubt this, as promises have been given by the Lord.

*shrug* I still don't see the difference. Maybe it's a guy thing. If someone said I was unable to bear the pain it would be offensive. It would be labeling me as weak. You can't take it, you big wuss!

I've been thinking about this. The idea that doubt is a necessary condition of faith is interesting and makes sense. I had a thought however, that helps reconcile things a bit in my mind. I see it comparable to sin being a necessary condition for repentance. In both cases, the one is necessary for the other because of the polarity. They are opposites, and they cannot exist together, but the one cannot exist without the reality of the other. Therefore, in the same way that sin is not good, neither is doubt. But through both we can make our weaknesses strong if we turn to the Lord. Which, of course, makes me mindful of Ether 12:27-28: "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness." I also thought this was an interesting quote by Richard C. Edgley, (First Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric - Oct 2010) "Alma’s classic discussion on faith, as recorded in the 32nd chapter of Alma in the Book of Mormon, is a series of choices to ensure the development and the preservation of our faith. Alma gave us a directive to choose. His were words of action initiated by choosing. He used the words awake, arouse, experiment, exercise, desire, work, and plant. Then Alma explained that if we make these choices and do not cast the seed out by unbelief, then “it will begin to swell within [our] breasts” (Alma 32:28). Yes, faith is a choice, and it must be sought after and developed. Thus, we are responsible for our own faith. We are also responsible for our lack of faith. The choice is yours. <snip> "And so, following Alma’s formula, let us choose. Let us choose faith. If confusion and hopelessness weigh on your mind, choose to “awake and arouse your faculties” (Alma 32:27). Humbly approaching the Lord with a broken heart and contrite spirit is the pathway to truth and the Lord’s way of light, knowledge, and peace. If your testimony is immature, untested, and insecure, choose to “exercise [even] a particle of faith”; choose to “experiment upon [His] words” (Alma 32:27). The Savior explained, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17). When logic, reason, or personal intellect come into conflict with sacred teachings and doctrine, or conflicting messages assault your beliefs as the fiery darts described by the Apostle Paul (see Ephesians 6:16), choose to not cast the seed out of your heart by unbelief. Remember, we receive not a witness until after the trial of our faith (see Ether 12:6). If your faith is proven and mature, choose to nurture it “with great care” (Alma 32:37). As strong as our faith is, with all the mixed messages attacking it, it can also become very fragile. It needs constant nourishment through continued scripture study, prayer, and the application of His word." Doubt is a mortal weakness. Not all will doubt the same, but all must react to doubt the same -- by casting it out with faith -- or it will lead to destruction. I do not believe the "trend" of doubt is healthy in the slightest regard. We should be encouraging faith, not doubt.

We've been through this before...but... You simply cannot separate God's church from God. It's either His church and He leads it or it is not. From my perspective, doubt that the church is led by God is a serious problem. Doubting that God has control over His church, belief that the institution is running amok -- it just does not jibe. It's God's church but man's institution?

I'm not saying I disagree with you, per se. But I don't think it addresses how to reconcile what Joseph Smith said and how to reconcile doubt being against the myriad of scriptures (I only quoted a portion) that consistently tell us to doubt not.

It's a nice sentiment. I can't see it (pain) as a universal reason why doubt leads to apostasy though. Sometimes, sure. In every case though? I also don't understand where it's problematic to "label" someone as lacking faith but it's okay to label them as unable to bear the pain. Why is one bothersome but the other not?

I believe Spirit Dragon addressed this. It is implicit (or, rather, should be) that in discussing whether doubt is good or bad that we're talking about doubting the gospel. Of course doubting false things is acceptable.

I don't remember that scripture.

Hey, don't lump me in with his pov on this. My only comments have been on a 50k watch.How is your passing judgement on me any better?

Where doubt is, there faith has no power.

So how do you reconcile this with the Joseph Smith quote above? He was full of it? :)

I, unfortunately, do like to brag about my watch. But it's not because of the cost. I usually downplay that ashamedly. But it's a cool watch! Hmm.....prideful?

I think the question should rather be... Are people who have sinned and repented stronger than those who never sinned in the first place?

A couple of thoughts strike me. 1. Faith and belief are a choice. 2. Questioning and not understanding are not necessarily the same thing as doubt.

Some scriptures about not doubting, for consideration: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/6.36?lang=eng#35 Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel/5.49?lang=eng#48 And there were about three hundred souls who saw and heard these things; and they were bidden to go forth and marvel not, neither should they doubt. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/8.8?lang=eng#7 Therefore, doubt not, for it is the gift of God; and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands, for it is the work of God. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/9.27?lang=eng#26 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-tim/2.8?lang=eng#7 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/9.25?lang=eng#24 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/9.21?lang=eng#20 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/26.10?lang=eng#9 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/7.9?lang=eng#8 If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/32.22?lang=eng#21 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

"Where doubt is, there faith has no power." - Joseph Smith How do we reconcile this with Jenmarie's excellent perspective?

What is needlessly?

Sounds about on par with what I'm hearing about on the interweb. Having faith must include a failure to have thought it through.

This is a very interesting perspective. I'll have to think on it.

This is what I want to discuss. Is it really not? I'm not so sure.

Let's discuss doubt. It seems quite trendy, in some circles, to embrace doubt as some sort of virtue. What are your thoughts on doubt?

Technically...maybe. Is a law that is put into law through criminal methods criminal even though it's legal? Also, my read of it, I don't think the use of the word "criminal" was meant technically. It was literally figurative...

Since it's the Prophet who calls you on a mission, then he certainly has the right to not call you. In Donny's case, it's fairly easy to view it in terms of his mission being to stay in the public eye.

*sigh* If that's the best you're capable of understanding... I'm done here.

Oh...and I forgot to add this: The need to go and see your bishop has no bearing on the qualifications for what constitutes sin.