Crash

Love it!

Nope, the church doesn't say it, and neither did I. What I did say, and I guess I have to repeat myself again, too, is that if you feel the need to always pray about what the prophet says then your testimony is not as strong. I also said that if you always question what the prophet says then you don't sustain him. There is a big difference between always having to pray about everything he says, which is what I actually said, and praying once to know if he is ordained of God. Suzie, I think I'm done. It seems I have offended you and for that I apologize and I ask for your forgiveness.

I really hope you are still around. I know exactly what you are going through. I spent most of my adult life up to my marriage, and after, in positions of leadership with the youth as well as district leadership positions in Scouting. I was a volunteer at a high school and a track club for USA Track & Field. On Sundays I would visit members of my ward to see if they needed anything. I served a full-time mission and I kept/keep my language clean. Not straight as an arrow because nobody really is but I didn't go out partying like everyone else, nor is there malice in my heart. Despite the things I felt I was doing right my wife told me repeatedly that I had deceived everyone I know, that I was not a good person. Her life was very different from mine and she pulled the wool over my eyes as to what she was really like. Her life had been filled with drugs, drinking, and sex with guys and girls since she was 12, even when she was serving as a YW president. She got pregnant twice before she was 18. I have never done any of those things (except the sex part when we were married). She never wore her garments but excoriated me one time for missing the priesthood session of General Conference. I had strived to to everything right but she was projecting all of her guilt onto me, so she wouldn't have to deal with it herself. She is very narcissistic. We aren't married anymore. I wouldn't stand for it. I'm not suggesting your wife is doing really bad things but if you are not, then you are not a bad person. From my point of view and experience she is doing something wrong but doesn't want to accept it, so she is projecting her guilt onto you and it is affecting your self-esteem just like it did me. Please stop all thoughts of ending your life and seek counsel from your bishop and possibly a professional. Also, please go to counseling with your wife to try and resolve these issues. It is NOT your fault!

You didn't invite me to read anything. You pointed out that I am new and there are topics covering things here, as if I should do my homework first, that I don't know how things are done on the forum. Where did you ask me to read anything? It was condescending. If you do not like me suggesting that you gain a testimony then that is your prerogative, just as I said in response. Again, please read all of my responses instead of picking and choosing what to quote me on because you're not putting things in full context. This is what you wrote, word for word: As for gaining a testimony, this is exactly what I said in response to you not wanting to:

I can't help but think you completely ignored all of the quotes Church provided because they directly addressed nearly everything you have been talking about. You're putting words into my mouth again. Please quote me directly where I said you do not have a testimony or do not sustain the church leaders if you pray about something the prophet says. Here is what I said: Notice that I said that if you have to always pray for confirmation, you do not have a strong testimony. Never said that if you do it even just once that is the case. I have repeated myself throughout this thread that nobody expects you to never pray about it, and neither has anyone else. Next time, quote me accurately before making a claim. And yet I went on to provide you with scripture and the Official Declaration I from the church regarding the very things we have been discussing. C'mon, Suzie, you can't be selective with your position if you ignore the facts.

D&C 129 talks about visitation of spirits and how to discern whether they are of God or of the devil. We have been told through various church leaders that angels that have visited the earth have been both pre-mortal and post-mortal.

I heavily researched and wrote a paper about "Global Warming" and there is a reason the UN changed the name to Climate Change. 1. Human-caused carbon emissions produce a minute amount of particulates into the earth's atmosphere. 2. The earth's climate is in a constant state of fluctuation and has done so for thousands of years. 3. Trees produce three times more carbon emissions than humans do. 4. The treeline just below the arctic circle replenishes the earth's atmosphere for the entire planet by itself. 5. the ocean's temperatures have fluctuated (warmer and cooler) for centuries. 6. The number one factor in what our atmosphere does is the Sun. 7. There will always be enough natural resources on the earth for the benefit of the children of God. - Neal A. Maxwell

Condescending. That is your prerogative. You are arguing that there is the possibility that the prophet could lead us astray, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, including the Lord's own promise, but you are not accepting the probability or likelihood that it will never happen. A church leader who does so is promptly removed, which has happened. The Lord will simply not let it happen. If you choose to believe it could or will then nobody will change your mind but God.

Nope, you're putting words into my mouth. All men fall short of perfection but in the Lord's church we are lead by inspiration, which is perfect because it comes from God. The Official Declaration I addresses the issue that faced the church over polygamy. In it the promise is that The Lord will never allow the prophet(s), who speak on behalf of The Lord, will never lead church members astray. This solemn promise is affirmed by The Lord. It seems to me that you may be struggling with this doctrine, that you believe that because men are imperfect they can never lead the church the way The Lord wants. You are arguing that God cannot perfectly lead this church despite the promise in the scriptures. I would admonish you to study, ponder, and pray about it to gain a testimony of this truth. At the end of the day nobody here can convince you of that except the Spirit of God. I personally have faith and testimony that it is so.

Wow. Again I quote The Lord, "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." -D&C 1:38 If you sustain the prophet(s) as His servants then the Lord's own words should be enough. The only witness you might have to pray about is if the prophet is indeed called of God to act in His name. If you receive confirmation of that then why question the prophet after that? Have you heard anything from any prophet that is contrary to the will of The Lord? If you need further quotes or proof see the church's Official Declaration I.

A testimony does not require citations to support it. It is my personal witness, not an opinion, and it is being belittled by suggesting I back it up with quotes. It doesn't work like that. When missionaries testify of truth they do not pull out a list of quotes. When Bruce R McConkie testified at the end of his life that Jesus is the Christ, no one asked if he had proof or quotes to back it up. My testimony is my own and I do not need to justify it or support it with citations to substantiate it. To do so is to argue for argument's sake. So, sorry, I won't play along. You're also asking me to rebutt your quotes with new quotes beyond what I have already provided, which come directly from the mouth of The Lord. I'll take His word for it over the need to justify why I should question His servants the prophets.

Attacking my testimony by suggesting I need to provide quotes is unwarranted and not appreciated. All along I have quoted the scriptures about The Lord using the prophets to lead this church and we have a promise that He will not allow them to lead us astray. Why you have not been able to accept that direct promise of The Lord is hard to understand. Of course no one expects you to follow the prophet's counsel if it contradicts the will of God but we have the promise that He won't let that happen. We aren't talking about bishops and such, we are talking about those we sustain as prophets. I'll stand by the scriptures I have cited that The Lord leads and directs this church through His prophets and that he will not allow them to lead us astray. Accept it or don't it. It doesn't affect my testimony either way. Incidentally, I'm not as spiritual as you might think but I will never deny what I know to be true.

This was very well stated and this is the exact position of the church as has been affirmed by church leaders time and again. That does not mean that we are to shun gay people or any other people. We love the sinner, which is literally everyone on earth, but hate the sin. The simple fact is, as stated, that anyone who's heart is on sinful things will not inherit the celestial kingdom. Those who strive to do righteous things, whether thy have gay tendencies or not, and who concern themselves with the building up of the kingdom of heaven will be rewarded with exaltation, provided they have met the ordinances of the gospel.

Yeah, but then you started talking about specific topics and stuff. Maybe it was more curiosity then.

I'm here because a friend (Church) forced me to join. Just kidding...but not really. ha! I typically do not like to discuss religious stuff in person, though I do not rule out discussing moral things in person, which do contain gospel principles but I don't point out that they are related to gospel principles, if that makes sense. It's also something new, and it's kinda cool. :)

I can't help but look at this and think of Luke Skywalker facing the Emperor. Emperor: "If you do not join us, you will be destroyed!" Then he zaps him with Force Lightning.

That is a lesson about following the Lord's direct commandments. Again, we have been promised by the Lord Himself that He will not allow a church leader to lead its members away. I have faith and a testimony that it is true. To use a scripture in the Old Testament to justify not following the prophet in contrary to both modern day scripture and the promise of the Lord given to us. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

The Scouting program, when done the right way, is the greatest tool to teach young men in and out of the church. President Hinckley's father was part of a group that investigated the Boy Scouts in 1912, and he reported to the church leadership that there was no other program available to the church to increase the spirituality of young men than the Boy Scout program. I have seen how this works first-hand. It has been commented that the problem in LDS troops is that it is too LDS. Baden-Powell said that if you take God out of Scouting, there is no Scouting. It is my testimony that he was inspired by God to start the Boy Scouts because of the strength young men would gain by participating in it than any other organization. I have witnessed and been part of events and activities that have changed the lives of young men and prepared them for their missions better than anything else. I did not have good experiences in Scouting when I was young because none of my leaders were properly trained, nor did they have testimonies of the program. The Scouting program IS the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood. You take away Scouting or refuse to properly support the program and you take away its purpose to fulfill the mission of the Aaronic Priesthood. Church leader after church leader has endorsed this program, that there is no substitute. When I first heard about the decision to allow openly gay youth to participate in Scouting I was upset. Then I listened to the church's response, that we will continue to use Scouting as a tool to bring young men closer to Christ. There will be negative consequences to the new rule but if done properly, Scouting will continue to be a great tool for the spiritual growth of all young men in and out of the church.

I had a hard enough time being married to my ex-wife, I can't imagine the difficulty of having more than one in the afterlife.

It may not fall under the CRA or the ADA but it certainly is being argued in the highest courts and state legislatures, including Utah's, are bringing bills to vote on such things. Ask Phil Robertson what happens when you say something, albeit accurate, about homosexuality.

You just summed up my marriage. I was responsible to be spiritual for the both of us, which is impossible, of course. While her intentions may not have been to corrupt me, they certainly were not to uplift me. I'd say it was definitely about her own desires. I have known a lot of people who are not LDS but who have a definite glow about them, and I am attracted to women who have it. I can now usually tell the difference. Was too naive when I met my ex-wife.

That's an argument made for argument's sake. You said to "WANT" it is sin. I said that entertaining thoughts is the same as wanting it. How is that different?

Perhaps you may not know about the attack on Christians in the U.S. then, who are clearly the majority. This past Christmas saw a new level of anti-Christmas acts being performed and enacted all over the country. The very small minority is forcing the majority to stop practicing their religious ceremonies in public. How is that part of the democratic process? Again, pointing out our differences in no way brings people together. All are equal in the eyes of God, whether black, white, Christian, Jew, etc, we are all the same. There will not be any gay pride parades in heaven, nor will there be any celebrations that only certain people will appreciate. I do not buy into this notion that people need to hold special events in order to vilify themselves and to justify their lifestyles.

We're not talking about a court, we're talking about the law of God. You can't quote the church but then choose to dismiss gospel principles. Entertaining thoughts = wanting to do it. We're saying the same thing. I did see the blue quote you posted. I guess I wasn't clear enough about the church not wanting to complicate things. The scriptures are clear, and the church knows it. What they are saying is that if a person has tendencies but doesn't act on them, whether physical or mental, it isn't sin. I agree with that. But, if the act is only mental (wants, entertain, etc) it still IS sin. I'm not seeing the grey area.

True, but to entertain the thought, as I pointed out, is the same as "dwelling on it" as you stated. If I look at a woman and think she is good-looking there is nothing wrong with that. I am merely recognizing what I find attractive. But if I look at a woman and start to think of her in a sexual manner, then I am entertaining improper, lustful thoughts, and that is the same as the physical act of sin. If she is my wife, well, I'm allowed to think that but I should still be respectful. :)