sgallan

You enjoy being the exception to the rule, don't you? LOL.... I am just another pea in the pod in my family and peer group. Lets see.... my mom and dad didn't cohabitate. They got divorced after 20 years. My dad and step-mom did cohabitate and are 25 years and going strong. My brothers first marraige he didn't.... quick divorce. Second, he did... going good. My other brother never married his first long termer. Cohabitated with the second. Even had a child out of wedlock. Finally got around to getting married a few years later. Another close family friends have been together for 22 years and still haven't married. I co-habitated with the addict. We probably won't make it this time because of the child.... but survived other relapses and seperations. My mom cohabitated with both of her following husbands and those marraiges lasted until death did them part. Cousins.... same. I can't think of a single member of my family, nor peer group, at least a hundred couplings- save two sets of Uncles and Aunts - who didn't.

If we got serious about the huge social costs of premarital sex and cohabitation, I can envision it becoming something weak people do. The transition might not be as extreme as what happened with smoking, but I'm hopeful we could greatly reduce current rates. I dunno. I can see it working for the young. Even being a good idea. But I'll tell you what..... I have no plans on marrying again. Nor do I plan on being celibate. So for me it will probably be cohabitation. Once bitten twice shy I guess....

Does that stat tell you what percentage of crimes are commited by those people. "Those people"...... ouch.

Prison is not punishment - Those that are sent to prison are more likely to commit a crime and not likely to reform or change their ways. In fact there are even some that commit crimes just to get back to prison. Prison is an inconvenience for some but is not enough of punishment to make any real difference. LOL..... okay I won't bother you anymore. As my daughter would say... you are whack. FWIW..... you probably think the same about me. :)

1. As a culture, more strongly discourage premarital sex and cohabitation. Genie is out of the bottle. How do you get it back in? 2. Churches need to strengthen their men's groups and programming. Additionally, leaders may want to work at ways in which general church programming can be made more appealing to men. Often what happens is that since most attenders are women, the programming gradually becomes "feminine." When men do come, they feel awkward. 3. Parachurch organizations, like Promise Keepers, should be supported by church leaderships. Other forms of small group meetings for men to support each other, and be frank with each other, can be powerful. These two are sort of the samething. What about the 40-50% of the people who don't attend church? 4. When the worst happens, real men pay their child support, honor visitation promises and times, and try to bolster their children through the visits, not compete with or demean the mom. Why does the mom always get the kids? I am a way better parent than my wife.

FWIW Traveler - Your draconian ways are pretty vicious. I suspect you rather like the way they do things in Saudi Arabia and used to in Afganistan. I rather like your argumentation though. It is that kind of logic which is why the death penalty is fading, and the number of people actually being given the death penalty, and being put to death, is going down. And actually has me reconsidering whether I am for the death penalty..... except in the most extreme cases (Dalmer and the other serialists).

GET A CLUE - if they are wrongly convicted the problem is with the process not the punishment. You cannot fix something that is broke if you refuse to do anything about the problem and go nuts over the result. The real problem is wrongly convicting - the problem is not with punishment!!! Dah!! I am not for punishing murderers. You mean life in prison is not punishment? Don't be an idiot. Here is where your logic if flawed...... life in prison is punishment. So again.... using your parameters I am against the dealth penalty. But life in prison works. Until you can figure that out, then conversing with you is a waste of time.

Mistakes happen all the time - I just do not see that your suggestion can make it better or keep innocent people from being killed. Then using your parameters I am against the death penalty. I'll probably start voting that way as well.

I do not care what religion anyone is - if the breakdown of the family continues - this society will not last another generation. Come 2100 there will not be a USA. I am not sure I'd want to live in the USA that you envision in any event. So this would work.

So every drunk driver that results in death of someone innocent is a murder. Every fatal automobile accident - we can call the driver that caused the accident a murder. Every death that occurs of an innocent person - who ever is connected to the cause of that death that could have maybe prevented it is a murder? Here a good one - a doctor trying to save a life but the innocent person dies under his knife on the operating table that doctor is a murder? I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune if you were the one wrongly sentenced to death for a murder you didn't commit. But it is pretty easy to take a different view in your ivory tower, eh? Say, what is your position on abortion. I'd think you'd be pro-choice since you don't seem to have an issue with innocents being put to death.

As for the quality of education the more involvement the Federal Government has had the worse education has been. As of today education in the USA is the worse of all the industrialized nations. 10 years ago the USA produced the top engineers in the world now the top engineering schools are in Asia and the top engineers in schools in the USA are Asian because American schools produce an inferior product. Only primary education. Our secondary education is still the best in the world. And it is our secondary education that won't put up with mythology in it's science programs. You'd lose your accredation. As far as test scores..... are those actually better educated (probably in many cases). Or just better test takers (for sure). I home school now partly because I think this country is more interested on delevoping good test takers then good and life long learners.

or are we better if we let 999 murders and rapers off scott free in our society to do what they do best? I didn't say that. I said you don't put them to death unless you are 100% certain. Because if they are innocent that is what is known as murder.

I do have to add though..... for those against abortion, bout for Capital Punishment..... no matter how you spin it.... I do not consider you as having any moral high ground if you do not hold to the 100% standard.

Do you think that it should be allowed? If it is 100% certain that the killer did it - 99.9999999% isn't good enough - then I can see it. However, given that people on death roll have been found innocent through DNA suggests that we don't hold to that 100% standard. Therefore - like Illinois did - I can see the rationale for a moratorium on the death penalty until we can assure innocents are not put to death.

Whether evolution is widely accepted or not, doesnt make argument for the case of the Federal Judiciary making up the minds of the local school boards.They should stay out of the decisions on this matter. This is one of those situations where they do have an obligation to rule against the school boards. It has something to do with that pesky document called the Constitution. Secondly, evolution is widely accepted by whom? Name all the people you think you know who accept this theory as Science as you put it. Hmm..... how about every single fully accredited College and University science curriculum in the United States of America for starters.... for starters. I am guessing education was lacking?

Can you give and example please? Well if you take the Noah thing literally then mass extermination is generally considered pretty bad.

A self-existent, trancendant God had to be in the picture. He is the only explanation. SomeONE had to make the decision to start it all. Err.... that is a logical fallacy. Just because one does not understand something is not proof of a specific diety named as God. Now you could just reject Him and remain a traitor. I am familiar with the evangelical God. NOt a very nice diety. I would rather be a traitor to this particular god. It's not a nice one. Fairly vicious actually. You can remind yourself that all of this is mythology, but you wouldn't really know that would you? No, you don't know at all, yet you insist it is so. I can't 'prove' anything. Not even my existance. But try this one on for size.... try to disprove the invisible fire breathing Dragon living underneath my house. Why shouldn't I just worship this Dragon. He is nicer than your god. Isn't that what so many people are calliing "faith" these days? I am too smart to fall for that trap. Look at my handle. When you figure out why you deny the existance of the thousands of other possible gods, and various things that are supernatural, then you can understand why I deny the existance of yours.

I'm sure there's more to you Deism than this issue, but thought I'd throw out an obvious solution. Err.... I am an athiest. And that is just one reason. The biggest reason I live in a secular way, and raise a child in that same way, is I see no additional value than what I am already doing, and several things which I do not consider valuable.

Oh come sgallan! You were right on the verge of theism...of believing in intelligent spirituality, and Red's apologetic tipped you back towards Deism! You're trying to making feel bad, aren't you? I seriously doubt that Red's posts had much impact on you one way or the other. As Snow would say, take responsiblity for your own actions, beliefs, and spirituality. The history is..... when I was about 13 I asked "what about the dinosaurs". It was a Southern Baptist church. The answers didn't make sense. So I ended up being agnostic for the next 26 years. Then I attempted Mormonism. It seemed a little more rational with a nicer version of a posited God. But what I found was the same sort of anti-science, literal global flood mythology type nonsense. I think it was an Ensign articlein Dec2000. Well in such a top down organization, I figured any group that could get it so wrong.... while supposedly have the gifts of the HG.... wasn't worth listening to in a religious sense. So that was the end of that. Basically I have been and godless heathen for all except one year of the last 32. Even in that one year I think I had more doubt than belief but I did try. Anyhow, the science issues are one big reason why I prefer a secular household and education for my child.

Red is an evagelical critic, not a Mormon. My bad.

Indeed. Brutal.

Those Miners are alive. Unbelievable. Rare there is a happy ending in a mine explosion story. Dang!

How compassionate are you towards the "parents" of those who take their eye of their kids while they drown in a swimming pool. If I take my kid rock climbing (yes we rock climb) and I do not have her properly protected..... she dies.... what do you think of me? Why don't you give you kids, or grankids, something sharp to play with, and get back to me.

Just Looking _ There is an awful lot of things in the Bible that - if you or I did them - that would be considered as bad and evil as imaginable. Is it because it is God, that makes it alright? Do as I say..... not as I do? Do you see why the skeptic like myself might be a bit incredulous at such a notion?

"When I talked to the police, they said they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and it's sad because they didn't know the area. They don't know the area. They just go." she said. Why not know the area? These are kids. Often clueless ones raised in a sheltered middle class environment. There are some areas, during certain times, or any time, where you just don't go there. Who are the people in charge of those kids? Because frankly, it sounds like they screwed up bigtime. As sad as this is I am more PO'd at some idiot leaders.