omegaseamaster75

This may be the worse advice ever....so your kids should be your house keepers, and you should withhold intimacy until he falls in line? Of course its her job to make sure that the house is clean and that dinner is made. She is a stay at home mom. Maybe he is doing her to many favors by getting out of bed every day going to work to provide for his family. I am not saying that he shouldn't help out around the house of course he should, but jeez.....

It is human nature to be judgmental, I am not sure how we can avoid it. Darvin asked a great question, doesn't it cut both ways?

You stepped in it with this one Duff, Discussion of blood atonement in the abstract theory of a perfect theocracy, and the actual practice of it are 2 different things....... There may have been some crazy wackos who took things to far, but no evidence of church involvement.

Yeah I don't remember there being a sustaining vote by the general body of the church on this one, therefore not doctrine. It's policy and subject to change

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I mentioned this before, your barking up the wrong tree here. In Duffs defense I haven't seen one instance were he said that we shouldn't follow the prophets counsel. He is saying that we need to know for ourselves if it is right or wrong. I do not think that he is undermining the teachings of the first presidency. They teach good things more so now than ever. He and I may disagree on how we follow those teachings, but that is beside the point. He is saying as I have often said...they are not infallible. Let's have some perspective guys. The church has had to effect policy changes to past teachings these are changes that have occurred in our lifetime. Things that were once considered inspired words are no longer considered such. For crying out loud Brigham Young taught that people lived on the moon among many other things. Why if someone tries to have some perspective on the hows and whys of what we teach is he piled up on?

If the point is that we should obey the word of wisdom in its entirety I agree, if your point is that the bishop should know what my increase is, or be able to make a fat mans guess and grill me appropriately I disagree.

Sure I've been to tithing settlement, many times. I am sure my Bishop can do basic math, but the question is 10% of what? How could he possibly know what your increase is? How you calculate it or what it should be unless he is also your accountant and even then you might disagree. Should he look to see what kind of car your driving, the cloths you wear and then look at your contributions and decide that it wasn't enough? No not likely

Estradling, I don;t know if you are or have ever been a bishop. I am not nor have been. I think that when tithing comes up its either a yes or a no. Others can elaborate. I can't see a situation in which you are questioned further about it because that would delve into specifically how you should pay Gross/net/income less expenses/ whats included whats not, what about retirement income 401k, IRAS, social security, gains and losses etc, etc?

The current policy on the WoW is pretty cut and dry, you will not hear any arguments from me on that front. The church is very ambiguous in their wording of the law of tithing, but that is subject for another discussion, Barring some hesitation form me or questions about tithing I dare my bishop to question me on my calculation.

I've been down this road Duff....and I have a warning post to my credit because of it. let the dog lie, your not going to get anywhere....... As a side note, we can look at the law of tithing as a perfect example of the leaders of the church allowing us to decide the interpretation of the law. People will go back and forth on as to what is and what is not considered a full tithe, but the bottom line is that it is between you, God and the bishop (and the bishop will only ask you if your a full tithe payer or not).

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I can't speak for Duff.....he will have to answer that one

Well we are going to just have to let God sort out my deceitful Grandfathers coffee drinking issues......I'm on grandpas side..I am sure God will have a grandfather policy in place since they passed the prohibition in his life time...anyone born after 1921 you better fall in line. When we get to final judgement if drinking coffee and a couple of white lies are all we have to worry about, I'd say we are in better shape than most. You can never tell form the outside what someones inner struggles/demons/sins are, like many have said when we get to final judgement we will be shocked by who made it and more shocked by who didn't

I don't think that Duff questions the authority of the Prophet, I maybe wrong and he can correct me if I am. What he is saying is that our religion has more nuance than what we hear in Sunday school, and what we indoctrinate our kids with in primary

Fact of the matter is that they did know about it and allowed it to continue. I'm not saying that exceptions should be made....the rules are the rules, but as we look at the evolution of the WOW we shouldn't turn a blind eye to history. We are several generations removed from the first implementations of the current interpretation of the WOW. There is no excuse now for not being in full compliance, and those that were not aka my grandfather, and others I personally think will be judged fairly.

So an Apostle get a pass?

James E Talmage could have stopped smoking cigars......

I'm not supporting anyone whatever someone decides to do that is between them God and their bishop. Historical context is important in every aspect of life.

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So here is the deal, the WOW is policy of the church not doctrine. We see attempts by modern leaders to justify the lack of enforcement the first 80 or so years of the church and this makes some feel better about it. Because it is policy and not doctrine we have seen the evolution of that policy and what is and what is not allowed. My grandfather who was born in 1910 and raised on a farm was a closet coffee drinker his whole life. He had to be because once they made it question to be eligible to enter the temple he had to lie about it.He was a good man and God will judge him fairly. Historically the fact that the full enforcement of the WOW by Heber J Grant coincided with prohibition is not small coincidence Surely no one here thinks that James E Talmage quit smoking cigars after this declaration and he was an apostle....

The Beehive, Clasped hands, Inverted star, The all seeing eye, the horizontal angel, the sun stone, the compass and the square, ...the list goes on and on. Look at our temples. In particular Navauoo and Salt Lake. The symbolism is everywhere.

Shocking to the unprepared. This includes most members....

the correlation between freemasonry symbols and Mormon symbolism is shocking. Just look at the Nauvoo Temple of the Salt lake temple. Like many have stated, Most people don't study their history and are uninformed. The truth hits them hard. The truth of the fullness of the gospel, was spread out, a little here and a little there, and a little to be revealed to JS. Bits and pieces of truth scattered about and lost during years of darkness. JS brought it all together for us.

this is short sighted, look at your life and the what you control. Make good decisions and he will be there