Josiah

I believe that if I follow God's commandments then I will maximize my individual potential to live a happy and prosperous life. This is not merely theoretical for me. I have actual experience in this area.
 
I obey God and strive to keep His commandments because I lived in hell and was living in hell; I was in a dark abyss and was miserable; I begged God for mercy and in His kindness and grace He poured out mercy upon me; He saved me from hell and saved my life! I have great gratitude and love for the Lord because of what He has done for me!
 
So, I am motivated by my love for Jesus Christ and because of His atonement. At this point in my life as I strive to keep God's commandments sincerely and with real intent, my life and the life of my family improves. Some of the improvements are material but the ones that matter are the spiritual improvements. However, I don't expect anything from God because of my righteous acts.
 
-Finrock

I would say being clean is necessary but not sufficient. And indeed the atonement and gospel plan involve much more then simply cleansing.  
The Lord wants us to be people of strength and power, not just weak beings who must be continually cleansed. We must become holy.

From an Evangelical perspective here is a simplified definition.  I'm assuming it might be different than the LDS view.  I can post more on it later if you would like. from http://www.more-free-online-sermons.com/justification-and-sanctification.html
 
 

I think you know the answer to that one, Finrock. 

Stephen O. Smoot reviews the new Institute Manual on Church History, which includes Plural marriage, and many other issues of interest. It also has a section on handling one's doubts.
 
Smoot's article can be read here at the MormonInterpreter.
 
 
Teacher's manual is online here.
 
 
 

I feel like it really comes down to that sentence there. Blue's point that God's blessings are primarily spiritual is spot on, it's just that you can't change the spiritual without also affecting the temporal. The commandments and principles that we have been given, when applied and internalized, will naturally bless us temporally also. Eternal truths and principles work everywhere - they are universal - so living the gospel in all aspects of our lives will also ultimately bless us in all aspects of our lives. And the fact that we even have those principles is a gift from God, so wouldn't the results of them be His gift to those who apply them?
 
But the spiritual blessing is what Christ is more concerned about, as blue has said, so we shouldn't be surprised when God allows some of us, like Job, to go through economic or other trials as a means of helping us understand some of these eternal truths, regardless of our righteousness or wickedness. But if we trust Him, it works out in the long run even if that's not in this life for some.
 
Blue, the talk you quoted from in the original post strikes me as having a message not all that different from these verses in Matthew 6. If we're doing what Christ wants us to be doing, He'll take care of us.
 

From D&C 130:
 

 
 
So when we obey eternal laws and principles, we are blessed accordingly. As your quote says, when we are obedient to His direction, He blesses us, including with temporal blessings.
 
Except when He doesn't.
 
The trouble with trying to use something like level of wealth as a general sign for level of righteousness is that God doesn't deal with all His children in exactly the same way, because we're all different. Job was righteous and, perhaps in large part as a consequence of his righteousness, he became wealthy. And then his wealth (and health, family, etc.) were taken from him for a time. His friends took this as a sign of Job's wickedness, but they were unjustified in doing so. Eventually Job learned and grew from the experience, and his wealth was restored. This is just one example - many are called upon to actively sacrifice prosperity for righteousness. Some even give their lives for the gospel, and by extension they also sacrifice 100% of their material possessions.
 
On the flip side, wickedness is often used as a means to obtain wealth. Think Pharisees, secret combinations from the Book of Mormon, etc. etc. Not to mention modern examples. Is this wealth sustainable? Of course not. But if we used wealth as a sign to discern righteousness, we would end up off base in judging a lot of people.
 
My personal thoughts on D&C 130 and the quote you gave are something like this. Obedience to true principles of the gospel will, in general, lead to increased productivity and prosperity, both spiritually and temporally. But individual circumstance and trial can put a roadblock on this. Disobedience to true principles of the gospel will, in general, lead to spiritual and temporal ruin. But sometimes the illusion can be sustained for a time - maybe even a lifetime. God puts spiritual blessings first. He will prosper His righteous followers, but sometimes temporal prosperity needs to be sacrificed for greater spiritual blessings for the individual.
 
The true blessings that come from obedience are the change within the person. That person then has greater capacity to produce wealth based on righteous principles, assuming he or she is not called upon to sacrifice that in one way or another through a trial, calling, or a requirement to direct their efforts elsewhere. Therefore:
 
 
I feel like it's more about change from the inside, act rather than be acted upon, etc. And if God needs to teach us those eternal principles through a trial which involves poverty and which may last a lifetime, I don't think he'll hesitate, BUT that doesn't negate the eternal truthfulness of the promise. So it really isn't that useful as a "sign" in the sense of judging others or even ourselves based off of it.
 
I do agree with Vort that a better place to see this "sign" in operation is by looking at larger groups and communities. True "Zion" communities, while rare, have always seemed to do pretty well temporally, haven't they?   Even this can be deceptive though. Outward appearance of prosperity can be temporarily maintained even while the inner core that generates true wealth is decaying due to wickedness, even in a larger community or a nation. And sometimes an entire people needs to be tried, like the people of Alma who were briefly brought into bondage by the Lamanites and the people of Amulon.
 
So, my opinion: obedience brings spiritual change within us, which gives us the qualities that naturally allow us to produce more material abundance - if God doesn't have something better in mind.

I feel like it really comes down to that sentence there. Blue's point that God's blessings are primarily spiritual is spot on, it's just that you can't change the spiritual without also affecting the temporal. The commandments and principles that we have been given, when applied and internalized, will naturally bless us temporally also. Eternal truths and principles work everywhere - they are universal - so living the gospel in all aspects of our lives will also ultimately bless us in all aspects of our lives. And the fact that we even have those principles is a gift from God, so wouldn't the results of them be His gift to those who apply them?
 
But the spiritual blessing is what Christ is more concerned about, as blue has said, so we shouldn't be surprised when God allows some of us, like Job, to go through economic or other trials as a means of helping us understand some of these eternal truths, regardless of our righteousness or wickedness. But if we trust Him, it works out in the long run even if that's not in this life for some.
 
Blue, the talk you quoted from in the original post strikes me as having a message not all that different from these verses in Matthew 6. If we're doing what Christ wants us to be doing, He'll take care of us.
 

From D&C 130:
 

 
 
So when we obey eternal laws and principles, we are blessed accordingly. As your quote says, when we are obedient to His direction, He blesses us, including with temporal blessings.
 
Except when He doesn't.
 
The trouble with trying to use something like level of wealth as a general sign for level of righteousness is that God doesn't deal with all His children in exactly the same way, because we're all different. Job was righteous and, perhaps in large part as a consequence of his righteousness, he became wealthy. And then his wealth (and health, family, etc.) were taken from him for a time. His friends took this as a sign of Job's wickedness, but they were unjustified in doing so. Eventually Job learned and grew from the experience, and his wealth was restored. This is just one example - many are called upon to actively sacrifice prosperity for righteousness. Some even give their lives for the gospel, and by extension they also sacrifice 100% of their material possessions.
 
On the flip side, wickedness is often used as a means to obtain wealth. Think Pharisees, secret combinations from the Book of Mormon, etc. etc. Not to mention modern examples. Is this wealth sustainable? Of course not. But if we used wealth as a sign to discern righteousness, we would end up off base in judging a lot of people.
 
My personal thoughts on D&C 130 and the quote you gave are something like this. Obedience to true principles of the gospel will, in general, lead to increased productivity and prosperity, both spiritually and temporally. But individual circumstance and trial can put a roadblock on this. Disobedience to true principles of the gospel will, in general, lead to spiritual and temporal ruin. But sometimes the illusion can be sustained for a time - maybe even a lifetime. God puts spiritual blessings first. He will prosper His righteous followers, but sometimes temporal prosperity needs to be sacrificed for greater spiritual blessings for the individual.
 
The true blessings that come from obedience are the change within the person. That person then has greater capacity to produce wealth based on righteous principles, assuming he or she is not called upon to sacrifice that in one way or another through a trial, calling, or a requirement to direct their efforts elsewhere. Therefore:
 
 
I feel like it's more about change from the inside, act rather than be acted upon, etc. And if God needs to teach us those eternal principles through a trial which involves poverty and which may last a lifetime, I don't think he'll hesitate, BUT that doesn't negate the eternal truthfulness of the promise. So it really isn't that useful as a "sign" in the sense of judging others or even ourselves based off of it.
 
I do agree with Vort that a better place to see this "sign" in operation is by looking at larger groups and communities. True "Zion" communities, while rare, have always seemed to do pretty well temporally, haven't they?   Even this can be deceptive though. Outward appearance of prosperity can be temporarily maintained even while the inner core that generates true wealth is decaying due to wickedness, even in a larger community or a nation. And sometimes an entire people needs to be tried, like the people of Alma who were briefly brought into bondage by the Lamanites and the people of Amulon.
 
So, my opinion: obedience brings spiritual change within us, which gives us the qualities that naturally allow us to produce more material abundance - if God doesn't have something better in mind.

Okay, I'll bite.
 
First, I agree with Vort that the statement is true as a general principle applying to communities.  That said--there are enough exceptions that I wouldn't use wealth or poverty to judge the righteousness of either a community or an individual.  Many, many factors can prevent otherwise righteous individuals or societies from becoming wealthy.  Similarly, societies in decay may still enjoy great wealth left over from a period when they followed Divine principles closely than they do at present.
 
How is material abundance related to obedience?
 
I'm not convinced it's quite a situation of God looking at a nation, saying "You worship idols, so DOOM ON YOU!!!".  Rather, I think certain activities just have natural consequences that will affect one's own and one's neighbors' economic well-being.  Societies of self-centered individuals will not tend to do the sort of long-term planning or sacrifice across generations that leads to stable, prosperous nations over the long term.  Violent societies will not enjoy sufficiently long periods of peace to allow commerce to thrive.  Kleptocratic or dishonest societies will find that they can't establish a steady economy, because being a worker/economic producer is a sucker's game.  Sexually promiscuous societies will get unstable family structures--with all the economic problems that entails--and find themselves saddled with a large number of unwanted children.
 
Also, I'm going to issue a challenge to you:
 
1.  Assume that Dean Larsen, rather than being an ogre or a shyster with dollar signs in his eyes, is actually a decent fellow who's trying to inspire people to be their best selves and live in a Christlike way.
2.  Reread his talk.  The whole talk.
3.  Why do you think he said what he said?

Hey everyone! I found this forum just a few days ago. I've always enjoyed online discussions because I love to learn from others' perspectives (easier for me when I can go back and reread what I and others have said). Anyway, I decided I'd see if I could find an lds-based forum to have discussions in more of a gospel context than you usually find online. So one google search later, here I am!
 
Let's see, about me...
 
I'm probably younger than most on this forum. I just finished serving a mission a couple months ago and will be starting college in fall. I grew up as a member. I'm a big reader, and a lifelong fan of the scriptures, as you might have guessed from my avatar. The 'application' part of scripture study has always been a bit more challenging, but I'm trying!
 
I don't claim to know much, but I'll probably put in my two cents here anyway.    I'm excited to learn from all of your perspectives and insights! Looking forward to getting to know you all.