laronius

That's kind of what I was implying @The Folk Prophet for the normal day to day sins I think the Lord is pretty frank in just forgiving us if we are sincere but when it comes to the more grievous sins I think the Lord wants to see us make good (to one degree or another) before he extends forgiveness. But this brings up another question. Just what does it mean for the Lord to forgive us? Does forgiveness entail a complete restoration of ALL blessings lost through the sin or can the Lord forgive us (in the sense that Christ has paid for it) and yet withhold those blessings until we have qualified for them? I would normally use the Spirit as a gauge in deciding when I'm forgiven. But does that mean a person under disciplinary action can never have peace until the action is concluded or can the Lord forgive the person and yet leave the disciplinary action in force to help reinforce the needed change?

Agreed, but I don't think attraction can be considered a behavior. While there is much we do not understand about this subject (the Church doesn't have an official position on how SSA happens) I do think that a person can so pervert their natural affections so as to skew their attractions but for most in the Church I don't think that is the case. Perhaps nurturing has something to do with it but why does one child out of a large family experience it and not the others? I do think that many do not make a conscious decision to be gay. I personally don't have a problem with viewing it as just another thorn in the flesh some are called to bear. If that is not the case and a person through the atonement of Christ can change their attraction then I would think the Lord would be a little more forth coming in how that works. If its not a problem caused by sin then I don't think simply being righteous or obedient alone would change it.

@pwrfrk In your post you do a decent job of describing the mechanics of repentance but ultimately at the heart of repentance is change. Change in how we view things and a change in how we feel. We can go through all the steps you listed but if there isn't a change going on inside us there is actually very little hope of lasting change in our choices and that is what the Lord is looking for. Now in terms of forgiveness, we are commanded to forgive everyone whether they go through those steps or not. But exactly when does the Lord forgive us? That I think is the question. In many instances the things we repent of are likely to be repeated at some point. This is because the natural man is not so easy to overcome. So if the Lord in his omniscience knows we will repeat the sin and yet forgives us then a complete forsaking of a sin isn't the test of whether forgiveness is granted (obviously we must intend to forsake the sin but God knows whether we actually will). But I don't think there is a simple answer for all instances though having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is critical. In his great mercy and omniscience the Lord knows what we need to experience and learn to help bring about the needed changes and he grants forgiveness accordingly.

In the Law of Moses the Lord made it very clear just how seriously he viewed observance of the Sabbath day. But during Jesus' time he saw that observance of the Sabbath had been relegated to a strict code of do's and dont's. He found that even though the religious rulers were really steadfast in observance of the day they had lost sight of its true purpose and therefore were not keeping it holy. And I think that's the crux of it all. There are certain things that as a rule we should and shouldn't do on the Sabbath but the Lord would rather us focus on it's purpose, a day of holiness, and then work backwards from there in determining how to best make it so.

There is definitely a message for all and I think it is found in the context of the other two parables given. 1. A sheep wanders off and the shepherd goes off and finds it. We don't know where to place the blame. Was the shepherd negligent or was the sheep especially rebellious? We don't know. But the general principles of saving those that are lost are set forth. 2. A woman loses her coin and searches for it. In this instance the blame lays squarely on the woman. She was indeed negligent but upon finding the coin missing she repents and does all she can to restore the coin to its rightful place. Because the fault lay with the women it was within her power to seek out the coin and make things right. 3. A prideful son demands and then wastes his inheritance and then returns. In this case the blame lay squarely with the "lost" son. As such the father could only wait and pray until the son was willing to humble himself and return, at which point the father ran to him and assisted him the rest of the way back. I think the element of the second son was added into this parable to point out to the righteous that whatever the conditions of someone being lost and then being found our response should always be one of joy. I think its a common perception that when we view someone stray and then come back to the fold we think that they somehow "got away" with something. They were able to indulge in the fun that we the "righteous" are denied and then come back and enjoy the blessings of the gospel as well. The reality is that people don't return unless they have found their "going astray" as not worth it.

We also need to remember that while all the doctrines of the gospel are important they are not all of equal value in terms of where our focus needs to be. The doctrines taught at General Conference should receive extra focus on our part for the next 6 months. The need to study and implement the things spoken about are paramount to our spiritual salvation right now. When the Church comes out with a special document such as the one on the Family, I see that as a generational focus that needs to be held long term. The same can be said about the brethren's statement about Christ they came out with 17 years ago. I find it especially interesting that even though Pres Monson didn't speak this conference his admonition about studying the Book of Mormon was repeated by at least three different speakers this time around. I see that as the Lord saying that Pres Monson's words are still in force for another 6 months. My guess is it was not as well received by the general membership as it should have been. I think I am guilty of that myself but now I will do better.

To echo yours and @LiterateParakeet points this statement in the proclamation says it all: We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. The family is what the gospel is all about and Satan knows it. I think there is also danger within the Church of desensitization of the younger people when it comes to the world's idea that family can be what ever you want it to be.

The reference to Pres Benson about tests made me curious exactly what he had to say about it. Turns out he was talking about the test of prosperity and Satan lulling the saints into a state of apathy and inaction. After quoting Brigham Young's quote about the saints growing rich and kicking themselves out of the Church Pres Benson said: While there may be many tests we face the test of prosperity may be the Achilles heel that along with its accompanying symptom of apathy that makes many saints vulnerable to whatever else Satan and society throws at us.

@CommanderSouth In the Lectures on Faith Joseph Smith made the following statement: Lecture 6:7: "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation". This is a critical principle to understand. Faith is a gift from God and comes, at least in part, in response to our willingness to sacrifice. When you were being taught the gospel there were certain commitments you had to make, certain changes you had to make in how you lived your life that were required for baptism. As you began to make these changes (in other words sacrificing your will to God's) you were blessed with the faith necessary to take that step into the waters of baptism. But for faith to continue to grow more sacrifices must be made. Perhaps there are bad habits to be forsaken, commitments of time to your calling or service that need to be made, attitudes towards certain people or principles that need adjustment, or any number of things that we all face in the gospel. If increased faith is what you are looking for I would strongly suggest you consider what you can sacrifice to God for it and then act accordingly. The greater the sacrifice the greater the response from God will be.

I think you would agree @Lehite that God is not sexist. So the real question you should be inquiring of God is whether the different roles of men and women in the Church have come by way of his direction. If so then you will know that the differences serve a purpose in his plan. But as with any question we ask God we must be willing to accept the answer wholeheartedly and without reservation.

It's interesting how since the beginning of the Church (even the ancient Church) members kept thinking that the Second Coming was just around the corner, that the events taking place in their day totally matched the prophecies and that the world was just ripe for a barbecuing. And yet here we are, not too far from the 200th anniversary of the founding of the Church and life just keeps plugging along. The world just keeps getting worse and yet we are able to live (relatively speaking) normal lives. Kind of makes you wonder exactly what that tipping point is when it just can't continue like it always has.

This post is an offshoot of the TEST thread but I wanted to address a specific "test" that I think will prove to be an increasing threat among members of the Church. In the early days of the Church there was much said about the role false spirits would play both in the Church and the world at large. The Lord was very vocal, through the prophet Joseph Smith, in His warnings about not being deceived by false spirits or by those who themselves had been deceived. Section 50 of the D&C came as a result of this concern. Other later prophets spoke about their concern that members of the Church were being deceived as well. 2000 years ago the Lord spoke about false Christs who come among us in the latter-days with the intent to deceive. Here is a small sampling of what earlier prophets have said: Joseph F Smith - There has, perhaps, never been a period in the history of the Church when the delusive spirits that are abroad in the world, deceiving the children of men, were more active than they are and have been for the last few years. I have never in my recollection heard of so many pretended prophets and revelations, special messages, missions and manifestations to various individuals, as have come to my notice within the last few months or perhaps years. Some claim that they are in constant communication with angels, others that they have received a direct command from God to accomplish a certain mission, others claim to be Christ, and therefore assume the right to dictate and direct the labors of the Presidency and Twelve, and undertake to correct and set them right and to show them wherein they lack inspiration, etc., and wherein it is necessary that a strong arm should be raised up in order to steady the ark of Zion. http://jod.mrm.org/24/187 Brigham Young - It was revealed to me in the commencement of this Church, that the Church would spread, prosper, grow and extend, and that in proportion to the spread of the Gospel among the nations of the earth, so would the power of Satan rise. It was told you here that Brother Joseph warned the Elders of Israel against false spirits. It was revealed to me that if the people did not receive the spirit of revelation that God had sent for the salvation of the world, they would receive false spirits, and would have revelation. Men would have revelation, women would have revelation, the priest in the pulpit and the deacon under the pulpit would have revelation, and the people would have revelation enough to damn the whole nation, and nations of them, unless they would hearken to the voice of God. It was not only revealed to Joseph, but to your humble servant, that false spirits would be as prevalent and as common among the inhabitants of the earth as we now see them. http://jod.mrm.org/13/274 Joseph Smith - One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God... Who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God, so no man knows the spirit of the devil, and his power and influence, but by possessing intelligence which is more than human... A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. TPJS 203-205 We hear of such things happening in the Church in our day but on a pretty small scale it seems. It makes me wonder if this phenomena will become more pronounced as time goes on and will form the basis for much of the testing that will take place. Thoughts?

Who has time to add temple attendance to their Sunday schedule? With all the things that we ought to be doing on Sunday already I wouldn't think there would be time for that too.

If people choose to react this way what does that have to do with having charity for them?

I think this is why charity is so key to our salvation. It looks past all differences and sees the thing common to us all, our relationship as brothers and sisters and as sons and daughters of God. When we do this our responses to differences in beliefs and attitudes will always be motivated out of love for the person. So I guess the unity we should seek is that as ought to be found in a family, where love and compassion prevail despite differences that may arise. Yet another reason for Satan to corrupt the definition of family.

I think I get what you are saying now. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are alluding to the false narrative that some put forth that once a consensus is reached by a majority of people (though often it actually hasn't but they want you to believe it has) that it becomes the duty of everyone else to fall in line and no longer oppose whatever it is they do/think/say.

I think you need to define what you mean by unity. When I hear the word unity used in a gospel discussion I immediately think of Zion where the people are of one heart and one mind. To me that is the ultimate destination of a Christian life. So do you disagree with that or are you defining unity differently?

I was reading in a book recently about temples where the author talks about how the Lord not only wants us to observe sacred spaces (i.e. temples) but also sacred time, such as the Sabbath. I really liked the idea of connecting the Sabbath to temples. We learn in the temple/scriptures that the Lord created all things spiritually first and then temporally. I think this is very much one of the roles of Sabbath observance. At the start of each week we renew covenants, study the doctrines, and refocus our lives on the things of the Spirit. We come to better understand the kind of life we ought to live. Then throughout the coming week we put into practical implementation those principles we learned on Sunday. In other words we act out in the temporal world the things we first observed spiritually on the Lord's day, completing (at least in part) the creative process of becoming like our Savior.

Obviously the decision is one to be made after counseling with the Lord and for some people working on some Sundays is acceptable to the Lord. But the scriptures make it pretty clear that as a rule we should not perform our labors on Sunday. Just because there are exceptions to such things does not mean the Lord condones it in most cases.

I'm going to develop a new card game called Zion, where if you can't get your opponent to win then you have lost. That way we can be perfectly competitive and Christlike all at the same time.

I totally agree. The difference (and this is all probably just a case of jargon) is that one does not have to win the competition to be happy and satisfied with the outcome of the competition.

The wrong or right of competition is all about mentality. If your goal is to become better than you were then it is good. If your goal is to be better than others are then it is not good. I think that is what @anatess2 is getting at.

I found this to be interesting and relevant. Taken from History of the Church vol 4: Joseph Smith speaking: Now this Enoch God reserved unto Himself, that he should not die at that time, and appointed unto him a ministry unto terrestrial bodies, of whom there has been but little revealed... Now the doctrine of translation is a power which belongs to this Priesthood. There are many things which belong to the powers of the Priesthood and the keys thereof, that have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world; they are hid from the wise and prudent to be revealed in the last times. Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead. So it would make sense that they would return to the earth when it has become (or soon will be) a terrestrial kingdom.

@CV75, care to elaborate on the meaning of gathering all things in one?

I like that idea. If their cities descend while the New Jerusalem is being constructed but prior to the coming of the Lord, they may show us how to turn this new city into Zion and help us prepare for the official Second Coming. I don't know if that matches the official timeline of events (if there is one) but it sounds plausible.