laronius

Does anybody know the roles that are to be played by the inhabitants of the cities of Enoch and Salem when they are brought back to earth? It could be argued that Enoch and his people were taken up because the flood was coming but Melchizedek and his people lived after the flood. So why is God reserving them for the last days? What role will they serve when they return?

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams Once you take God and his set definition of morality out of the equation our entire legal foundation becomes the house built on sand. Relative morality means you have relative laws.

I think the key is found in verse 9: 9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. He apparently saw more than the Lord's spirit body. Somehow he saw evidence of his physical body as well. Then consider verses 16 and 17: 16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. 17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites. Not completely sure what this all means but Moroni seems to be pretty adamant in letting us know that what the brother of Jared saw was not simply the Lord's spirit body.

I think its important to address the difference between agency and rights. Agency is simply the ability to choose for ourselves. This however does not mean we get to do whatever we want (even when it can be argued that it doesn't impact anyone else). For example, the war in heaven was fought over agency. One third of the hosts of heaven wanted to follow Satan's plan. Did they get what they want? No. God essentially said too bad and gave them the royal boot. Why was he able to do this without depriving them of their agency? Because following Satan's plan wasn't an option or a right that God had given them. Everything comes from God and we have no right to demand anything except that which he chooses to give us. Its no different in this world, especially here in the US of A. The Bill of Rights was our inspired forefather's attempt to address exactly what those God-given rights are. So to argue that God (and by extension His Church) does not have any say as to what right's people have just doesn't hold water. IMO.

@MrShorty, you almost make a believer out of me. Perhaps I will get my telescope out and a bowl of popcorn.

I think the test began (formally) in the 1960s. Until then, even though the world rejected some of our more "peculiar" beliefs, much of our core principles were in line with society's. Beginning in the 60s that all began to change and has been becoming more pronounced over time. Like Pres HInckley alluded, it will be our ability to hold to our old-fashioned principles in a world where it is all the fashion to embrace the cutting edge of moral evolution that will decide where we fall in the day of judgment. I think Pres Monson has it right when he quotes the poem: “Vice is a monster of so frightful mien As to be hated needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace.” - Alexander Pope

So I'm seeing a lot of stuff about this coming Saturday the 23rd being "another" big day in terms of fulfillment of prophecy. Not that I believe this one anymore than the others but this one is catching me off-guard. (I guess I must be a sleep Does anyone know where this one is stemming from? What this one is all about and why they suppose this day specifically?

@Sunday21 while there are some things that the Church is pretty adamant about in terms of how things are done, there is actually a lot of customization that can and is intended to be done at the local level. My guess is that the majority of the overly burdensome policies your unit faces could actually be tailored to meet your needs. This is why we have ward councils. Maybe there is a break down in up the ladder communication taking place that needs to be addressed. But even in those areas where customization can't take place or if local leadership is unresponsive its important to remember that the Lord is aware of us and if we are truly doing our best he will help us prioritize our responsibilities. I've never been a bishop but I can guarantee that most have had to let some things slide because they simply don't have the time to do everything. But the principle of being saved by grace after all we can do applies here as much as anywhere.

Perhaps we draw too much of a distinction at times between the temporal and spiritual. The Lord has made it clear that ALL things are spiritual to him and so it would make sense that any commandment we receive that appears to be temporally related ultimately would have a greater spiritual purpose to it. Perhaps the idea of Zion is the ideal example of this. It is the creation of oneness among people that is manifested through having all things common among them temporally but is rooted in a condition of a oneness of heart and mind.

@Fether, I found this in an old Ensign article. Maybe something to chew on: The Hebrew family was also known as a house. The founding of a family was to build a house. The use of the term house was very flexible and could include the entire nation (the house of Jacob or the house of Israel) or a segment of the people (the house of Judah or the house of Joseph). https://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/05/hebrew-manners-and-customs?lang=eng

@Scott your post made me think of this scripture: Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Don't pigeon hole yourself into a way the Spirit needs to communicate with you. God communicates with us in those ways we best understand. Perhaps with your unique set of circumstances God is reaching out to you differently than most. What ever you may lack in the workings of the gift of the Holy Ghost you definitely enjoy the light of Christ in your life, otherwise you would be dead to such things as loving ward members and desires to serve them. Maybe you need to reverse engineer those positive feelings and desires you do have and try to trace them back to their source. Perhaps there you will find your answer.

I know we should look for God in all things but I've never considered crabs and lobsters as being especially symbolic, perhaps I need to take a look at that... Yeah, I don't think it means everyone having the exact same of everything, even the law of consecration doesn't work that way. I think the "sufficient for our needs" principle is the general idea.

In directing the early saints to establish a bishop's storehouse the Lord said this: 3 For verily I say unto you, the time has come, and is now at hand; and behold, and lo, it must needs be that there be an organization of my people, in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion— 4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven; 5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. 6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things; The being equal in earthly things is I believe a reference to the importance of consecration and caring for and helping our brethren to become "rich like unto ourselves" so that one man does not possess more than another. But what is the being equal in heavenly things and its importance? Spiritual progression is a very personal thing and we each progress at different rates so how can we be equal in heavenly things?

From "Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith" pg 220 The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever “the morning stars sang together” for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal “now;” He knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come. Sounds like one plan to me, one that included the fall.

If we were dealing with a man who truly cared for his country I would agree but I don't know if that is the case. What China wants is a stable Korean peninsula (not entirely under the influence of the US). If Kim Jong-un gets it in his mind that China represents a threat to his regime we don't know how far he might go. I guess it all comes down to how content Kim Jong-un is with maintaining power as opposed to increasing his standing in the world.

I know there are rules about what topics can and can't be discussed here on this forum but being new and inexperienced in the finer points of forum laws I will proceed under the guise of ignorance. There are also aspects of the gospel that naturally bleed over into things of a political nature. So I will also couch this in a gospel theme so as to somewhat justify this post, not intending this to be a political post but rather a discussion (and perhaps some finely wrought speculation) about how the Lord intends to accomplish his purposes in the world in which we now live. With all that is happening in North Korea these days the thought occurred to me the other day about one potential fallout scenario from all this. Trump has been putting a lot of pressure on China to leverage whatever influence they have on their neighbor to the south. China appears to be responding. I'm not completely convinced that Kim Jong-un is as irresponsible as he would have us believe but I could be totally wrong there. What if relations between North Korea and China go south and North Korea begins a conflict with China. The result could be catastrophic in the short term but may end up producing some much needed changes in that region, changes that could allow the Church to enter into both nations. At the present time I don't see the way opening up for the spread of the gospel into that part of world without some serious and potentially deadly conflict/natural disaster taking place, whether it be this or some other future event. Any thoughts?

Beware @Traveler, @Vort is a stickler for proper terminology. But you've been around for a while so you probably already knew that.

I think it was this part: the majority either fought with Michael, or at least refrained from active opposition, thus accomplishing the purpose of their “first estate”... Maybe a stretch but it seems to me that he was implying that there may have been those who opposed God's plan but for some reason chose not to take an active part in Satan's rebellion. I guess my main point was that not all who come to earth do so because they wholeheartedly supported God's plan. Like I said this was my interpretation of his interpretation.

Yes. It reminds me of the story of Heber C Kimball and his wife Vilate. My great, great grandfather only consented to something similar after he had a dream (never recorded what he experienced) but I think the Lord is very mindful of our weaknesses and will provide sufficient witness to meet the command being given us.

I think that's a good attitude to have @An Investigator. Sometimes there are things in the gospel that you just have to put on the shelf as it were in terms of understanding, waiting for the day when God chooses to bring them into greater light for us. Until then we hold onto those things that we do have a testimony of and don't let the things on the shelf hinder our progression. I think the practice of polygamy has a placed reserved on many a shelf.

I've already made a few comments on this forum so I guess I ought to introduce myself formally. I'm a life long member of the Church. I can't recall a time I did not have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it just always seem to be there from my early years. In fact the time I did pray about the truthfulness of the BofM in my teens I got the response back "You already know its true" and I guess that is how it has always been for me with the Church in general. I served a mission stateside and have tried to be diligent in whatever callings have come my way. But lest you think translation is right around the corner for me I freely admit I have a LONG ways to go in getting where I need to be in this life. I enjoy studying/discussing the doctrines of the Church in depth and hope to find like minded people here as well.

I totally get what you are saying @Vort. There is a tone of reverence that should accompany any discussion about all things divine otherwise we risk becoming too casual in our attitudes and relationships with Deity. There are times when I too cringe inside when I hear such references by otherwise well meaning members.

I guess I don't see a problem with how I worded it (obviously) but do you perchance have a more suitable way to express the same sentiment?

In Jesus the Christ, Talmage seems to imply this may have been the case. (at least that is my interpretation of Talmage's interpretation)

Christ/Jehovah was able to achieve Godhead status even before coming to earth let alone experiencing a spiritual death. Lds.org points out that there are actually two spiritual deaths we encounter, one due to the fall and the other to our own disobedience. The second one is simple enough, we sin and become impure. But the second one is a little trickier. What about the fall of Adam cuts the rest of us off from the presence of God?