the Ogre

AJ: I told you to not expect compromise. I like interfaith forums. They are a lot of fun, but this is LDS.net, an LDS site. I am not an apologist; I hate the stuff. I gave you the LDS answer. Do with it as you will. I gave the answer to all of your questions before as did Justice and Bytor. You did not listen to what we said: MODERN REVELATION through MODERN PROPHETS. Fine. I think human identity is more complicated than that, but why get distracted. It does not, you are not paying attention or listening to what we are saying. If you refuse to listen, then you suffer from some type of bizarre megalomania. If you think we are wrong, that is fine so long as you start hearing what we are saying. MODERN PROPHECY. Article of Faith number 1: We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Remember, remember we deny the Nicine Creed. If you do not know what that means, then I suggest you do not even understand what it means to be a main-stream Chr-stian. Prove it. I told you, we do not believe G-d the F-ther and J-sus are the same person. J-sus was born to Mary and H-s father is the very physical G-d the F-ther. We believe G-d has a body. You are restating what I said. So, you are saying we are deceiving you? I am tell you a lie? You are saying every Latter-day Saint on this board is a liar? I would urge caution. We are explaining LDS doctrine. I am not trying to convince you of anything. Don't take my word, follow Moroni's challenge, after reading the Book of Mormon, and ask G-d yourself and see what happens. Your choice. I trust the word of G-d as it comes from a prophet of G-d. MODERN REVELATION!!! Your choice. Listening skills. He didn't, I recommend prayer and then listening for an answer. G-d answers individual prayer. Yup, no argument there. I told you before, that you did not understand John 1.1. I should clarify, you do not understand it as a Latter-day Saint does. This is something that Latter-day Saints typically do not believe. The argument springs up every once in a while, but like I say often: G-d nowhere gives H-s methodology, H- only says what H- did do and even that much is often discussed here and everywhere else theology is discussed. Latter-day Saints or not. You sound like a gnostic and that is one of the things Latter-day Saints believe led to the great apostasy. _____________________ Okay, there we go. Simple answers. I will not do that again. You are particularly stubborn. I am not trying to convert you. I presented LDS doctrine simply. You refused to listen. If you think I am lying, then you have a problem. The core to the answer I am giving you is modern revelation. If you require that I deny that, then you are requiring me to deny that my G-d does not live and does not speak to H-s children alive today. Move past propaganda and speak without slogans. I am not using any.

The only thing I want is a set of study scriptures with much bigger margins. At least two inches.

AJ: I do not want you to get distracted by Bro. Rud's explanation. It is very good, but it focuses on ancient-tribal adoption as a metafore for salvation. Ie.. if we are adopted into the household of one tribe, we receive the benefits of membership and are considered sons, daughters, children of the father of the tribe. If we are adopted into the household of G-d, then we are H-s children, we are siblings with H-s F-rstborn S-n: J-sus Chr-st. The problem is, this chapter does not explain how J-sus became the F-rstborn S-n of our H-avenly F-ther. It is genius description, but still does not deal with the timeline I gave you. If anything, the timeline I gave explains Romans 8 in a way that is simple and straight forward. If you want the simple answer to your question, study and understand the great plan of happiness.

I'm sure the new guy will be as wonderful as the last one.

Put a thousand plus miles between you and her once you get married. That's what my dad did.

The F-ther does not call J-sus G-d. H- calls J-sus S-n.

I was the one who called you a troll and that you were insulting, so I'll respond (make sure to address me directly instead of rameumpton).First: we are not pots, but I understand the analogy you are using. It is okay if you are not LDS, but wrong headed if you are. This is one of those things that Latter-day Saints differ from what PC calls traditional Chr-stianity. While yes we believe we were created, we know by whom we were created. You have yet to approach the question of when Latter-day Saints believe humanity was created. It is the lynchpin to the answer to your question: "How can Jesus be [our] spiritual or elder brother?" Now, I will say that I am not going to dilute LDS doctrine with interfaith diplomacy. You want compromise, seek it elsewhere. Our spirits were created by G-d the F-ther. H- is the Cr-ator. Latter-day Saints deny the Nicene Creed, the Trinity, and the Triune G-d. Oook!?! Where does that put us, I wonder. Different!!! And happily so. Second: We were created before the Earth was!!! Our spirits were not created at conception. Our spirits were created by our F-ther and we lived with H-m in what we call The Pre-existence. Who was created at that time? Every spirit that has interdicted the earth (and others), this includes those spirits who are united with lucifer and oppose humanity and who will never receive a body. This also includes J-sus Chr-st. H-, according to LDS doctrine, was created when we were in the pre-existence. I told you about Mormon.org - Home , you can look this up there. We, J-sus, you, and I and everyother living breathing person were spiritually born before the earth was created. That make J-sus our brother. Because J-sus was the first spirit created, H- is our elder brother. You believe differently. I am fine with that, so long as you are fine with my beliefs (Article of Faith number 11). Third: G-d the F-ther, during the pre-existence proposed a plan: the great plan of happiness (see: Mormon.org - Home ). H- asked who would execute this plan. Two voices came forward. One insisted he receive all the glory in place of the F-ther and the other voice said the glory will remain with G-d and that each person involved would work his or her way to salvation through it. This second voice is J-sus. The L-rd agreed with H-m and rejected the first voice: lucifer. J-sus went forward and the earth was created and eventually we were born. As G-d's executor, H- created the physical earth in the name of G-d the F-ther and paid our way through H-s sacrifice. G-d the F-ther created our spirits in the pre-existance. J-sus set the process in motion (whatever it was) that lead to the creation of our bodies. J-sus is the physical creator of everything the F-ther planned and envisioned in the great plan of happiness. To conclude, I showed you how Latter-day Saints believe J-sus is our spiritual brother and our G-d as the person who created the earth in the name of G-d. How do we justify this? Modern revelation. I was very upset with your indirect jibes at modern prophesy, because these jibes were attacks at the core of our beliefs. We need men like Joseph Smith and Thomas S. Monson, because the exact nature of G-d and his S-n J-sus Chr-st is so chaotic without them. This and other reasons explain why we have modern scripture. My explanation is simple. If you want more, please do your research.

Dude, that is totally awesome.

I apologize to all. Polls are tricky. I wish the question field could handle more than a few words or that I was smart enough to force it to. Sorry (I feel retarded)

Okay, I suck at writing polls (I'll work at it) The Question should be: Please see Kirby: Whether by Mormons or not, we're all products of 'forced' religion - Salt Lake Tribune I read Kirby almost every time he writes. Sometimes he writes some funny stuff, sometimes not. This time he wrote a response to an article referring to people baptizing Pres. Obama's mother for the dead. I think the article brings up a topical subject: religious conversion. I am interested in the idea of forced conversion. A friend thinks it will be one of the defining arguments in the last days along with a few others. How do you feel?

It really depends. I do not recommend sprinting and then diving into the baptismal font. My grandfather took two and a half years. My ex took six weeks. I would guess a couple of months would work out best for all. I do not think there is a minimum or maximum time, but then I never served a mission so I do not know.Make sure your questions are answered satisfactorily. Be satisfied and happy about what you are doing. If you are uncomfortable asking the missionaries something, you can ask the bishop. They are very good at keeping confidences. You can ask us, but as you notice, sometimes the answers get convoluted -- stick with the simple answers, salvation is not based on advanced degrees in theology. Often the deep stuff is not important. Joy is to be had and savored and is best when the spirit touches you heart through the simple beauty of the gospel. When I reactivated, I was the Sunday School Secretary. When my ex joined, she became a nursery worker. My brother's wife helped write the Sacrament meeting programs. If you go a mission, there is plenty of opportunity for this. The only time I ever did is when I was the Ward Mission Leader or volunteered to do splits with the missionaries (I didn't serve a mission). I only volunteered for splits maybe four times in my entire life (unfortunately); but, when I was the mission leader, I did loads of stuff with the missionaries, but it still mostly involved helping families to reach-out to their neighbors and friends. Latter-day Saints are not the JWs, door-knocking is not mandatory. Now, I know some folks who are good at it, but even they do not have a lot of opportunity to do so; they invite people over for family home evening, dinners, and holidays. Tracting and cold-calling are always the worst options. Being a good and honest friend and neighbor is always the best way to proselytize.

Oh yeah, baby . . . that's what I'm waiting for!!!!Kinda like the 72 virgins bit with Islam. (alright, all you other dudes, start smoking right now . . . your bishop doesn't know what he's talking about!!!)

I recommend you lock him in the bathroom and pass food under the door until he turns 18 when you can safely kick him out.

Hey Ezra, Welcome to the site. I'm glad you came by. Aaron the Ogre

Part of being a missionary is totally focusing on being a missionary. It's very much like when one is married or in a committed relationship one should be totally focused on that relationship. Distraction is a big problem for both.It sounds like you really like this guy, however (I know, you said you love him). I wonder if you have really committed to what you said: not waiting for him. If not, that's fine, but I think you are making things too hard on yourself. Look, most LDS girls don't wait for their high-school sweethearts. Most go to college and meet someone else. It is a natural part of growing up. To me, it sounds like he is a little confused about what is going on at home and is probably a bit homesick and still hasn't gotten his priorities worked out. This is the distraction that is a problem. I don't think it is you (other than you sharing some of the same confusion). He has problems and priorities to work out. Even if you aren't LDS, I am sure you understand the importance of focusing on commitments, a good-work ethic, and most importantly the reason he is there: missionary-work. Learning this focus will make him a better person after his mission and that is extremely important. It is realistic, but isn't easy. Being on his mission does not mean he doesn't care about you. It means he is serving G-d. Right now, you must be second, third, forth, fifth, or sixth on his list of priorities (maybe one-hundredth).Being a missionary is never easy. Make it easier for him and let him serve G-d without making him feel guilty about leaving you at home. Support him with your love and know, right now G-d is number one for him and the work he has to do. You know, no matter what he says, his mother is probably number three or four on the priority list, how does she feel about his mission? I think a lot of people on this board are going to have sympathy for you, but have next to none for him. Why? We understand the needs of a missionary and what it is like to have a girlfriend at home. Maybe, he should be the one to write you off. It would make things easier. You being LDS has nothing to do with this. This is good advise for every missionary.

Look, write him off. If he cannot commit to being a good missionary (while on his mission), then he will never be able to commit to you completely. I am glad you told him. He sounds like he is getting way too possessive and that's not healthy. If it becomes a much-bigger issue, write his mission president. If you don't know who he is, let us know which mission he is in and we can not only tell you the mission president's name and address, some of us might actually know him. This isn't an issue of getting him off your back, but helping both of you focus on what you both need to be doing whatever that might be.

Have you read Martin Buber's Ich und Du? It is not LDS, it is Jewish. I highly recommend it. It is a fantastic read about the relationship between humanity and deity through prayer (and of course much more). It approaches prayer from a very intimate, personal, loving relationship. Martin, though, would not mind a relationship with G-d that involved friendship either.

Dude, I agree with you. H- is my friend, but he is also my G-d, so I don't speak to him in the same tone of voice as I do my friends, but that is a personal choice (conference talks point in this direction as well). I do not think any subjects are taboo either. I know one thing, H- loves to hear from us.

Oh my . . . because the answer's the same and OBVIOUS!!!We are commanded to worship our F-ther in H-aven. No one else, not even our S-viour to whom we owe everything. Why complicate the stupefying? personal note: You could not hear, but the air is still heavy in my apartment with the WT- I let loose when I read this post. Of all the completely pointless asides!!! Plenty of people have answered the OP intelligently, was this necessary? GRRRR

Keith: I'm glad you posted back. Books: I used to recommend A Marvelous Work and A Wonder, but that book is a bit dated. I always recommend Mormon.org - Home (to investigators and antagonists who don't know anything about Latter-day Saints). Most of the books I read are secular, but I love to read The Ensign (an LDS monthly magazine) and highly recommend it, though it is generally not in most newstands. I am glad you read Mormonism for Dummies, I really like that book. It demystifies a lot of the falsehoods about the church. A church manual I love is Gospel Principles, if you spoke to some missionaries, they could help you get both this manual and The Ensign and loads of other great stuff, but if you are not ready for that you can find the entire Gospel Principles manual at: LDS.org - Sunday School Table of Contents - Gospel Principles . The Book of Mormon is of course the best place to start. Facial hair: I have always had a beard, mustache, or goatee since I ETSed from the military (even when I was the EQ Pres . . . ummm that is a note for the quibble mice). I will note that bishops and other leaders are encouraged to shave daily. If I were called to a bishopric, I would shave in a second. Beverages: Liking and not drinking are two completely different subjects. I love wine and JD, but I have not had any since 1992 when I got serious about the church after a youth, military stint, and two years at BYU drunk (same for smoking, but I never really liked it, the other drunks were doing it). I have just committed to stop drinking caffeine, so no more Coke, but for most members it is simply a personal choice. As far as coffee goes, it is possibly the only thing I have ever tasted except motor-oil and gasoline that tastes worse than beer (and of course beer/pizza-vomit). Don't drink it, it's nasty. As a Latter-day Saint the coffee-thing is easy. Tea is boring and Coke better so why bother. However, both coffee and tea are covered by the Word of Wisdom, so no-go anyway. Music: I love the blues, rock, r&b, most heavy metal, blue-grass, and jazz, some country, rap, and big-band, the occasional broadway musical, classical, and MoTab. I should note that I do delete the really repulsive stuff from my iTunes. I delete sexually exploitative music and generally shy away from stuff with too much non-TV profanity. I have begun to hate love-songs, but that has nothing to do with being LDS. Movies: I recently committed to no R-rated movies (definitely a personal choice), so that means I don't watch many movies anymore unless I see them on TV. PG is a rating in my opinion that generally means "this movie blows". Missionary work: All missionary work is voluntary (if you are missionary-age -- 19 to 24 -- it is recommended you serve a 2 year mission). If it is not your thing, than do not feel bad at all. As a Latter-day Saint, I can spend my time serving in many capacities (I recommend not being a Scout Master, there is no worse calling in the church . . . I loved it anyway, however). Sorry, I went long. Ask more stuff.

Maybe that is why you were led to this site, to learn to feel the spirit.

There are no "good" apologetics in the same way there are no "good" priestcrafts.

Joy:I want to be in your ward. You guys sound wonderful. I love both those groups. They need them in my ward.

Okay, I am very biased (burned, scarred, or jaded might be better descriptions) in this area. In my opinion, it has to do with are you a Utah or California Latter-day Saint or LDS from anywhere else in the world.I think UT/CA LDS do more excluding and the rest of the world is more inviting. There are exceptions, but I have not experienced many.

Keith:Personally, I would post them in new threads. Ignore the attack-dogs on this site (most likely me) and read those who post sincere thoughtful responses. Anyway, welcome to LDS.net. I'm glad you are here. It takes courage to start threads, but do anyway (I've only started three or four -- I'm the peanut gallery). Aaron the Ogre