Dove

Hello, Bytor, I'm sorry to hear this. It is sad! Well, maybe it's your turn to love and serve this particular missionary? Can you reach out to him? Develop a trust where maybe, by your example and love, show him what he showed you years ago? In all likelihood, events/people/things have led him away from the church. Sure smoking is bad; however, combined with the long hair and beard, he seems to have really rebelled/chosen an alternate lifestyle, maybe as a reaction to a negative occurrence in his life. Ours is not to judge.....I say this gratefully, because only Father knows what has caused him to choose to turn away. Ours is to proffer our arms in love, example, and invitation for the joy that comes from following our Saviour.... I would suggest to approach him in a low key way, with a lot of acceptance and unconditional love....Maybe he will come to trust you and open up as to why he's choosing this lifestyle. Pray for the Spirit and His guidance. Wouldn't it be a beautiful cycle if by your influence, he is lead back?

Hello, Tubaloth, The first thing I thought of while reading your question was the great intercessory prayer given by the Saviour in John, (John 17) and a shorter version of it in the Book of Mormon. One concept the Saviour talks about in these passages is how He and the Father are one, and how He desires his disciples and all those who accept Him through their testimony to become "one." I believe the great condition of the celestial kingdom is that we will all become "one." Others on this thread have referred to this as our universal family. In God's eyes, we are all equally important, and part of being filled with the love of Christ is wanting to be with all who will in the eternities... I had an interesting experience when my cousin was married. At his wedding reception, we found ourselves alone in a room....we began talking to each other a little bit, which doesn't happen very often. It wasn't for very long, but was poignant. Much of my family on my dad's side was there at the reception. I got such a sense of my family on the other side. It was incredible, such a sense of their love and closeness to me. A real sense of being connected to them. I was crying to my other, distant, cousins about it. Again, I felt their love and that connectedness....... I think it would be incredible to feel this with as many of our "brothers" and "sisters" as possible. On some level, we are all connected to each other. I think it's highly likely we loved and cared for each other with an eternal perspective in the pre-existence. Think about it this way....What if someone very close to you died, say your mother/wife/sibling/etc., and you had no way of being with that person again. Wouldn't that be devastating? Maybe this is the way it is with our ancestors...Imagine not doing their temple work for them while we can, and then realizing as a result, we will never be connected to them with that love through the eternities..... a sobering thought, to me.

Hello, LatteLady, I've prayed often to forgive myself and others..... I've come to believe forgiving is something I can't do on my own, that it also requires the grace of Christ to have my heart freed. I do pray for honesty as to what's bothering me, and Father always shows me deeper things about my emotions/experience/myself I'm not sure about the workings of forgiveness yet. The closest I can come is a lot of letting go; let go and let God.....Let Him take over in changing my heart. I can work on my actions and at working to do His will; but the change of heart, to me, comes through Him and the Holy Ghost, through Christ....

Snow, What an interesting topic..... I acknowledge the scriptures that say that through obedience to God's will we will come to know Him Frankly, I believe we know a lot about Him; but, to know Him, really know Him, is a whole different topic.... I believe obedience may open the windows of heaven and allow the Spirit to bear witness of Him and things about Him.... I believe we really don't know Him very much....that all the scriptures combined don't gives us the depth/width/length of who He is.... Sort of like how we only use 3% of the capacity our brain has (anyone ever heard of this?)....the vast remainder of our brains remain untapped and unused, why? Then again, there is so much to see of His workings in this world alone, so many witnesses... While I have read the Book of Mormon time and again, and have felt God's workings in my life strongly......I have really come to know what little I know of God through life's experiences, and a little through the Spirit. What I mean by "a little through the Spirit" is that never has God revealed the whole picture to me yet on even my own life.....My experience has been that He mainly leaves me to wade through it. The Spirit mainly provides comfort and the strength to endure rather than providing full answers....."faith"...... The times of my life I have striven to be strictly obedient, have been the times life has been the most difficult for me, by quite a bit.... I believe this is to learn humility, that I don't have the whole picture, while He does; to learn submission, to submit myself to His will; to learn perhaps to rely solely on Him, amongst other things I may not even be aware of, It's difficult to remain obedient when being "obedienct" produces more heartache in my life. Perhaps these hard experiences are necessary for me to learn to a perspective/compassion/love that is more like HIs.....There are times when I see it from a different perspective and am so grateful that I have experienced those "hard" things.....

I feel like you are approaching this from your perspective/experience of life, which is one way to do so.....Obviously we are very different in our aspects..... Traveler, while you, somewhat chasteningly and correctively, said that people focus "too much on death and suffering, you still haven't answered my question as to why there is so much suffering inherent in life, and why God allows it, when He has the power to stop it. Instead, I feel you have downplayed the point, dismissed it as not being so bad, etc. I strongly disagree with this.

ps, what does indendiary mean?

Hey Maxel, Shall we both stop apologizing to each other? LOL......I think we both feel bad about this.... I feel bad you're not having a good night tonight. Let us know if you would like to discuss it or just deal with it on your own... I didn't feel you were really taking it out on me specifically....I wasn't sure what the problem was I like the discussion that was progressing here. If it's okay with you, I would like to respond to Traveler's rebuttal to my opinion. I could always do that with another thread. It would just take more time and effort to do so. I'm pretty worn out today... Anyway, no ill will, and empathy for what you're coping with right now......

Maxel, Yes, the anger is coming through! What are you so angry at? That this thread diverged? You didn't feel like your questions were answered from your original post? We're saying things that are against our religion? What? I could get all preachy and defend why what has already been posted before now is okay; but, the point being is apparently this is not okay to you. I would like to know from you, in kind and respectful terms, what is bothering you?

Traveler, I did write a response in answer to you last post.... I deleted it because 1) This line of discussion is bothering Maxel 2) I feel I do have quite a different perspective on the necessity of opposition (ie, pain and suffering) in life, that not only you, but others may not understand or agree with it, and therefore may become bothered or upset by it 3) What I see as positive discussion may be construed by others as contentious, or somehow negative in it's tone as well as content 4) I'm not comfortable disclosing my views on opposition, given the resistance to what already has been posted. I am grateful for Grandmakabipbip. Her posts addressed to the fullest here if not the need for opposition, the results of our choices with them. I feel this could have lead on to an enlightening discussion about the need for the atonement in connection with opposition. I'm sorry if what I have written has been contentious or caused such feelings...... Dove

Maxel, I'm sorry you feel this way......I didn't get that anyone was trying to "render the Book of Mormon untrue"...... I hope you're okay with the discussion diverging into other topics. Why not? Just because it started on one subject doesn't mean there's a rule from it diverging..... I hope this thread isn't closed, as I haven't seen it fall into "mutilating" each other. We're just discussing. Again, I feel bad you take issue. Why not enter into discussing the topic at hand? After all, we are talking about God's dealings with His chldren, in one way or another.

Thanks much for your suggestions.....They are very sound to me and worth following. :) They follow closely the impressions I received a few years ago about what would be well to follow to become healthier. I'm losing much needed weight right now and want to exercise more when some of this weight is off. I also agree with the diet you advocate.... Thanks again

Hey Snow, My impression of it was, if not argumetative, one of chanllenging her reasoning. It also sounded a little flippant to me. I won't dismiss, though, that my own "preconceived contexts" very well could have been involved. I'm really glad, though, and I do believe, you are not seeking argument for argument's sake....The best in your search of more info.... Dove

While there may be "good" in the world, evil is so much more common~ I chafe at your comment because it again skirts the issue of, if not the necessity and purposefulness in pain, the inevitability of most everyone experiencing it.....To think of it as "fun," to me, is rather trite and light minded in it's perspective. I don't say this to be rude. My experience of life definitely is not one of "fun." Purposeful, full of witnesses as to the reality of good and evil, and my belief that God lives, that He's all powerful, that He knows me personally, and that what happens here has eternal consequences, yes; but simply "fun," no..... There is purpose in everything, imo...whether we want to acknowledge that or not doesn't change it. I personally look at life as attempting to hike a steep mountain at noon day, with rocks and dirt hailing down upon oneself. It would be very easy to just fall off it and perish below. The only thing that makes it traversable are the divinely placed foot holds given along the way; ie. grace.......Still, it requires all the skill, ability, and strength one has to arrive at it's summit and to be able to see the glorious view at top.

Hey, Snow, I appreciate your pov......I feel in my first post on this thread that the scripture I quoted from the Book of Mormon clearly stated that God allows even righteous people to be killed that his judgments to be carried out on the wicked will be just...... Here are the verses again..... 9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of amartyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire. 10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the apower of God which is in us, and save them from the flames. 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the cblood of the dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day. I can't state it more clearly.....And you certainly have the mental capacity to understand the words/meaning/intent of what was just stated. I certainly can give you example upon example of how many people have been called to suffer and die for Christ's name, throughout the Book of Mormon and Bible. However, because of your intellectual prowess and position as a moderator here. I have assumed that you are 1) LDS, 2) have read and studied the scriptures, meaning Book of Mormon and Bible, a great deal, and 3) believe that the writings are true and correct. Am I wrong in these assumptions? If so, may I ask, what do you believe? As far as "child's fairy tales" goes, I would suggest a different jab. (Sorry, it did seem like a jab to me.) The reason being, is it seems to me far more childish and dismissive of the whole issue of human suffering at large to not address that extreme suffering is the norm in our world, not the exception. Millions of people every day die slow, heinous deaths not only of torture and murder, but by accidents. Mamy more live long lives of misery by many different circumstances. If we were going about this from a totally logical, reasonable, proof-ridden, and I believe the word is empirical, standpoint, even believing in God would seem just a "childish fairytale" to me.... You did say, "My point is that I cannot reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent god with the portrait of a God that 1. proactively kills innocent life and to a lesser extent 2 stands by idly while innocent life suffers." How do you reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent God with the suffering inherent in life? "Faith" comes to my mind, as well as hope. I do have ideas and reasoning about this...but those come a great deal as my own opinion; so, unless invited, I'll not share them right now. I do ask again what do you believe, and why? I'm interested.......

What I was trying to say is that I still struggle with overwhelming depression, even though I'm on the meds....However; when I try to stop, the effects of doing so are quite traumatic, more than I ever knew or realized would be b4 I started the meds. My resentment is that these meds aren't living up to the claim of relieving my chemical depression at an incredible monetary price to boot. Yet, I wasn't warned of the devastating effects that would happen if I stopped taking them.... Ryanh, it's a whole different world of extreme fear and anxiety. Where my dreams are greatly effected. Yes, I've coped with serious depression my whole life, but the extreme fear and anxiety that come when stopping the meds is something I had never experienced before. I know they are chemically induced. While I was hospitized before I started the meds once, at the urging of my therapist, because of being suicidal, since I have started the meds, I have been hospitalized many times more.....howbeit usually because I couldn't afford staying on them.... The reason why I am looking at homeopathic remedies as an option is because of the many side effects associated with the more traditional medications.....and because of how far short they have fallen in helping my symptons

I feel a little trepidation to enter into this discussion.....First of all, it's been going on for awhile, and I don't like piping in during the late hours of it. Secondly, I don't have quite the reasoning ability and scriptures at the tip of my tongue technique to compete with Snow, JAG, and others. I'm reminded of the scripture in the Bible, "Ever learning, and never coming to a knowledge of the truth." However, I do feel the urging to speak out on the issues being brought up in this thread. I hope for further answers and perspectives. It amazes me that you, Snow, go on and on about how God will not kill innocent people/babies, when infants and innocents die all the time without God's intervention. Yeah, yeah, you might say that God will not intervene and rob an evil person of their agency. To me, it's quite a thin line between executing the action, and, with the power to stop it, standing idly by. I think of the Book of Mormon story (forgive me, I am a little confused as to what you define as not necessarily historically correct and what principals are true) where Alma and Amulek witnessed the women and children being burned by the Ammonihahites because they had accepted the gospel through their teaching. Amulek wanted to save the women and children from the horrific death through the power of God, only to have Alma stop him and say that "The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the cblood of the dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day." There are so many instances in the Book of Mormon that say God suffers the righteous to be slain, in order for his judgments to rest on the wicked...... There are also many instances in the Bible where God allows the righteous to suffer horrific things, even to death, that His eternal purposes may be accomplished. I feel like God not taking a life (which, he does take lives all the time) and not intervening when others do it is quibbling the point. Maxel, you talk of how it is merciful for babies/little children to be killed rather than living with the devastating effects of emotional, physical and sexual abuse. I really relate to this because I do have all three of those abuses in my childhood. I have long wondered why God didn't mercifully let me die at one point in the memories I have recalled, rather than forcing me to live on with the consequences.... I really like the theory that, at some point in time, we were presented with what would happen to us in this life, and given the option as to live it or no. Yes, I have no evidence to back that theory up, other than revelation given to me through a priesthood blessing years ago. This is about the only thing that makes sense to me. It's hard to wrap my mind around the necessity of the fall and the resulting evil introduced into this world. I can only say that I believe "opposition" is necessary for our growth and progression; that God is all powerful, that he lets babies die in horrific and heinous ways all the time, that he calls the shots on matters of life and death, and that what really transcends wether or not a person lives or dies is their eternal wellfare. In other words, what happens to me while I'm here isn't the point. The point is what I choose to do with it. I profoundly believe that, to choose to handle it in such a way that I am eternally benefitted requires me to utilize the grace of Christ. That without His grace through the atonement, I would be destroyed, or forever doomed to the misery of the adversary.

In following this thread, I just wanted to add my personal experiences with meds..... First off, I have severe depression, have been diagnosed with bipolar, the borderline personality disorder and also diabetes, as well as gynecological problems, the most recent diagnosis with that being prolonged ovulation. All these diagnosis' equals a complex arena of trying to cope with my state of mind in life.....I have had depression noticeably since the age of 14, in the aftermath of my parents' divorce. Mental illness gallops through my father's side of the family, with gynecological issues running through my mother's. When I was in therapy and suicidally depressed, my therapist strongly urged my to be hospitalized. While there they started me on several different medications, one of which was Abilify. I had no insurance, and the dosage of my Abilfiy equaled $500 for one month out of pocket. Little did I know what a heartache it would be to get on this med, not be able to afford it, and not be able to get off of it. I am so dissatisfied with my history of medications! I am now on three psychiatric meds alone and still battle depression and the effects of my other diagnosis', pms being a big issue for me. Basically, while I haven't attempted suicide (I attribute this to God's intervention) I am still in the same boat I was before I got onto all these meds, the only difference being that if I stop taking them, hospitalization is pretty well assured because of how these meds have affected my mind. My meds out of pocket run over $1000 monthly. I feel that my well being is really a lucrative business venture for others! I believe they know what they are doing when they create a medication that is impossible to stop taking without vicious consequences. The price is their's to call..... My only option through the traditional medical field in dealing with the gynecological problems is by taking an oral contraceptive to balance my menstrual cycle.....I have heard horror stories about the damage the pill can do, let alone the possibility of stroke, blood clots and I believe, heart attacks. I don't feel this is an acceptable option..... I have become more than willing to look at homeopathic/herbal remedies in treating all these medical problems....Oh yeah, I am insulin dependent. I do agree that I may be required to take insulin for the rest of my life to manage this disease. However; when I was first diagnosed, I managed it solely through diet and exercise at that point in time. Right now I am obese and am trying to healthily lose the weight. There is a part of me that still wonders what would happen if I strictly kept my diet and exercised like I initially did. I'm sure I wouldn't require the amount of insulin that I do now. I feel that a lot of progress has been made in the medical field. But now I also realize that it is often a science of hit and miss in being properly treated. I don't trust the scientists/manufacturer's/inventors of medicine have my best interests at heart as a patient. I feel often they are acting on greed and their own often dark desires..... Nothing can replace taking responsiblity for, and care of, my health. This includes appropriate traditional medication, diet, exercise, respecting the wording of the WoW and it's intent, and, for me, being open to natural remedies. They are potent and do effect my body. Besides, I have yet to meet a greedy person in this realm of healing.

Hey, Lilac~ I really appreciate/like the points you are making..... I think all of us, at some point, in growing and progressing, will examine our belief system; why it is we believe as we do.... I was born and raised in an LDS home; however, God bore witness to me many times as to the validity of the priesthood authority, mainly through priesthood blessings. There were so many times He would answer my silent, personal prayers verbatim through those blessings, as well as enlightening me concerning my personal life. I like that you say that Christianity makes logical sense to you as well as spiritual sense. I feel that in spades concerning my religion of choice, the LDS church.... One thing that has helped me a great deal is following the Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible~His translations can be obtained in any Bible published by the LDS church. Usually they are in the footnotes and are also in the back of the bible for more lengthier verses...... As I have read and compared the Bible's traditional translation and his translation, the LDS version, to me, is a lot more congruent with whom I understand God to be. It makes a lot more sense and is keeping with what I believe God would teach. I like that you say you also have spiritual confirmations beyond the logical level. So often does God bear witness to me in a quiet, personalized way as to His reality and existence. At times I feel frustrated because there is no way I can prove it to anyone; but, I know it's real and from Him. Snow, I really appreciate your points and think they are valid, ones I agree with. I think what Pam has been trying to say is perhaps you could word them in a more friendly and invitive way, rather than in an argumentative way that could easily be perceived as hostile. Just something to think about in relating to others.....

I really appreciate this topic and quotes...... My husband and I have severe financial trials. I find myself praying for more money. I feel if we were more careful, we'd have enough to meet our needs. One thing I have realized in these strugglings is it is not so much what I have that God is concerned about, so much as it is who I am. One thing the Book of Mormon cautions us to do in association with giving of our substance, is to not run faster than we have strength. To give what we are able to, and to feel in our hearts that if we had more, we would give more. I think of the widow's mite, and how the Lord praised her as giving more than all the people who had given out of the abundance of their wealth......She gave more because she gave all that she had. To me, this is a profound tribute. Truly, the gospel asks that we commit all that we have to the building up of His kingdom. Are we truly willing to do this? I believe that I need to give more in the sense of managing my finances better so that my husband and I can be truly self sufficient/reliant, and able to give more from that point....

Hello, Lilac, Best of wishes in your search for truth. One thing that has been pivotal in my remaining LDS is the close relationship I feel with God through the Holy Ghost....... I'm not so concerned whether the Book of Mormon (or even Bible) is true as I am that I understand if the concepts it is teaching are true and if God then wants me to follow those concepts.... The reason why I say this is that so much of the Book of Mormon, and Bible, can be contended against and repudiated by anyone interested in doing so. I'm trying to communicate that so much of religion comes down to faith and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. True faith cannot be proved (or disproved, really) by science or reasoning. I am LDS because I am convinced the covenants I entered into at baptism are real and binding through the authority of the priesthood. That God does hold me to them...acknowledge them....and blesses me according to my faith in keeping them. I feel the Spirit strongly through the principals of the LDS faith. It feels complete to me and makes sense~ I also have had many witnesses as to the power of God working through the priesthood authority. Through all this, I am so glad to be LDS, even though I've had many trials through my association with this church. I believe through those trials God is refining and purfying me.... Hope this helps, again best of wishes.....

Why do forums so often degenerate into contention and rudeness amongst the posters? I hope that when we disagree with another's view point we would choose a nonattackative and nonderagotory way to express our disagreement. If debate is our end goal, this can be done in a respectful way. One way would be by stating our points and then backing them up with the evidence we have to support them, rather than just focusing on why the opposing point of view is wrong...... Kwil, thanks so much for sharing what you're going through. I too have a lot of psychiatric illnesses as well as physical illnesses.....thanks to all who shared what their illnesses are..... I think a blessing would be great right now, kwil, if that's what you want. While you may not be healed in this lifetime of the bipolar disorder, I promise you that if you reach out to God, He will love you through this and that sooner or later will give you understanding as to why you have been called to go through this. I was told in a priesthood blessing years ago that I had agreed in the pre-existence to have diabetes. It makes sense to me that I also agreed to the host of illnesses I also have. I strongly know that God loves me/us. I struggle with being suicidal, often. I know that the reason I'm still here is because of God's strength and grace in keeping me from taking my own life. One thing I have learned from my many health problems is how weak I am, and that for all my puny efforts, it is truly by God's strength that I can survive and make it through the horrific vicissitude's of life..... Lately, I've been shown some of my behavioral problems.....it's embarrassing to me and hard to realize how "off" I can be, for lack of better words. Yet, I feel His love/comfort/warmth/strength so strongly in these times..... Priesthood blessings have helped me a great deal in coping with the health problems I have. If you want them to, I believe they can do the same for you.......

Hey, Maxel~ I'm sorry to hear you're having a hard time right now. Thank you for your honesty about the depression you struggle with. You mentioned that your mother was in an abusive marriage. I'm wondering where you were in all that (still young and growing?) I have a different take on what I would suggest to you than most of the threads here. First, perhaps you need an adjustment on your meds. Secondly, are you in therapy? Perhaps there are some hidden issues popping up that are causing you to feel down (besides a change in your meds/chemeostasis). Third, perhaps now is not the time to focus on chores and what you "should" be doing.....I find that when I'm depressed, work is more draining than helpful; rather, it causes me to hurt more than feel better.......is there something you find comforting and fulfilling that you could do? Maybe walking, writing in your journal, talking to a friend, concert, etc.? What would make you feel better? What I'm suggesting is to go easy on yourself, and get in touch with what is bringing you down... Prayer really helps me. When I ask for understanding as to what is going on with myself, the Spirit shows me in an honest, real, loving and beautful way what I need to deal with. I hope this helps.....feel free to take it for what it's worth. Please let us know how you're doing.

Hey, Tom, How are you? Whew, what a long post, many postings! :-) Sorry everyone, I didn't read all the posts. Tom, I'm directing what little bit I know to answer your question. My mom once told me that all of us will eventually be caused to stop "sinning" in the eternities. I'm also reminded of the verse, "every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ." I also think of the verse in the Doctrine and Covenants that for every soul there is a kingdom of glory. As I was reading through these posts, my impression is that, maybe the difference between the three kingdoms isn't whether or not we will continue to grow and progress; but, perhaps more so, how much responsibility/callings we will be allowed throughout eternity. I think it is pretty well established that only in the celestial kingdom will one be joined in marriage to procreate "worlds without number." Certainly those exalted in the celestial kingdom will have far more responsibility and independence in the eternities than those of the lower kingdoms who will be far more dependent on Father's jurisdiction/kingdom. Just my thoughts. Dove

Snow, Thank you for bringing this up as a topic. I've yet to read everyone's posts in reply to your original post; however, I feel this is a very valid topic. I just wanted to make you aware of a JST in reference to Lot offering up his daughters to be raped by the men of Sodom. According to the JST translation, this is not actually what happened. Here is the JST~ 13 And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, plead with my brethren that I may not bring them out unto you; and ye shall not do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes; 14 For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that unto these men ye do nothing, that they may have peace in my house; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 15 And they were angry with Lot and came near to break the door, but the angels of God, which were holy men, put forth their hand and pulled Lot into the house unto them, and shut the door. The patriarchal order is a stiff topic for me, as I have witnessed a lot of abuse occur in the name of being "the head of the household," "the father," and the "man of the house." So, for now I would prefer to remain silent on this topic, only to say that yes, because of the patriarchal order, I seriously doubt woman, in general by men of the church, are seen as a viable equal. By this I mean that our voice really isn't acknowledged or listened to. We are treated as a sexual object to be avoided rather than a sibling to be loved. (I say that from several personal experiences I've had with leadership/brethren avoiding me as a single woman of the church.) We are definately in a subservient position, no matter how much protest is made to the contrary~ Dove

1 The words of God, which he aspake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high bmountain, 2 And he asaw God bface to face, and he ctalked with him, and the dglory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence. 3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God aAlmighty, and bEndless is my cname; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? 4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore alook, and I will show thee the bworkmanship of mine chands; but not all, for my dworks are without eend, and also my fwords, for they never cease. 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my aworks, except he behold all my bglory; and no man can cbehold all my dglory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth. 6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the asimilitude of mine bOnly cBegotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the dSavior, for he is full of egrace and ftruth; but there is gno God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I hknow them all. 7 And now, behold, this one thing I show unto thee, Moses, my son, for thou art in the world, and now I show it unto thee. 8 And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the aworld upon which he was created; and Moses bbeheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly cmarveled and wondered. 27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and abeheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, bdiscerning it by the cspirit of God. 28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a asoul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore. 29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called aearth, and there were binhabitants on the face thereof. 30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: aTell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them? 31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him aface to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own bpurpose have I made these things. Here is cwisdom and it remaineth in me. 32 And by the aword of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of bgrace and truth. 33 And aworlds without number have I bcreated; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the cSon I dcreated them, which is mine eOnly Begotten. 34 And the afirst man of all men have I called bAdam, which is cmany. 35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I aknow them. 36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and atell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. 37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The aheavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. 38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no aend to my works, neither to my words. 39 For behold, this is my awork and my bglory—to bring to pass the cimmortality and deternal elife of man. From these scriptures I lean more towards the idea that there is one Saviour for all the worlds Elohim has created; Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ did not atone for Elohim's sins, if indeed He did sin, as there is "no God beside Elohim." Also, yes, I do believe that there are an infinite number of Saviour's for Elohim's relatives of gods who have their own creations. One main reason I feel that the Saviour did not atone for His Father is due to the hierarchy of the patriarchal order. Also, Tom, I have longed wondered how we are to perfectly understand the Saviour and Father unless we are willing to suffer to the depth/degree they have? Correct me if you disagree, but isn't opposition in all things? In order to feel a perfect happiness, it makes sense to me that I must understand a perfect sorrow alongside of it. In the end, is any suffering in vain, truly? Does it matter the many Saviours suffering the many times they have, if this is true? I believe that suffering/pain is a great deal the purpose of our mortal experience, and how we choose to handle it. No, I don't believe in masochism or inflicting pain on others. I believe life hands us the pain in abundance. Here is our choice, to also reflect on the good life offers (what is given us by Christ and His atonement.) I believe this is what the atonement is all about, to choose the positive, goodly ways of living and perceiving life, amidst all the evil.