Dove

Here are some references I've found in lds.org.....I'm looking for more as we speak..... The Only Begotten. “Only Begotten Son” is a well-accepted term relating to Jesus Christ. It is found repeatedly in the Bible and is used by Christians generally. The real meaning of the term, however, is clouded unless one has an understanding of the true nature of God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph’s First Vision and later revelations taught us these essential facts: that the Father and Son are separate beings and that the Father has a body of flesh and bones. With this understanding provided by modern revelation, it is possible to grasp the truth that God the Father is indeed the Father of Jesus Christ’s mortal body. The angel said to Mary, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35; see also 1 Ne. 11:13–21). Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the ‘Son of the Highest.’ In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman.” 5 President Ezra Taft Benson added his witness in these words: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!” 6

I would sincerely doubt that, Dove. Yes, he's the literal son of God. No, that didn't involve 'relations' with God and Mary. Joseph and Mary were married to one another. Unless you can point out where in the scriptures it says that Mary was involved in Polyandry, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Sorry, Guys, I've been away for a few days and didn't know my comments were being answered back..... The first time I heard that the Saviour was born by "relations" through the Father and Mary was in the MTC by my Sunday School teacher.... I have struggled to get my head around it for years, besides hearing it/reading it in the Ensigns and other church references since then..... Please give me time to look them up, as I'm fairly confident I can find them... It wasn't until years later that I found out at a woman's conference the doctrine of Mary and the Father being married...Given in a talk by Hyrum? Smith in the morning star. This to me means that their is polygamy in Heaven, that Mary was probably married to the Father for eternity and Joseph for time, not that the Father "divorced" His other wives, nor that Mary practiced polyandry... Regardless, I have heard this "doctrine" many a time from the pulpit from head leaders... It's not my intent to be disrespectful concerning this. I would simply like some answers to what I've heard several time through church sources....Neither is this meant to be disrespectful or take lightly the topic at hand Thanks...

I have really struggled with this, until it was explained to me that the Father and Mary were first wed before the conception of the Saviour....

Wow, Am I the only one that has heard the doctrine that the Saviour is the literal Son of God, the Father?! I feel like I have read this so often, with explanation and all as to how, for it to be uncomfortable to me! Has anybody else heard this doctrine?

I appreciate this point/question being brought up. I have a sweet joy and respect for Amulek in this story. This verse has also lead me to wonder if he had more than one wife. I think that perhaps the customs of their day would need to be studied to ascertain whether the possesive term "my women" meant "wives" or any adult female in his household..... Regardless, it seems to me that upon Alma's staying/teacing at his house, he went through a change of heart and turned towards God, much like Alma did through his repentance process.....Alma 10, verses 5-6 states that he knew of God's ways, but "would not know." It's amazing to me the sacrifice Amulek made in turning to do God's will for him....There are those verses where the "women and children" were burned for accepting Alma and Amulek's message. Amulek saw their pains in the fire and wanted to stop them from burning to their deaths....Alma was constrained to not do this by the Holy Spirit, saying the women and children burning would be received up to glory and that this was done so that a righteous judgement could be made upon those who burned them...... If you notice, it doesn't mention Amulek's "women and children" as being amongst those who rejected his message, "his kindred, friends and father." (Alma 15:16). I can't help but wonder/believe that Amulek's women and children were among those who Amulek witnessed burning to death as a result of embracing his message..... My heart goes out to Amulek......In Alma 15:18, it speaks of how Alma took Amulek to his own house to minister to him......Amulek gave up everything to follow the Lord. It's incredible to read of his sacrifice. Not only did he give everything up, he saw his women and children burn to death as a result of accepting his message....This blows my mind. By the way, Vort, as I'm sure you probably know, while polygamy was never approved in the history of the Nephit nation, it was practiced at times by the wicked parts of them. Amulek admits to not following God for most of his life in Alma 10:4-5. I think he could have been practicing polygamy before he repented......

I certainly agree with you on this. I think that's what I've been trying to say all along, that it is a personal choice. One of my closest friends renounced mormonism and became a "mainstream" christian. Honestly, it broke my heart....I mourned it for awhile. However, we are still close friends. We respect each others' beliefs and listen to each other's experiences, including the spiritual. I love her dearly. While I talk often of God's communications with me, I also listen to her experiences with Him as well...... If you are interested in finding out more about our beliefs on the afterlife and how we are judged, I would suggest you read some of the sections in our Doctrine and Covenants. (D&C 76) Also, another section in that book goes over how one is to present the truth to another. (D&C 121:35-46) These passages would be more clear than anything written on this thread about our beliefs on one's standing with God.....

Rider, I believe this leads into self accountability.....I may sound like a broken record with this, but who are we to decide for another if their accurately following/heading in the right direction? I understand/believe/strongly feel you don't believe Mormonism to be "the right direction." I respect your right/choice to feel that way. However, I know "mormonism" is my right path, I have felt this confirmed to me strongly by the Holy Spirit......yet it's not mine to tell you that you have to do the same. Are you concerned we are all headed in the wrong direction? One of the great commandments in our beliefs is to pray "always." Can you believe in our sincerity enough to trust that we are in God's hands, and that He hears and answers our prayers, as well as yours?

I feel I understand a little bit better your come from with this..... I appreciate that you haven't argued whether or not LDS are christian, with Bible verses and all. Simply because we could what LDS at times term "Bible Bashing" all the day long. A lot of people (mostly LDS) believe the Bible supports our claim the Christ's church had to be restored....that the Bible prophesied of this. I started reading Elder Wirthlin's talk that you referenced.....I can see where this would bring you to start this thread, especially if you enjoy debate, LOL......I have thought about this and am strongly tempted to contact lds.org to explain this thread there and ask for Elder Wirthlin to address this himself.....I may just do so......although I don't know if you are truly interested in finding out whether or not the LDS church is all it claims to be, or if you have already chosen your beliefs and this is all about debating the point......

Well, I think you've done quite a detailed work here in proving that..... And you're right, with conflicting beliefs, either one is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong. Would you agree? You certainly have put a lot of effort into this thread.....is there something about this that bothers you? In other words, why is this so important to you that you would go at length to bring this point out? Is there something else you are trying to bring out other than the above point? I'm surprised, you say that the thread is only about the part you bolded out of my quote......the surprise is that this whole thread has been about who qualifies as a christian. Of course, if you believe we're in error, given all that you've said here, wouldn't that mean we're not christian? or still are?

Rider, I have been going through all your threads. What I understand your argument to be, is how can two conflicting religions who claim Christ both be truly christian? Isn't this what you're postulating? That one has to be in error? That one is wrong while the other is correct? And between your religion and ours, you don't believe we're the correct one; hence, we are not christian?

Everything you've written on this subject points to that. If you want me to, I can pick this apart thread by thread to supports this.....How many references/quotes do you want from this topic? Why is it so difficult for you to openly admit this?! How easy for you to point your fingers at those of us who are LDS, but not consider the three pointing back at you! This strikes me as comical. Please tell what you do believe, if this is not it.....

Wow, Rider, So what this really comes down to is that you don't believe LDS people to be christian, right?!?! Wow, it's nice to finally hear what you've been implicating all along. Thanks for sharing! All this beating around the bush, the cat and mouse game, the cornering, etc., etc., and this all comes down to your belief that we are not christian. LOL So what else is new? As so many have said, we are well aware of all the people who disbelieve our christianity...... Any other points?!

Rider, I think we're dealing with layers of issues here...... People who seriously consider themselves "christian" don't take kindly to being told they're not......generally, in their sincere heart's, they believe they are. I say "generally" because no doubt there are many people of all faiths who are not Christ-like.... So, on that level, your point is rather devisive-We all tip toe around this issue out of concern of alienating one another with different beliefs, by calling them something other than what they consider themselves to be......Your point in this seems rather offensive to me.....why give cause for there to be contention? Why draw such a line in the sand and make people choose sides? Why presume to call others names? Such as non-christian? On another level.....yes, I do believe that a person who has been given an opportunity/offering of the truthfulness and fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and then turns from it, is not following Him. We can then deduce he/she is not a "christian." But, don't forget the verse in the Bible, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Who are any of us to presume who denies Christ? It's not mine to judge! That is up to God. It is mine to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost in my heart, along with the scriptures, to follow the course God has set forth to bring me home. How could I honestly call myself christian if I turned from this? It reminds me of the parable of the beam and the mote. It is mine to lead by example. It is mine to invite others to follow Him. It is not mine to label or tear down anyone else for their beliefs. I've heard a lot of what you believe through this thread. Are you saying baptism is not necessary to follow Christ?

Lattelady, Thank you for your sincere efforts to work this through. I do not feel you are here to antagonize other LDS people for their beliefs....this thread shows to me you are truly interested in understanding the differences in what we believe. Much appreciated. I hope you are aware that the LDS community is hurting because we are so often attacked by other "mainstream" (for lack of a better word) christian religions.....I believe we feel ostracized from the christian community in general...and it smarts. I myself have been quite persecuted by my in-laws, and have heard criticism many times of my religion by their congregation, because I am LDS. I first became aware of how much antagonism there can be towards the LDS people at the onset of my mission. I served in Washington state, which arguably could be the "anti-mormon" capitol of the nation. It's hard not to be understood by other religions, to be maligned and flat out slandered. So much of the critical information given by people denigrating our religion is not true. It's difficult not to be given a fair chance or valid platform......but, so it is. This is not to say that is your intent here. I agree with you concerning JohnDoe. He is rather sharp in his words and has a narrow attitude towards anyone he perceives even disagrees with our beliefs. JohnDoe, I'm not trying to offend you. Please kindly consider the possible truth in our words. You do seem defensive and quick to "pull the trigger" so to speak in your conversation towards others..... Lattelady, I would invite you to read the many verses in the Book of Mormon that expressly say that without Jesus Christ and his atonement for us, we would all be lost, regardless of all our "efforting." Here is one of the many verses given concerning the need for the atonement in the Book of Mormon: 7 Wherefore, it must needs be an ainfinite batonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the cfirst judgment which came upon man must needs have dremained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. 8 O the awisdom of God, his bmercy and cgrace! For behold, if the dflesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who efell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the fdevil, to rise no more. 9 And our spirits must have become alike unto him, and we become devils, bangels to a cdevil, to be dshut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of elies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who fbeguiled our first parents, who gtransformeth himself nigh unto an hangel of light, and istirreth up the children of men unto jsecret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. 10 O how great the agoodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our bescape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, cdeath and dhell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. To me this is very clear as to our need for the atonement. There are so many blessings we believe will be given us though, that are hingent upon wether we "put our money where our mouth is" in following the Saviour and His teachings...It is not enough to simply say we believe in Christ and His sufferings on the cross for us. It is necessary to show our faith in this through our works. "Faith without works is dead," according to even the Bible. One way I look at it that helps me understand that requirement of our best efforts to obtain the presence of the Saviour and God, the Father is the following. When Christ suffered on the cross for us, taking our sins upon Him, He gave all that He had to the Father, to save and redeem us. He did all he could for our salvation. He gave everything. While we, as mortals, are fallen/broken/lost in our natural state without His atonement; still, the Father requires the same offering from us to warrant His presence. That we give Him/the Saviour all that we have and are in becoming more like Him and coming back into His presence. I just wanted to clarify something. The atonement provides immortality to the whole of humankind as a free gift. All of us will be resurrected at the last day. All will receive a glorifed, immortal, perfect body at the last day. For us, returning to live in God's presence, what we call "Eternal Life," is hingent on whether or not we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Redeemer, and give all to live according to His gospel...... I hope this helps and makes sense a little more our beliefs on this.

I am not ashamed about what I believe, or about talking about it generally as I express my experience in life.... What I don't do is expect/demand someone to believe the way I do, neither do I demand or cajole them to listen to me......If they are interested in finding out more about my beliefs/religion, I am more than happy to share. This is upon their invitation. Yes, I do explain my beliefs to my friends of other faiths. But I never coerce them into believing in my way or go into depth without their invitation..... None of us are insisting you leave your church to join ours. That would be expressly against our teachings. If one knows much of anything about our beliefs, he/she would know our teachings on agency. That it is not ours to force anyone to Heaven/God. Rider, your posts are becoming increasingly angry/inflammatory as this thread goes on. If you have such a grievance against our beliefs, what are you doing on this forum? Why come here and antogonize/attack us for what we believe? You have about as much tact as if I were to go to Rome and criticize the catholics. How rude! You know, you could always start your own forum based on your religious beliefs.....why not? Are you more interested in the tearing down of other people for their beliefs than you are in building them up by sharing what you have found to be true in your life's experience? It's pretty funny how much hatred and antagonism I've witnessed from those who do call themselves christian. I'm just curious if you feel you have followed one of the greatest commandments given by the Saviour in the New Testament throughout this thread. "Love thy neighbour as thyself..." I certainly haven't seen you do so. People's anger towards mormons on a mormon forum quickly becomes tiring to me. Why not do your own thing if you think we're so wrong?

This is to the OP, Wow, what a sensitive subject for everyone involved......Most every other "christian" religion over and over again accuse the mormons of not being christian. I think it's ironic that you would bring up this talk, and frame it so that all of the LDS responders feel on the defensive about our beliefs, and not wanting to offend you as a non-lds person....Your tone strikes me as rather baiting, and looking to pick a fight..... First of all, as a person of LDS membership, I am not here to tell anyone who they are or what they believe.....that's up to their own self-honesty and reconciliation with their creator.....It's not mine to intervene or butt in and tell them all about themselves. Having been on the receiving end of the bitterness of non mormons towards me as a mormon, that seems highly presumptive. Secondly, do you believe in the Bible? If so, I believe the New Testament is replete with the example of the Saviour being baptized and with Him (the Saviour) bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost upon His baptized followers......To take your bait, yes, according to Joseph Wirthlin's talk, and our doctrine, to truly be a "christian" requires one to follow the Saviour into the waters of baptism and to be given the gift of the Holy Ghost. According to LDS doctrine as I understand it, being baptized is making a covenant with God to keep His commandments, to obey Him, to take the Saviour's name upon us, and to always remember Him. Of course this would mean to live one's life in accordance to His teachings. It makes sense to me that baptism would need to be done by one actually called upon by God to do so; hence the need for the priesthood authority. Maybe this does mean you are not a "true christian" according to the LDS definition...... Does this mean you have to agree?! I don't think so....neither does it mean that you can't call yourself a christian. Most mainstream christian religions have certainly taken it upon themselves to call the LDS people anything but christian. Does that mean we're not? I don't think so. I think it's up to you to decide who you are and what you choose to follow. I'm not going to presume to tell you what that is...... One thing I am happy to say about my religion is how heavily we do rely on the promptins of the Spirit to guide us to truth. I would invite you to go to God for yourself to understand if what we claim is true. If not, isn't that our problem/riddle to solve, not yours? If it is true, and this is truly the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints....If you would profess to truly follow Jesus Christ, wouldn't this be something to sobrely consider?

Hey, Honestly, I don't know enough about paganism to give and educated answer about it.....I know a lot of pagan traditions have come down through christian holidays, like the Christmas tree, Halloween, and others I'm sure are there and unaware of. I have observed that the LDS people celebrate these holidays, and the pagan influences inherently in them, with abandon. We celebrate Christmas with the Christmas tree, we celebrate Halloween with ghoulish fun, LOL...(a little humor there). I think the reason we do so is because we know the inherent symbolism is what we make out of it. We don't worship any other God besides God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. However, the Christmas tree is benign to decorate, and Halloween is for the kids to have fun dressing up and getting treats. We use it for that end, and not the satanic goings on of the occult. We don't actually worship or do any of the rituals associated with paganism. No satanism, or worshipping of the different gods. I'm actually interested in finding out more about paganism. I strongly believe in the LDS religion. I am interested in learning how paganism has influenced our culture. I also find that the core of major religions most often have inspired truths to offer. I would hope to find these in paganism as well. Please realize I am speaking my own opinion, and this in no way represents the official position of the LDS church on this matter.......

Actually, Maxel, Changed was quoting from 2 Nephi 2, the discourse given by father Lehi about how there is opposition needed in all things. The passages quoted by Changed are referring to the need for opposision in order for there to be contrasts between light and dark, good and evil. This does not refer to the great intercessory prayer given by the Saviour asking that all of us become one in Christ......

Sorry, I don't get the point you are making in quoting this scripture in context to what I wrote.... Are you saying that there is a need for contention and competition among God's people? Are you familiar with the great intercessory prayer given by the Saviour? Quoted both in the New Testament and Book of Mormon?

You know, it's this kind of "competition" in the gospel, and in christianity generally, that leaves me so turned off.... I really like the budhist concepts of being at one with each other and the universe, of living in harmony and helping each other. So often in this western civilization it is so much about competition....who's doing better than who, and therefore, who has the right to "lord" his/her works and judge others for not doing what he/she thinks they should. In many ways, the gospel is more about a broken heart and a contrite spirit......the state/frame of our hearts as we set about serving our God......I remember the great commandment to "love thy neighbour as thyself." There's a reason this is the greatest commandment! I think the christian world/lds world in general falls far short of the mark in having a "pure heart." We miss the intrinsic/inner workings for doing these "works." We make the commandments a check list on our high road to heaven. So disgusting, as I've felt so often judged by good "christian" folk for not living their standards. It hurts, and leaves me wanting to turn away from "christianity" altogether....

Some ideas came to my mind as I was reading your opening OP.... One thought that came to mind was, aren't all of us like the prodigal son in that all of us sin and fall short of the glory of God? There's a verse in Isaiah that says, " All we, like sheep, have turned astray; we have turned everyone, to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on Him (Christ) the iniquities of us all." All of us sin and fall short, hence the need for the atonement....... I don't agree that the scriptures in this story state thats the prodigal son can never again obtain all that his Father has. To me, this negates the power of the atonement for the truly penitant person. Again, all of us sin and, in order to return home to the Father, must go through the process of "repentance." In the LDS Bible dictionary, it is explained that the greek version of repentance "denotes a change of mind, i.e. a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world." To me, true repentance includes a change of heart. All of us, everyone, must go through this change of heart and sanctification process (which I feel is done through the Holy Spirit) in order to be worthy of the presence of the Father.... Another thought that came to mind is the parable of the servants who worked for the master of the vineyard at varying times throughout the day....They were all paid the same amount, no matter what time of the day they started. The first servants who worked at the beginning of the day were upset that they were not paid more than the last servants who worked the last few hours of the day......If I recall correctly, basically what the master said is for them to be happy because they received what they had agreed to be paid in the first place, and to mind their own business concerning what he had agreed to pay the last.... What this says to me is to have trust in the Lord, that all of us will be judged justly/mercifully/fairly at the last day. Basically, for me, to not worry about/judge God on how He will deal with my fellow man, only to worry about how He will deal with me......kind of the same ideas a to the prodigal son.... I really believe that God will give each of us our due, whatever that may be. I'm so grateful for the atonement of Christ, for through this, instead of being condemned to eternal destruction, I am allowed to be alloted my "just deserts" with a given kingdom of glory; at least, if I don't become a "son/daughter of perdition".....

Whatever the issues here now, I sure do appreciate Utahrulzz and Cougarfan for their kind and respectful way of responding, even when they are disagreeing with another poster's comment....So much better than being harsh and derogatory in one's response towards another.... I'm sorry to hear Marie Osmond's daughter chooses to practice homosexuality. How sad! I'm so grateful I have always been comfortable and confident in my choice to be heterosexual....Sad for those who struggle with the issue..... I believe that we all have the right to live the gospel as strictly as we desire to. It's not ours to judge others for the extent they do; but, rather to love and exemplify what has hopefully brought us a fuller joy. I'm learning not judging others, for me, is really an issue of putting my trust in God and letting Him take care of His own sheep more than me calling the shots on how I think others should live; which, to me, crosses so many boundaries. While we want our "light to shine," for me this includes loving others in pointing to the way of living that will bring eternal happiness, rather than grabbing/breaking their arm into living what's mine to live, not theirs.....

What I was trying to say about the hair, beard and smoking combined, is that it is quite a statement, especially in a prominently mormon community, or amongst a mormon community as a minority. BTW, I smoke, and I have a brother who has worn a beard and long hair for years, and who strongly believes in the gospel. My non LDS husband likes to wear a beard, and I am just fine with that...... A great deal why I started smoking again (regrettably so) was to make a statement to the LDS people who I perceived as so unkind....I wanted to distance myself from the stigma of being LDS in Utah.... I was only saying that the picture combined seems to present quite a rebellion against the typical LDS values. I think it's unfair to presume anything about a person's heart. While a "mere hairstyle" may be "stupid" to you, it may be just one more way for him to distance himself from being LDS......

Ohh, I feel for you....this would be so hard! There have been so many times my mom and stepdad have invited "investigators" over for dinner to discuss religious beliefs. So often, after spending a lot of time, effort, and money to prepare the meal, they have been stood up....My mom expressed discouragement over this as well.... Some ideas are; Maybe working with their parent's, to see if they are in the loop as to the activities that are scheduled.... Maybe focusing on offering a loving friendship to the girls....maybe releasing your expectations of what they should or shouldn't be doing (like attending the activity) to make yourself feel better....Think of their needs more than fulfilling your calling through the beaten path of scheduling activities....It may be well to choose a different, unorthodox approach to reach these girls. Remember, the church activity is their for them, rather than the other way around. Prayerfully consider how you can reach out to them to help them develop a testimony of the Saviour's love for them. After all, you are His example to them right not as a young women's leader. Schedule something fun, for you and for them. Maybe an LDS movie, or going to a roller rink, or hike, or whatever. Bring a friend of yours along, so if they continue to stand you up, you can still make it worth your while/time/effort for doing it by enjoying the activity anyway...... I was so grateful to be a visiting teacher! I felt it an honor to go and visit with sisters in the ward.....I developed great friendships to those who were open to it. We had dinner together with one sister, she invited me to her daughers wedding long after I was released from that calling. Another person I visit taught I just friendshipped. I don't think in all the time I knew her I gave her a VT lesson. She was quite inactive and not interested/felt pressured by that. I just loved her. She would pray for me frequently. We were good friends. I believe she knew that I loved her. I felt loved by her. Ironcically, I had a visiting teacher who met with me only once over the course of a year. I assumed she had been released, only to find out when I asked to be assigned one, that she had been reporting that she had been visiting me without actually doing so. I admire your efforts to magnify your calling. This situation sounds strongly like it needs an imaginative, inspired approach. Just remember what it's really all about; Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are adesirous to come into the bfold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; 9 Yea, and are awilling to mourn with those that bmourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as cwitnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the dfirst resurrection, that ye may have eternal life— 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being abaptized in the bname of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a ccovenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you? (Mosiah 18: 8-10) You are doing a great job, my thoughts and prayers are with you.....