Snigmorder

You ought not feel any guilt. My argument is that (and this is all conjecture) sex for fun seems impractical in a marriage of (random number) 30 wives. And since keeping God's Commandments should not result in a decrease in ultimate happiness. It seems to me that sex for fun isn't necessarily part of the program of happiness. A desire for such things, at some point, might be jettisoned. And this is all in the context of what Changed said: "I think everyone has already agreed that the purpose of gender & intimacy is not just to have children."

Alma 42 is all about law, and the way it talks about law seems to suggest justice and mercy both come from God himself. I personally have never liked the idea of laws external to God. (I mean laws of justice, not laws of nature) If there are laws external to God, we can conclude one of two things. #1. Our Father is one of many gods in the celestial kingdom and the celestial kingdom has a legal apparatus to which God is beholden. or #2. There are uncreated forces that simply exist and they have specific moral requirements. Out of these to the first seems more likely, but I don't care for either of them.

Here's the complete statement "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." This could be read in a couple of ways. First way could be to think of the bold as a definition of the underline. As in "sparingly means, bold." The second way could be to think of the underline as the basic attitude towards meat a saint it should have. And the bold is what pleases the Lord in regards to meat. I trend towards the first, which definitely means vegetarian. This is how I read the passage: "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." But that's just me. I don't have any particular conviction as to whether people should eat meat or not.

Definitely. Of course, it's not a commandment, but words of wisdom.

The word of wisdom definitely says go vegetarian unless in times of cold, winter, or famine. People will bring up the comma added in 1921. But that was due to a change in vernacular. The Church previous to 1921 interpreted the passage as vegetarian. "Only" in their day meant "execpt" and no comma was needed. Section 49:18-19 says anyone preventing meat consumprion is not of God. (I'm redacting my previous statement EDIT) I went and read the circumstances under which section 49 was given and it was given to a convert who used to be a shaker. According to the header, shakers would prevent you from getting married and some from eating meat. For your reading pleasure, here's a website full of statements from church leaders and scriptures about meat consumption: http://josephsmithfoundation.org/faqs/11-meat-should-we-eat-meat-if-so-how-often-and-when/

I disagree. There's no such thing as sex for fun in a marriage with 30 wives, which is what "intimacy without children" necessarily means. And I refuse to believe that plural marriage is a downgrade or worse condition than monogamy considering many people are sealed in such marriages. Following God's Commandments should not ultimately lead to unhappiness. Therefore, "sex because you want it" is probably not a godly attribute. And if the purpose of sex and gender is not expressly for the creation of children, and the very purpose of eternal life and happiness being the family unit, the gods might as well be asexual Platonists that regenerate like bacteria.

Here's how I understand it. "And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man;" (First we see that God caused plants to grow from the ground in the garden of Eden.) "and man could behold it." (we see here that, that which was made in the spirit is now made manifest on earth) "And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it;" (essentially saying: it became a living soul, because I had already created it in the spirit. Or, here's why it could be a soul at all, because I had already made it in the spirit) "for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it," (This could simply mean, that the living things which were made in the spirit, remained in the spirit until their time on earth came. Sphere means manner of existence. For example, we live in a mortal sphere or probationary sphere, and the spirit plants live in a spiritual sphere.) "yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man;" (Self-explanatory.) Here's what I make of section 93:21, 23-32 21 "And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;" 23 "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;" 24 "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;"(Truth is the Plan of Salvation and every law, ordinance, and principle that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. The truth remains the same from age to age, and men are saved if they believe the truth, but damned if they believe not the truth.) 25 "And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning." 26 "The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;" (Christ went from grace to grace and obtained salvation by obtaining truth.) 27 "And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments." 28 "He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things." 29 "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (One of the great truths of our universe, is that it is bursting with intelligent beings, and there are certain things which cannot be changed, such as their eternal nature.) 30 "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence." (I take this to mean that within this mortal sphere, the truth exists regardless of whether we know it or not, or whether we believe it or not. The truth will have its way, and intelligences will have their way. Without this sphere of choice provided to us by our Father, we simply are in a state of stagnation and idleness. Indeed, Adam and Eve lived in a state of damnation until they interacted with the moral choice provided them.) 31 "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light (truth.)" 32 "And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation."

Not just animals, but plants too. "And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it;" - Moses 3:9

Reminds me of Jesus spitting into some dirt and rubbing the mixture onto a blind man's eyes. Certainly a strange miracle.

It would certainly be appropriate to seek answers as an endowed temple patron while inside the temple. But I'm not sure asking the people in charge of the temple would profit much. If you're talking about a visitors center, It's perfectly fine to ask.

Exactly, the task of the missionaries is to each the doctrines and the origins of the restoration by the power of testimony and of the Holy Ghost.

A book I would like to recommend is "Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses" by Richard Lloyd Anderson

Absolutely not, thank you for asking. The very first thing that should be said, is that in situations like these, is always seek your Father in prayer and have faith. I'll link some websites and other things that have helped me with questions like these. https://www.fairmormon.org/ this website has a feature where you can ask them directly through email, and I have used it liberally. https://rsc.byu.edu/ this is a trove of research papers and other such things. https://publications.mi.byu.edu/people/hugh-nibley/ Hugh Nibley's books and publications, lots of useful material here. Most can be read for free on the site. http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/ another website full of excellent papers. Now for those other things. Here's the text version of a presentation given by Daniel C. Peterson wherein he explains why Joseph had plates in a purely secular sense, I think it's very interesting and I recommend you read it. https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2016/logic-tree-life And here's a video that I find helpful, a presentation given by a Mormon historian. https://youtu.be/CCVvoC2PXtM Feel free to send me a private message if you have any questions.

Thank you, likewise.

There's a pseudepigraphaI Book called the book of Adam and Eve or the book of Adam or something, from Ethiopia (I think.) It contradicts the book of Moses in a few important details. But it talks as though Adam and Eve have been clothed in a mortal skin from their previous form (which, in this book, was some kind of brilliant divine form) prior to their exiting the garden. And later Adam and Eve complain about the elements and the dirt on their bodies and desire clothing. So God leads them to a sheep which has fallen and has them gather the skins and from them, via an angel, he prepares clothing. So at least someone thought of the skins they acquired in the garden as mortal skins. Here's what the book of Moses says about it: "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they had been naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons." – Moses 4:13 (We see here that Adam and Eve first tried to cover their nakedness) "And they heard the voice of the Lord God, as they were walking in the garden, in the cool of the day; and Adam and his wife went to hide themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And I, the Lord God, called unto Adam, and said unto him: Where goest thou? And he said: I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I beheld that I was naked, and I hid myself." – Moses 4:14–16 (We see here that because of their nakedness, they desired to be hidden from the Lord) Here's the part about the skins: "Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them." -Moses 4:27

In my opinion it's not her business to "hate the sin and love the sinner." It's her business to humble herself before her infirmities and humble herself before his infirmities and love the man without sanctimony. The man is well aware that there are people who don't like homosexuality. He likely does not have the framework or intelligence (LDS intl.) to understand and accept any degree of chastisement or disapproval from her in a way that is edifying. And as far as chastisement goes, we should leave that to the bishops, that includes who does and does not get to take the sacrament.

Excuse me.

My position is that, at the very least, based on 63, there is a "pregnancy" involving the woman. Or in other words, the woman's body is required for the generation of the spirit. I assume that this pregnancy is reached by sexual means. But I don't rule out other possibilities, such as conception by the Spirit such as with Mary. Also, in your first reply to me, it seems you edited in happy things (or I just didn't see them). If I had seen them I wouldn't have taken such a blunt and cold tone with the whole thing.

@Carborendum My understanding of the passage is that without punishments for broken law, God would have no authority. Similar to a government that doesn't enforce it's laws, it would have no authority. Or parents which say "i'll take your toy if you misbehave" but don't actually take it when the child misbehaves, they have no authority. I don't read it to mean that God would somehow disintegrate or some external authority would remove his exaltation. And there were definitely punishments for broken laws in the pre-existence, just look at the one third of the hosts of Heaven which were thrust down.

@Mike Correct, that is my point of view. "But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him #1. to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, #2. and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, #3. and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." D&C 132:63 "it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." D&C 132:19 "Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection." – Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Page 301

God himself made tunics of skins for Adam and eve. God knew they were naked. Adam and Eve did not know until they had a knowledge of good and evil. It is not good to be naked.

I'm gonna have to look up some commentary on 63 seeing as how the passage can be read both ways. And I wonder, when the passage says "souls" is it talking about a body or a spirit? Because in scripture like the book of Mormon soul and spirit are synonymous.

"for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men;" - D&C 132:63 Women bear the souls of men in eternity, I don't know what else that could be except for a literal pregnancy. Whatever a pregnancy means for them, a woman's body is required. Sexual intercourse existed long before this earth and it will continue to exist along after it. The flash-in-the-pan lifeforms that dwell here could never, world without end, change what sex it is or define what it is. It is only what God says it is. The body is not the dirty and "naughty" toy the world esteems it to be.

We know that women definitely give birth to spirits in eternity, this is scripturally established and expressly declared by revelation in Doctrine and Covenants section 132:19, 63. Whether this involves sexual intercourse or a "virgin birth" like Mary, I can't say for absolute certain. But it is my strong opinion that the begetting of spirits is nothing less then complete sexual intercourse between man and wife. The world does not get to define what sex is and is not. It has not the power to make sex dirty or to make it evil. This earth is a probation, and when the kingdom comes, the vain and ignorant philosophies of men will be removed from out of their place and burned. Ultimately the begetting of children is for the exalted only. It is for the perfected only. It is for the gods only. There is nothing more consecrated, sacred, or glorious in all the wide expances of eternity, than this.

A Nazi branch president excommunicating a Nazi dissenter in Nazi Germany has nothing to do with the church. Applying blame to the church isn't even a stretch, there's simply nothing there. It's as if Mormonheart was poised at the door looking for an excuse.