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This is an assumption on your part. The text offers us no such judgement. "shouting distance" is close enough to give us an idea. He had to shout, but it's not so far that shouting can't be heard. The only way the rod can both lead to the tree and extend along the bank of the river while the river flows away from the tree is if the rod stops at shouting distance from the tree - that is, the rod has to stop at the head of the river. So one must travel "shouting distance" without the benefit of the rod or path. If that's how you want to imagine it, I reckon that's as valid as my version (which honestly, has a pretty short rod, it being only shouting distance long). Alternately, the rod continues past the head of the river and beyond the banks of the river (and the path also), and that was never mentioned. Please note that I consider all this unimportant. Though I thoroughly disagree that there is any reason whatsover to think that either the head of the river or the river itself was ever good. I see absolutely nothing in the text to suggest or even allow it - and to my mind, you haven't offered anything other than your own assumptions to support your assertion that it started out good and went bad. The idea makes for a good teaching tool: the gospel is pure when it comes from Christ and the farther it gets from Christ the more corrupt it becomes. I just don't see Lehi's vision trying to teach that.

This cannot be the least bit concerning or surprising to any member of the Church - our congregations are geographically defined. So of course the people living near each other are also going to have similar incomes. That's not the Church's intent, fault, or design - it's just a natural fact of life. Other religions allow people to decide for themselves where to attend. The can attend near where they live, or far. Thus, the attendees could be more economically diverse.

Welcome to ThirdHour, @Simon Daum!

He makes a pretty convincing argument that the Republicans and the Democrats are in the process of swapping their views on things like war, environmental protection, free speech, big corporations, etc. Me either. But it's interesting. And I'm all in favor of reducing the power of the various "industrial complexes" (not that I actually believe this will happen before the Second Coming, but I'm all in favor of it). This is America. Someone's always making a lot of money off it.

L+L = Laman and Lemuel S, N, S = Sariah, Nephi, Sam (both groups near the head of the river, L+L a little farther; distances and sizes may not be to scale ) Start at the lower left.

To me, you just said: "I agree. I disagree." I'm very confused. Apparently, I need to draw. I'll go find a piece of paper and a pencil. Might be a while.

It makes perfect sense to me. I have no trouble with the idea that "fountain" is poetic (for lack of a better word) for "river". I think they drowned in the river. In the gulf that separates the tree from the great and spacious building - aka, the river canyon.

I realize they didn't use commas. But the repeated use of "and" was used in ancient Hebrew as a sort of "separator" similar to our use of commas today. I see the commas and the ands and don't see why you think anything other than: there's a rod of iron that led to the tree the rod of iron extended along the bank of the river How can it do both of these unless the river goes toward the tree? I suppose you think it means that the river flows from the tree (how it does that when the head is not the tree, but shouting distance from the tree, I don't know). The picture in my head has the rod of iron going to the tree. On one side is the path, which also goes to the tree, but obviously both would stop just short of the tree. Parallel to both, but on the other side of the rod of iron is the river. It doesn't go to the tree, but flows past it. If it goes to the tree, what? Does is its whole length a shouting distance, and it goes from the head to the tree? Or from the head to the tree and under/around it? I think it flows past the tree. This is what the text describes. I don't believe it describes the river flowing away from the tree.

https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Fount ?? I fail to see the problem. Are you thinking that because the word "fountain" was used, that it must have been good water? It couldn't possibly have been a fountain of filthy water? Or.... I fail to understand why a filthy river isn't a good enough understanding of what the vision portrayed. Anyway, as I said before, I don't really see an issue with you choosing to present an alternate interpretation of the dream in order to teach some true doctrine. Knock yourself out.

I never said I thought there were two rivers. I think there was exactly one river. I acknowledged that if someone wanted to, they could believe that the head of the river let water split into multiple rivers, or let the river flow away from the head in two directions, but I personally don't believe that. I see absolutely none of this in the descriptive text. So the head of the river is shouting distance from the tree - that doesn't mean it "flows from the tree of life". This vision does not have to match up with other scriptural visions which depict that. There's no reason it can't stand on its own and serve its own purposes.

The path and the rod led to the tree... and ... also led by the head of the fountain. Thus the head of the fountain (the source of the river) was near the tree. This cannot mean that the river "flows toward the tree". It has to flow "away from the tree." Please re-read verse 19. How does it extend along the bank of the river, and lead to the tree, unless the river also heads toward the tree?

My ward has a ward mission leader. Per the handbook 23.6.3, the bishop and stake president decide whether to have the calling.

I'm not going to parse through Nephi's experience. I'm just going to make notes on what information his experience adds to the points already made in Lehi's: The tree 11:4-6+ immediately suggest that the tree is representative of Jesus Christ. adds that its beauty exceeds all other beauty it is "precious above all" v22 - "it is the love of God" 15:36 - "greatest of all the gifts of God" Rod of Iron v25: Word of God "which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life" (the "or" says Nephi considers these to be the same thing - two ways of saying: "which waters are a representation of the love of God" (just as the tree is in v22)) Great and spacious building v35: "the world and the wisdom thereof", those who gather to fight against the apostles v36: "the pride of the world"; it will fall to destruction 12:18 - "vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men" 12:18 - this building is separated from something unnamed (we'll assume the righteous and the tree). IMO, the "great and terrible gulf" is carved out by the river. (on to chapter 12) Mist of darkness v4: probably not the same as in Lehi's vision, as this refers to the darkness that covers the Americas at Christ's death. v17: those from Lehi's vision are temptations of the devil (mention is also made here that could equate to the forbidden paths and strange roads) The river v16: To me, this verse is clearly saying that the "fountain of filthy water" is "even the river of which [Lehi] spake". The depths of this river are hell See above under "Great and spacious building"; I personally don't think the river started out clean (e.g. at its head) and got filthy, I think it was always meant to represent the depths of hell, the gulf between the wicked and the righteous. Obviously, this is figurative and there's talk of the justice of God and such. There are a lot of things that this river / gulf could symbolize. (NOTE: I think this is gulf as in a wide separation, not like "the gulf of Mexico".) 15:27 - the water "was filthiness" and Lehi didn't notice it. 15:28 - the river is "an awful gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life" 15:29 - the river represents hell 15:30 - Lehi saw that the justice of God divided the wicked from the righteous (on to chapter 13) Abominable Church Descriptors sound like that Great and spacious building. Bible, then BofM and restoration (on to chapter 14; nothing new to Lehi's vision; end of Nephi's time with the angel) (on to chapter 15 - Nephi explains his experience to the others; the vision in question isn't addressed until v21) Nothing to add other than the notes I inserted above. It is still clear to me that we simply have multiple terms used to describe the river which Lehi saw: river, fountain, gulf, depths of hell... The end.

OK, I'll do chapter 8 now and Nephi's chapters later. FWIW, I think there's no real point to this. I never see beyond the obvious. You may wish to pull up the chapter and follow along as I go in order, starting at v4. 1. "dark and dreary wilderness" - sounds a lot like the mortal, fallen world. I note that Lehi only sees it - doesn't mean he's in it... 2. A man dressed in a white robe. Good guy? Bad guy? It's uncertain. 3. Lehi follows dude and discovers that now he's in a "dark and dreary waste" - is this the same as the wilderness? Did we go through the wilderness and end up in the waste? I dunno. Meanwhile, his guide seems to have disappeared. 4. After many hours, he decides to pray and spots a large and spacious field. (Field suggests growth, living stuff; waste suggests absence of those.) Later, assuming it's the same field (and I think it is), it's described as "as if it had been a world". 5. And he see a tree. He goes and "partakes" of the fruit. fruit was desirable to make one happy sweeter than anything he'd tasted before whiter than anything he'd seen before fills the soul with exceedingly great joy 6. Wants his family to partake, so he looks around and sees a river. it ran along it was near the tree the head was "a little way off" (within shouting distance) flows toward the tree (see later; presumably past it) the rod of iron and the strait and narrow path come along its bank 7. The obedient members of his family are at the head of the river, but don't know where to go from there. Lehi has to use a loud voice to call to them (giving an idea of what "a little way off" means). Laman and Lemuel are somewhere in the general direction, but decline to come further. Presumably, they're farther away than the head of the river. The head of the river would be a spring, oasis, pond or something - water coming up from the ground and flowing from this spot. 8. He sees a rod of iron. It extends along the bank of the river. It leads to the tree. Thus, the river flows toward the tree - because the rod of iron that leads to the tree is along its bank. (The only alternative is that the river flows in two (or more) directions from its head (which might make two (or more) rivers, technically), but I don't know if that's a normal occurrence, and only one river is mentioned.) the rod of iron does not extend as far away from the tree as the path extends (see below) it appears to have a definite starting point (how else could folk catch hold of "the end" and come toward the tree?) it is unclear whether the rod of iron starts at/by/near the head of the river or closer to the tree than the head of the river. But he sees it when L&L refuse to come to the tree, so it's got to be somewhere in the vicinity, and since it's along the bank of the river, it probably doesn't start farther away than the head of the river. 9. Then he spots a strait and narrow path "comes along" by the rod of iron to the tree. in the other direction, it "led by" the head of the fountain (aka the head of the river) unto a large and spacious field (see #4). This suggests that the path terminates at the tree and if you walk the other direction, you go past the head of the river to "a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world" - presumably the other end of the path since: many people were trying to reach the path (I suppose they could be coming at it from the sides and it could extend through the entire field/world) tempting as it may be to think of the strait and narrow path in this vision as the covenant path, starting with baptism, the absence of a gate, the fact that it extends out into the field farther than the rod, suggests that this is simply the path to Christ, which can be started before covenants, but then continue after covenants (perhaps the rod represents the start of covenants) 10. After people start on the path, a mist of darkness shows up. dark enough that those on the path lost their way and wandered off and were lost but some continued on the path and caught hold of the end of the rod 11. After some fruit-eaters act ashamed, Lehi looks around and spots a great and spacious building. it stands as if in the air, high above the earth filled with all variety of people the people appear wealthy the people mock the fruit-eaters also called "strange building" v33 12. Those who were ashamed fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (IMO, no different from "strange roads" in v32.) 13. Various folk do various things. Some are "drowned in the depths of the fountain" - I still hold that "fountain" is synonymous with "river" and "head of the fountain" with "head of the river": v17 - Lehi looks toward "the head of the river" for L&L v19 - he sees a rod of iron along the bank of "the river" v20 - he sees the strait and narrow path by the rod of iron "and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field" - what can "the fountain" be other than "the river" in v17? The "also" and the fact that he's describing the path's course away from the tree (and the head of the river is away from the tree) leave no doubt in me that "river" and "fountain" are synonymous. If you need a visual, I suppose I could draw something awful. It would go like this: Dark & Dreary Wilderness Dude in white robe Dark & Dreary Waste Large & Spacious Field (all below are in the field) Start of the strait and narrow path Head of the river (off to one side and closer to the tree), river heads in the direction of the tree (but will pass along side rather than go to) Rod of iron (between path and river, closer to the tree or starts at the head of the river, not sure) Tree (terminus of rod and path) River flows on past the tree Across the river (anywhere along its length but within sight of the tree) is the great & spacious building All over the place are strange and forbidden paths/roads The end. I have not made a great effort to edit this. Hopefully it makes sense.

In preparation for this, I used BlueLetterBible.org to look up the Hebrew for "fountain" when it appears in the Old Testament. This confirms my personal belief that what got translated into English as "fountain" has nothing to do with anything constructed - it is a well, spring, or source (and other surprising things in one entry). Here are the three different Hebrew terms that have been translated as "fountain" in English: 'ayin ma'yan maqor Also in preparation, I'll mention that when I dissect chapter 8, it will be in isolation, without the hindsight of Nephi's interpretation - I will treat it as it is. Then I will move on to Nephi's vision. As far as I can tell, Nephi did not see Lehi's vision - he saw bits and got the interpretations (which was what he asked for). Further, Nephi's vision didn't follow the same sequence as Lehi's - Nephi starts out with the interpretation of the tree (the end of Lehi's vision). I see no reason to assume that everything Nephi saw or commented on ties back to something that Lehi saw. Certainly, Nephi got all the important interpretations of the symbols in Lehi's vision, but he also got a lot more. FWIW. (Maybe I'll get to more tonight, maybe not. At this point, I don't intend to tackle it until tomorrow.)

Jordan Peterson talked with someone named Mary Harrington, where she talked about "the female hero's journey" (the link should jump you to the start of the bit: 51:43 - 56:44, so only 5 minutes - less if you speed it up like I do1). I found the whole video interesting, but you might find this snippet interesting. 1She's the first person in a long time I couldn't listen to at 2x (had to slow down to 1.75, which is annoying, because Peterson speaks incredibly slowly to my ears).

Maybe we should get @Jamie123 to do drawings for us!

That's not a fast thing as I'll have to read and dissect 6 chapters of the Book of Mormon... I'm not up to it tonight, but I'll try tomorrow if nothing interferes.

There would have been no point in me replying if I thought you did. I never said otherwise. Nor does what I say require one to believe otherwise. I'm saying "fountain" is used in two distinct ways with two distinct meanings, only one of which (the "filthy" one) was a part of Lehi's vision (even if Lehi didn't notice the filthiness (as later explained by Nephi)).

I don't think there's anything we would call a "fountain" at all. I think the water or river is the "fountain". This could be rendered: "...which led to the fountain of living waters (a.k.a. the tree of life);..." First, I don't think the two uses of "fountain" are the same (I think Nephi brings in, as part of his own imagination / experience / editorial of the vision, a second fountain). Second, well, letting folks dive into the depths of hell is part of the love of God - he loves them enough to respect their agency, tragic though it may be.

I'm not saying "head" and "fountain" are the same thing, I'm saying "head of the river" and "head of the fountain" are the same thing.

What makes you think it's a good fountain? There's no indication at all of it being good or bad. FWIW, I've always thought that in 8:20, "the head of the fountain" was saying "the head of the river". I think there is one river. I think the "head of the river" and "head of the fountain" are two ways of saying the same thing. I think when Nephi, in 11:25, describes the tree of life as also being "the fountain of living waters" that there's no relation to the "head of the fountain" or the river. Rather, I think he's just adding more ways to describe the tree of life. #6: I don't think there were two visual representations of the love of God. I think Nephi, upon realizing that the tree of life represents the love of God, chooses to add in his own editorial analogies, ones that he's perhaps more familiar with (Isaiah and Jeremiah use similar words). 12:16 seems to me to say that the fountain and river are one, that they are filthy and "the depths thereof are the depths of hell". NOTE: None of that is to say that your interpretation isn't useful. But I don't think it was intended.

Welcome, @Forensic Mormon! As @pam said, talk to your bishop. He has the keys to help you. You may wish to check out this recent thread: The counsel is the same!

It is my opinion that one of the reasons President Nelson said it wouldn't be possible to survive the coming days without the Spirit is not just to discern deception when the enemy presents it, but also to learn those things which we individually (or as families) need to know to progress and prepare ourselves as much as possible for whatever comes. So I see no issue with the Lord helping you to see something, know what's coming, and using that knowledge to prepare your family so that they in that much better prepared.

My understanding of this issue specifically is that they're getting told stuff that isn't true - thus, they're not actually informed. Note that they didn't go into detail in the Peterson podcast, and all I know so far is what's on the website and what was in the podcast. Heaven knows. So far, it seems they have an event with speakers, singers, and comedians scheduled, and that's about it. I guess listening to all that will tell us more... Some of the social media links have videos / interviews that shed some light (video on X, for example). FWIW. (Mostly I figured folks here would be more aware than I am, since I live under a rock. )