zil2

Very well written response. I believe I agree with every word. It expands on my comment about how it really depends on what one means by "hate". We all think we know, until we're experienced enough to realize that we might not, and that whether we do or not, our understanding may differ from everyone else's at which point, one word isn't enough to communicate with.

Per the Joseph Smith Translation, it wasn't God, but Pharaoh who hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Alma 10 v6: "I knew...yet I would not know" - how often do we resist the things we know to be true, wishing other things were true, or acting contrary to what we know? Quit rebelling and choose better. v7: Don't wait for an angel - do good whenever the opportunity presents itself. v10: Amulek has two witnesses (Alma and the angel); Alma and Amulek make two witnesses. There's always more than one. v11: The prophet doesn't have to be physically present in your house for you to receive the prophet and be blessed thereby. v13-16: Be wary of the lawyers... v17: How important it is to have the companionship of the Holy Ghost! v22-23: If ever the righteous are cast out, make sure you're among them! v25: Amulek was "all in". v31: @Jamie123, if you haven't found it already, there's a pronunciation guide at the back of the Book of Mormon (even in the app), should you wish to check your pronunciational assumptions for names like Zeezrom. v32: Conflict of interest - this will be expanded on in the following chapters.

A child of God, yes - as in, God is the Father of our spirits. Loved by him is up for disagreement - there are scriptures wherein the prophet who wrote them states that God hated such-and-such group or person. But then there's the scripture I quoted where God weeps for the loss of some of his children who have chosen to be so wicked that there's nothing left to do but end their mortality. So, were the prophets wrong? Do they have a different definition of "hate"? (I'm convinced that though we all use the word, we don't all have the same understanding of what it means, since we can't feel each others' feelings.) Does God now hate Satan and those who chose to follow Satan? I don't know. Pretty sure @Vort would say God does hate Satan, at least. I sometimes wonder if he (and those prophets mentioned above) define "hate" as a collection of words and actions rather than as an emotion one feels. If so, one could feel the emotion of love and yet speak and act "hate" - thus God weeps as he destroys the wicked. I don't know. I said somewhere else that for a brief period (maybe a year?) I felt what I consider real and complete hatred for someone. Eventually, I came to myself. I recognized this as something straight from the depths of hell and rejected it. It had taken some duration to "build up" into the blackest and most evil of emotions, but it vanished (if I recall correctly) in an instant. And at that time, I promised I would never let myself feel that emotion again. And I haven't. Should I "hate" Satan? Not if it means feeling an emotion that I believe only Satan could inspire. Is there a "Godly hate"? I don't know. I'm certainly not going to follow Satan or give him place in my heart. No idea where that leaves me - indifferently opposed to him? Dismissive? I don't know. Well, actually, and I think I mentioned this in our reading, there's no conflict between this and the above proposition. God is the Father of our Spirits. And Christ adopts us through covenants and becomes our adoptive father if we keep our covenants. At least, this is the only way I can understand it. This article that @mikbone posted (thank you, @mikbone!) goes into detail on the ways in which Christ can be called "father". For some reason, I have no trouble whatsoever believing that God knew each of us so well that he knew what decisions we would make given a set of conditions. And thus, by initiating the sequence with Adam and Eve, he could predict with perfect accuracy what each of us would do. While it may seem the same as controlling our actions, the reality is simply that he knows us completely. We are still free to do whatever we will, but he knows us well enough to know what we will. And with that knowledge, he arranges the best possible mortal experience for each of us (where "best" is truly the best, not our mortal perception of "oh, my, this is wonderful"). For some reason, others struggle with the idea.... Well, all is "now" with God (or so it's suggested), so no zipping needed. Either way, the mortal mind does indeed boggle. It's unfortunate that Hugh Nibley's work is no longer available online for free (that I can find). I think you would enjoy the chapter of Approaching Zion where Nibley talks about how God's mind is infinite and ours singular.

I know what it says. I can go read it myself (and re-did that before posting). I asked what you meant. It shouldn't take paragraphs of quoting to answer what you meant. Nowhere does the essay say that the priesthood ban was revealed by God. Nowhere does it say that the priesthood ban was not revealed by God. The essay is silent on whether the ban was by revelation from God or was of man. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lacking in reading comprehension. The essay comments on the facts of the ban (who did what when). The essay comments on after-the-fact explanations and justifications which various parties used to explain the ban. Only these after-the-fact explanations are rejected. Nothing in the essay negates that statement. Other parties can twist and distort and believe what they will. That was not my question and cannot be my concern. My only concern is to reiterate and ensure there is no confusion on your part (nor on the part of others who will read this) that the essay is silent on the question of whether the ban was instituted by God. Therefore, no one can use the essay to say "it wasn't revealed by God" (nor to say similar things such as, "it was instituted by Brigham Young because he was racist") - you cannot use the essay to support such an assertions, because it doesn't.

(The sad reaction is teasing only. You have remarkable will power! )

Please state what you mean by "this". It seems like you mean "the priesthood ban for men of black African descent was not inspired". If that's what you mean, the "Race and the Priesthood" essay says no such thing. If you mean something else, I can't figure out what.

Well, good point, but on the other hand, I think the Lord goes to extremes to make it clear how to be one of those people and wants us to have the assurance that we're "on his good side", so to speak. My understanding (yes, LDS) of these events suggests that those who will be destroyed are those of a telestial glory or less (aka perdition). These are the truly wicked - those who love their wickedness. I won't enjoy seeing or hearing about the destruction of anyone really, but a world without the most wicked (murderers, child traffickers, and such) would be welcome. Destruction may not seem like love, but I'm betting it's the most loving thing that could happen to someone - that God never destroys someone before it's the best thing for them - so they can stop heaping coals on their own heads, so to speak. In the Pearl of Great Price we have an extension of Enoch's story compared to what's in the Old Testament: While there are scriptures that talk about God "hating", this one seems pretty clear to me - God loves even the wicked, and weeps at their loss, that they won't "choose [him], their Father".

Alma 8 v1: Rest is OK. (Sometimes we beat ourselves up over taking time to relax.) v3: But don't be lazy. v11-12: This really sounds to me like the equivalent of the snotty teenager saying, "You're not the boss of me." v15: "Blessed are thou, Alma..." Whether or not we're blessed does not depend on the choices of other people. Being rejected does not mean you failed. The Lord measures in different ways than we do. And that's a good reason to "rejoice". Also, imagine how Alma felt to learn / recognize that it was the same angel who had first called him to repentance. v16: We are given adequate warning. We have only ourselves to blame when we don't heed the Lord. v17: I wonder how often God has prevented our destruction (by destroying the would-be destroyers) and we never recognized it for what it was. Of course, I have to believe God was thinking of Amulek and Zeezrom and all the others who would believe, and sent Alma back for them, too. v18: Speedily obey the Lord. v20: Amulek's "I am a Nephite" response makes me think that the city of Ammonihah must have been populated by a mixture of -ites and perhaps the Nephites were in the minority... (Though chapter 9 suggests otherwise.) v31: Sometimes, the Lord allows bad things to happen so that you and / or others can recognize God's hand in delivering you. Alma 9 We change from third to first person here, suggesting that Mormon just copied what Alma had written. v1-7: Sometimes, you have to be brave. Don't get distracted by the heckling - you don't have to answer that, just deliver the word of God. v8+: The importance of remembering (just shown in reverse). Also, all the "do ye not remember"s suggests that it was common for folks to be taught their history. v19-23: The greater the knowledge and witness you have received, the worse it is to sin against that. So don't do it, or, repent. v25: "sent his angel to visit many of his people" - I wonder what this will look like whenever we finally get the record. It doesn't seem like Lehi had any formal standing, just that he was called to go and prophesy (back in his day). I wonder if this "scattered" approach wasn't because it was necessary to reach all the people in a timely manner. In our day, and even in Joseph Smith's day, we have the ability to communicate widely much more quickly than ever before - between the printing press and electronic communication, we're like lightning compared to scribes copying messages and runners carrying them to be read... PS: Repent! v26+: We are taught that the Book of Mormon was written for our day, and if I'm being honest, I always saw that as a combination of teachings we need to learn, and examples of the bad stuff that will happen before the Second Coming. But I read this verse and think, it's also showing the hopeful anticipation of the righteous for his coming. Of late, I find myself not just looking forward to when the world (aka the wicked) will end, but also to the Lord's coming - actually hoping to still be alive for it.

As I was praying last night and thinking about this discussion, the impression came to me that I should suggest that anyone who is struggling would be blessed by forming a habit of daily study from the Book of Mormon. Choose for yourself how long to spend or how to approach it, but form a habit of being in the Book of Mormon every day with a sincere intent to come unto Jesus Christ. It may not make sense, but my own experience is that doing this consistently and persistently brings blessings. So I encourage everyone (actually, everyone, whether struggling or not) to give it a try and see whether, in a year or two, things aren't better than they were before you started.

Yeah, well, this particular community would say that at best, they're just pieces of cardboard, at worst, they invite Satan's influence.

It's entirely possible that I'm too goofy for words. Love your drawing. Would you like to know what you got right / wrong, or do you prefer to maintain the flattering image? (Klaw and the pen are the perfect additions, though.) Well, there's that Icelandic woman, or a vortex to consider. Vort's first fountain pen was a charcoal grey Lamy Safari, should you wish to include it... (No idea if there was a second one.) Personally, I think he should be using Colorverse Vortex Motion (from their Astrophysics series) as his "signature" ink. It looks black or dark grey (depending on the pen), but it's actually a dark muted purple with serious green sheen (a metallic silvery green sheen that appears after the ink is dry and may require the paper to be held at the right angle to the light if the pen doesn't put down enough ink to make it easily visible). From a very wet pen, the ink may actually look like a dark green, but that's the sheen. Unfortunately, this ink doesn't have very good lubrication (meaning it's not going to make your nib feel smoother than it is) and Colorverse inks are rather expensive, but still, it seems to fit...

Just make sure your tattoo artist knows how to spell... And how to space the words:

Well, technically, if you root the device, you can, but that's not so easy, and then there may be dependencies with some apps... It's practically a career. But you can remove the shortcuts, install your own launcher app (or even your own homescreen app - some launchers do both) and then hide all the icons for things you don't want or need. FWIW.

I think we're beating a dead horse. Obviously reason comes into play (if the prophet tells us to go out and do something that's always been a sin, of course one isn't going to do that). Obviously consistency with established teachings (in scripture and from other prophets and apostles) comes into play. But if one is doing the best they know - if no one ever taught them that X was a sin - no one, ever - and they had no reason (scripture, prophets, the Holy Ghost) to believe something a sin, then why do we think they'll be held to count for it? But frankly, these examples seem far-fetched to me. What potential sin is President Nelon asking us to commit? What righteous deed is he asking us not to do? How is he potentially putting our salvation at risk if we follow him?

Alma 6 v1-4: I don't know how other churches do it, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is big on records, not just of who the leaders are, but of the members - one of the reasons our wards are geographic and folks don't just attend wherever / whenever they choose. I find that the Book of Mormon has the strongest scriptural support for this practice of basically keeping track of the members. I wish all members understood why that's so important. v6: We should remember to pray for those who don't know God. This doesn't seem like a common thing happening in public prayers in the Church, but perhaps it should be. v8: Our teaching should always include Jesus Christ. Alma 7 v5: Don't make people wade through sorrow to help you find joy in Christ; if you have to wade through sorrow to help someone else find joy in Christ, it's worth it. v6+: Given Gideon's character, it's not surprising the people of the city named for him are in a better state than those in the capital city. When you're in a better state, you get to hear hopeful and encouraging sermons (with some reminders to avoid sin and continue to repent), as opposed to the "hellfire and damnation" sermons that are sometimes necessary when folk have gone astray. v8: Alma, perhaps more than any prophet in scripture, is very careful to be clear about what he does and does not know, and we can see at least one occasion where he later learned something he previously didn't know. v8: "...but this much I do know, that the Lord God hath power to do all things which are according to his word." This is a good thing to know, and a good reason to study his word and align your behavior accordingly. v11+: We have every reason to trust and turn to Christ, the one person certain to understand. v14: "mighty to save" - I always liked that phrase. It's a good thing to remember. v15: "come and fear not" - no need to fear Christ. v19: "making his path(s) straight" - I hope one day to learn whatever cultural thing makes this idiom make sense. I've got a good enough idea what it means, but the literal meaning doesn't make logical sense to me. v20: Would have to say pretty much the same thing about "one eternal round". v23: I don't remember exactly when it was that the idea of "easy to be entreated" finally sank through my thick skull, but ever since it did, I have tried hard to change my behavior accordingly. @Jamie123, in the Church, it's common for there to be sign up sheets sent around for any number of things (bringing food to someone recovering from surgery, feeding the missionaries, signing up to work a shift at one of the Church's various welfare facilities, etc.). It's also common for the people responsible for such things to call up and ask someone to help. Anyone who's been in charge of the sign ups or assignments knows that it's often hard to get enough people to sign up / accept the assignment, and there are some people you come to dread asking because of the way they respond. I hope I was never the latter, but there's no doubt I was not always "easy to be entreated". I've worked hard to change that - even if I don't want to do whatever is asked, I try to make it easy for the person doing the asking and never let them know whatever negative, whiny, selfish reaction I have to the request. v23-24: A good set of virtues to pursue.

Too much text in this thread, not enough stick drawings, so you get one I made for FPN: (Here's the thing that makes this funny: Sailor is the brand, Chushu - sounds like Chew Shoe - is the ink.)

Welsh sounds like strangling on your own tongue.

Ah, I've heard Zhoe, not sure I've heard the J. I'll have to ponder, but yes, I get it now.

LL = Y. J = H. I'm confused. Yay-EE-mee? (ETA: No, I guess YAY-mee. It's been a long time.)

I assumed that, but since I can't draw a human (other than as a stick person), I thought to take advantage of the 123... Since that's a Spanish name, I always read it the Spanish way: HI-may. In order to come close to sounding like Jamie, we need another vowel at the end...

This has not been thought of here (or elsewhere that I know of, but perhaps so on drawing-related forums). Sounds great, though I can't draw better than a stickman. But then, after considering, the drawing doesn't have to be a person - just as mine is a fountain pen, other people's could be anthropomorphized objects. The 123 in your user name is now forcing me to imagine you as a keyboard, rotary phone, calculator. Or perhaps you're prisoner #123, or the 123rd Jamie at the "People Named Jamie Convention"...

Alien concept to life-long Latter-day Saints. Kicking yourself in the back of the leg?

I don't think I'd call it that, but the general principle is well-documented: 2 Nephi 4:6 Doctrine and Covenants 68:25 Ezekiel 33:2–9 Jacob 1:19 Doctrine and Covenants 88:81–82 I won't go dig them up unless someone needs me to, but there are also plenty of scriptures which indicate that those who died without knowing the law will not be held accountable to it. So if the prophet says X is a commandment from God (but it's not) and we trust him because he is God's prophet and do X, how is that any different from those who don't have the law? We didn't have the law. As for "against my judgement" - well, isn't that the reason we have prophets, to keep us from turning "every one to his own way"?

Yeah, I wish we did that, but it seems contrary to our congregational nature - we don't even shout the "we'll sing and we'll shout" part of "The Spirit of God".... Also, our organists and pianists almost always play the hymns slower than they're meant to be played. I don't like it, but until I can do better, I'm not going to do more than express my dislike here on the interwebs. (And continue to pray for them. ) Klaw says we have to go outside now...