zil2

IMO, God himself refers to the other kingdoms as "lesser" and I don't think President Oaks' talk lines them up horizontally as if all are acceptable. He simply acknowledges that not everyone will make the same choices or seek the same ends. We tread on broken ice when we try to say they are all equally good.

Perhaps consider also that we all the time refer to "my way of doing X" when in reality, we likely learned it from someone else and we're not likely the only person who does it that way. And yet, because it is the way I do X, I call it "my way".

For all we know, God the Father didn't need to be saved any more than Jesus Christ needed to be saved. (And I personally think there are more than two options: needs to be saved, or is a Savior. At the very least, there ought to be a third, "perfect, but also not a Savior" - for all we know.) If the King Follett sermon argues against the plan being created initially by God, it does so not because God may have needed to be saved, but because God existed before attaining Godhood and prior to that, he had (presumably) not yet progressed far enough to have anticipated Godhood and a plan of salvation. But this is also speculation. We know nothing of God before he was God - if there even was a before (after all, when Christ was mortal, he was also God, and before Christ was mortal, he was God, and we don't know anything really from before that). So see below. The King Follett sermon doesn't give near enough details for all these conclusions. We have no idea what God's mortal or pre-mortal existence was like. We know nothing of prior generations, nor parallel. We simply know nothing. Maybe it's God's variation on the eternal plan of salvation that's always followed everywhere from eternity to eternity, or maybe it's God's very own creation for his children. We don't know. While I don't really have an issue with exploring possibilities, I would caution against "logic-ing" out things that haven't been revealed, and even more against getting emotionally or intellectually attached to them - such attachments often lead people astray. Being willing to accept that there are things we don't know and likely won't know in this life, and trusting God anyway, is part of building faith. Indeed, I think it's worth pondering on why God has revealed next to nothing outside of the basic requirements for following said plan of salvation. IMO, the hypotheticals you presented don't defeat true omnipotence, they just show a lack of understanding of the word. This seems reasonable and consistent with Church teachings.

I'm interested in understanding this, too. For the majority of my life, I filed as a single person with no dependents and so I know full well I'm funding you married folk and parents. Is there a "shacking up" status on the tax form that I missed? Please explain.

I was thinking of movies and television (perhaps old ones, I haven't paid attention to movies for decades) that make it seem like things in the middle ages were grand and glorious - at least for royalty / nobility. Agreed, but some seem to have a vested interest in seeing otherwise.

Hollywood has done a great job of making us think otherwise, hasn't it?

2 Nephi 29 This chapter is very popular with the rest of Christianity. v12-13: I expect that we'll have to wait until the Millennium (almost) to learn what was said to the lost tribes of Israel. (Seems clear to me from 3 Nephi 15:11 to 16:3 that some portion of the other tribes were still together around the time of the Lord's resurrection and that he visited them.) Of course, except for history and stories, it will teach the same things, I expect. 2 Nephi 30 Repent and believe in Christ. v10: Sure feels to me like the division is happening. v11+ Good stuff inbound. v14: Nice cockatrice: 2 Nephi 31 v7: Maybe the point of your trial or assignment, or of a commandment, is to help you be humble and demonstrate obedience. v9: Sometimes the point is to show the way. v10: Follow Christ. v11: Did I mention repent? v13: This is the way. v19-20: Don't underestimate your own faith. Keep going.

I have a fair number that I would be happy to offload! PM me, @Emmanuel Goldstein, and we'll arrange for a package.

That's fascinating. Does this link work. It's an http, rather than https, link, so perhaps your security settings won't load it. Or perhaps the UK has rejected my website... If so, I can always upload it here... It's a true work of art, really, spent hours and hours on it. </sarcasm>

In the end, all things will be known. In the meantime, I'm not about to second guess a Patriarch.

I don't think mine says anything like this.

Here's my rendition. Elsewhere in the thread they yammer on about translation and facts and other boring stuff.

75 years ago they may have been messy, but modern pens are only messy if the user is messy. (Well, unless you're referring to the occasional need to clean them as opposed to tossing the pen / refill into the trash.)

Fountain pen + journal. Everybody needs one!

I think I'm not saying things right. It's not that I don't believe in or teach the ideal. It is that I don't assume everyone in my class is wanting the ideal at that instant and so I don't speak as if they do. I might encourage them to pursue the ideal, but I don't assume they already want it. Because to someone struggling, speaking to them as if they weren't can just cause more pain or make them think they'll never be good enough, that there's nothing in the lesson for them, that they probably shouldn't bother with Church because the lessons are never "for them", or whatever. Instead, I focus on the Savior - if anyone will help them want the ideal, it's him, and he'll do it as they are ready. Whether you wish you had never existed, or whether you hope to one day live in an eternal family with your spouse and children in the kingdom of God, Christ will help you to overcome whatever you need to overcome.

2 Nephi 27 v3: Don't fear the wicked - their efforts against God's people will be fruitless. v6+: The footnotes (particularly to JS-H / Joseph Smith - History) show the fulfillment of these prophecies. v20: God can do his own work. When he assigns you to be the tool whereby he works, trust him and do your part, knowing he will do the rest. v21-22: It seems Joseph was not allowed to read the sealed portion of the plates. v23: Faith first, then the works of God in your life. See Ether 3:11-13. You can't hide from God. Those willing to receive will be blessed, those who persecute others and otherwise work iniquity will be cut off (like my arm that's falling asleep due to a sleeping kitten draped across it). 2 Nephi 28 I've never understood why some believe that God has stopped working through revelation and miracles. Why would He do things one way in scripture, but differently now? Don't try to justify sin in the least! Be humble. Repent. v19: Sometimes bad things are to encourage repentance. v21: Things can be temporally well and spiritually awful. v23: Satan is called "the accuser" - IMO, when he is before the throne of God, he'll be the first to accuse those he himself deceived, "see how unworthy they are, how readily they believed lies..." v28+: Welcome truth, even if it's painful. Remember there's more revelation to come! Don't complain when it does. v30+: Learn to hear God, study his word, trust him. v32: The Lord is merciful to all who repent and come to him. Do that!

A few years ago, I stopped making all the assumptions that a lifetime in the Church tends to instill: that everyone wants to live in the Celestial Kingdom, that everyone wants an eternal marriage, that everyone wants an eternal family, that everyone wants resurrection and immortality, etc. I also stopped assuming that every Sunday School Answer™ leads to every Sunday School Promise™ for everyone in observable time. In my teaching, I stopped presenting things as if all those assumptions were true and all those promises were as mechanically obtained as Church culture had always suggested. I think the assumptions and promises hindered the progress of those who struggled with them. These days, I testify of Christ - his love, of his desire and ability to help, and that life is better with him than without him even when life doesn't seem good.

?????

A study of D&C 88, especially the first 50 verses, may help.

2 Nephi 26 v8: It seems likenable ( ) to our day - we should follow these same instructions while waiting for the second coming of Christ. v24-28, 33: This is the argument for why we should not send any away, but try our best to encourage all to come unto Christ.

I just created next week's thread:

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. This week's schedule: Oct 2 2 Nephi 31 Monday Oct 3 Jacob 1 Tuesday Oct 4 Jacob 3 Wednesday Oct 5 Jacob 5 Thursday Oct 6 Jacob 5 Friday Oct 7 Enos 1 Saturday Oct 8 Omni 1 Sunday Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 25 Sep - 01 Oct 2023 (2 Nephi 10 - 2 Nephi 28) Thread Index

Confusing pronouns, the plague of our day... (Where "day" doesn't really mean a single 24-hour period...)

Ex-post-laughto reaction added.

The connection seemed obvious to me. Three time loser today. Clearly I need to quit trying to crack jokes.