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FWIW (direct quote from Church statement): "and activity regarded as morally unacceptable" could be anything - including unauthorized use of names for personal promotion, use of a "psychic" (if he did that, any sane person will think the guy's nuts), the accused sexual harassment (if it was done), or any number of other behaviors whether done as part of his work or not.

In essence, the article takes God out of it and turns it into something pretty mundane.

1 Nephi 19 v1-2: More hints at the lost 116 pages, also, an explanation of why the story has fewer details than we might want. v7: If a prophet of God thinks that something is of great worth and I can't see it, I should probably figure out how to see it rather than ignoring it or throwing it out. v10: @Jamie123, Zenock, Neum, and Zenos are not Book of Mormon prophets but were prophets to Israel (or perhaps the Jews). Presumably their prophecies were on the brass plates. We don't know when they prophesied. Zenos's prophecy indicates that the Lord had revealed the signs of Christ's death that would be experienced on "the isles of the sea" long enough before Lehi's time that the info was on the brass plates. It seems sort of obvious to me why some in the old world wouldn't want to recover Zenos' prophecies. v20: This and similar verses both about family and nation, and the depth of love and concern Nephi had for them make me think that the following scripture really is long fulfilled - modern man generally, myself included, doesn't seem to experience the depth of feeling being described: v23: Reading Isaiah should convince you to believe in Christ. Finding similarities between scripture and your own life is to your benefit and (v24) should bring you hope. Chapter 20 (Isaiah 48) v1-2: It's not enough to claim belief, you must obey God in truth. v3+, esp v5: God gives us good reason to believe in him. v10 (and answering @askandanswer's comment): It's not necessarily that God chose to afflict them - see the footnotes - rather, they were in affliction (enslaved by the Egyptians) and God chose them and led them out of captivity rather than leave them there. If you wish to remain unchosen, you will remain in captivity. Also: "How Firm a Foundation" v11: Clear reference to Satan who wanted God's glory all to himself. v18+: The Lord keeps his covenants and blesses his people. But the wicked will find no peace. (So don't be wicked. )

@askandanswer, we are starting a new thread every week, on Mondays - so starting with Chapter 19, comments belong in this thread: ETA: I'm creating each a few days before, so that they're already there for anyone who gets ahead on the reading - and before your Monday.

Just tripped over a clip from a BYU Devotional ("Remember Lot's Wife", Jan 2009) by E. Holland wherein he compares Lot's wife to Laman and Lemuel, speculating that perhaps she was longing for whatever "precious things" Sodom and Gomorrah had offered (my re-wording). Good summary: "In short, her attachment to the past outweighed her confidence in the future."

Personally, I think they were just cowards. Sometimes, they believed (or given no option but to believe) and so went along. The rest of the time, they were afraid to be wrong, so they stayed. Once they were far enough out, they had no safe way to get back. Sure, Laman wanted the birthright and Lemuel was clearly his ally, but mostly, he was a coward, I think. Now Klaw is threatening to slay me unless I bow to his wishes...

At the least, he would have to have seen the differences between his ships and whatever ships he'd encountered - perhaps he'd been as far as the Mediterranean with his Father. Some have theorized that they kept to the coasts as long as possible, perhaps even stopping for supplies. I imagine it was tedious - hence the revelry... (At the moment, Klaw is bored and threatening to revel. Or rebel. Or something. I'll have to go entertain him soon...) Yes. I think most folks believe they went East and landed on the west coast of South America.

But with a little effort, you can make shows that will offend everyone!

So, to summarize, Christians need to kill rats. Got it!

They present their argument well. They may well be right. Still makes me a little sad, though.

End of the week. 1 Nephi 18 v1-3 could be a pattern whereby to live life - going to the Lord often and him showing you bit by bit how to move forward. v9: v13-15: Are Laman and Lemuel that dense, or that stubborn? There's a lesson for you - don't be dense, and don't be stubborn. v16: Don't rail at God because some people are evil / wicked / dense / stubborn... v20: Don't wait until you're about to die before reconciling yourself with God. v23-25: Obey and prosper.

Careful, @Carborendum - you may end up in the river!

Yes. And I have found, especially in relation to the gospel, that there is inordinate power in the first step - as if this is what invokes God's grace to enable us to do far more than we might have on our own. A gift for merely trying moving forward with faith - loaves and fishes sort of thing.

Studying scripture; looking for and recognizing the influence of the Holy Ghost in my life; but by far, overcoming sin, temptation, and/or weakness with the help of the Lord (of course) - leaving some chunk of the "natural man" behind - seems to do more than anything else to help me better live the gospel. To me, this is the change of heart or conversion we speak of.

Sorry for being late - let myself get distracted this morning and that's always a bad idea... 1 Nephi 17 v4 - I think we have no perspective to appreciate this - I'm guessing it was around 2200 miles, a journey which would take 2 days by car (without stopping to sleep). In pioneer days, a wagon could travel 8 to 20 miles per day - that's 275 to 110 days... 8 years would be about 275 miles per year, 23 miles per month... Anywho, a long and slow journey. v9 - Instead of looking at the impossibility of the task, Nephi's reaction is to figure out how to get started. I should be so positive / faithful / willing. Nibley's Lehi in the Desert explains some of the probable reasons for not lighting fire, slow travel, etc. v21 - it can be difficult to learn that happiness is a choice and not a reaction nor something that happens to you. Apparently Laman and Lemuel were unwilling to learn this. v23+ - It's one thing to know what scripture records, it's another to really believe, and another still to really trust the Lord. v50-51 - lesson in faith. v55 - you can know and yet not have faith, or lose (or reject?) the knowledge awfully quickly... I'm not sure I agree, but, as near as I can tell, this promise is only ever extended to entire societies, not to individuals or even families - basically, to the covenant people as a whole.

1 Nephi 15 v3: do we assume we understand, or do we "inquire of the Lord"? Nephi understood and believed his father, yet still inquired of the Lord. Laman and Lemuel didn't understand and didn't inquire of the Lord; they disputed with each other. Lesson to be learned here. v8-11: it seems like Laman and Lemuel had given up on asking because previously they got no answers. How often do we do that, even if we don't give up entirely on the Lord, when instead, we should do as Nephi suggests and consider our own obedience, humility, and faith? I think this is where "real intent" comes in - we can't just ask wanting to know, we have to ask sincerely intending to act in harmony with the answer, no matter what it is. Or, we may need to change questions, and ask how to prepare for the answer... v13+: @Jamie123, in this section, Gentiles can mean both "non-Israel" - e.g. the people who colonized the Americas and brought Christianity to those already here - and it can mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Some uses in other places in scripture are limited to those who have not made covenants with God, but in this instance at least, it can mean either one - in essence, those who aren't seen as descended from Jacob/Israel.) v15: You don't have to have fallen away to rejoice. Don't take for granted the gift of knowing (of) God and your Redeemer. v25: How easy it would have been for Nephi to give up on his brothers, to say, "Figure it out for yourselves", or dismiss them in some other way. Instead, he used "all the energies of [his] soul" and "all the faculty" he possessed. This is another lesson for us. Chapter 16 v1-5: If the truth hurts, you can at least be glad that you're not past feeling, and choose to repent. v2: "...wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." This reminds me of 3 Nephi 11:3 where (SPOILER ALERT! ) the voice of God the Father has a similar effect even though they didn't understand what the voice said: ... and that reminds me of Deuteronomy 5:22-27 (part below): The 3 Nephi passage makes it a little easier to understand why the elders of Israel didn't want to hear the voice of God again, and yet, I think our desire should be that the voice of God is welcome to our ears and hearts... v18+: Is a good lesson on how to handle mistakes and problems / trials. (1) The murmuring doesn't help - it makes things worse; (2) Discourage negativity / encourage positivity; (3) Take what action you can; (4) Respect authority; (5) Be humble, ask God; (6) Repent, take correction from God; (7) Obey with faith. Failure to heed the Lord can lead to loss of his guidance. (8) Give thanks when the trial is over. v38: Apparently, it's easy to delude yourself even after having seen an angel. v39: It's easy to overlook this short mention that Laman and Lemuel also heard the voice of the Lord.

"Easily misunderstood" is probably more accurate. I suspect, but don't know, that the tendency to think "formal organization" first and "collection of believers" second or third is a modern one.

Just double checking: Is this what you meant? "church" does not have to mean "religious organisation" (or even "religious organization"). It can mean "bunch of people who believe in the same set of ideas". For reasons which have not been revealed, as far as I know, the Lord chose not to give more detail to the Nephites in general. Whether their prophets knew more, and how much more, we don't know. But yeah, all of the Book of Mormon talks as if there are only two options after mortality.

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5). Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year. I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes. This week's schedule: X Date Read Through Day of Week Sep 18 1 Nephi 20 Monday Sep 19 1 Nephi 22 Tuesday Sep 20 2 Nephi 2 Wednesday Sep 21 2 Nephi 3 Thursday Sep 22 2 Nephi 5 Friday Sep 23 2 Nephi 8 Saturday Sep 24 2 Nephi 9 Sunday Last week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Sep - 17 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 6 - 1 Nephi 18) Thread Index

Fair point. It's before - the tubes are to hold treats so Klaw has to figure out how to get them out - not much of a mental challenge here, even for a kitty, but it's more entertaining for him than just giving him dry food / treats.

Only one chapter today. I'm wondering about the logic used in the tool that generated our schedule... Still, I won't complain about an easy day... 1 Nephi 14 All we have to do to retain our freedom (as a nation or people) is follow Christ. Alas, it seems our country is doomed. Jamie, we believe that the "great and marvelous work" mentioned in v7 is the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (FYI.) v10: This creates lots of controversy because folks tend to think of "church" as "a formal organization". Consider that this may not mean that. For example, I've heard at least one evangelical preacher use "church" synonymously with "followers of Christ". I think there's argument for both interpretations, but mostly, I think that those who strive their best to follow Christ, whatever their flavor of Christianity, are not part of the church of the devil... (Note that striving to follow Christ and claiming to be Christian are not necessarily the same thing.) v13: can help clarify this (issue from v10), I think - who is gathering multitudes to fight against the Lamb of God? (Of course, we may need to be careful here not to be too literal - for example, a supposedly Christian church that fights against the things Jesus taught - in favor of things he never taught, but which they claim he did or at least would, is in fact fighting against the Lamb of God...) v14: "...upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord" - are these two different groups? Latter-day Saints consider anyone who is baptized (and really, children born to parents who are sealed in the temple) to be the covenant people of the Lord. So, is this verse being redundant, or is Nephi saying that there are the covenant people and there are those who are earnest followers of Christ but who have not made covenants? It's easy to see "saints" and say this means Latter-day Saints, but I'm not 100% convinced... And just for a bit of diversity, here is my rendering of the great and spacious treat puzzle tower... Klaw is sleeping (in his week-old new bed, for the first time - hooray), so you'll have to wait to learn how well received this tower is. I'm sure eventually I'll be telling you about the fall of this great and spacious treat puzzle tower...

“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” ― L.P. Hartley, The Go-Between Easy answers: Yes, (some?) native Americans - in all the Americas. Yes, Columbus. Yes, the Bible. Yes, the British (though perhaps all the places from which folks came to America). And, in the following passage from chapter 13, "church" is not necessarily a formal mortal organization, but rather, a description of those who follow Satan, knowingly or not: If this sounds like the Roman Catholic Church (or any other) at a certain point in its history, well, that's to the condemnation of those who were involved, but doesn't have to apply to the organization at any other point, nor to all its members... It might be important to remember that chapter 11 ended with seeing multitudes gathered to fight against the apostles of the Lamb, and predicting the destruction of any who do so. 1 Nephi 12 v10-11: Faith in Christ cleanses and saves. v17: Temptation can blind you. Hold to the rod, even when blinded. v15+: When Nephi sees the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites, the angel chooses this time to explain the earlier vision's symbolism of the river representing hell, and the mists of darkness representing temptation, the large and spacious building as pride, and the gulf between them and the tree as the justice of God. It made me think of President Nelson's "Peacemakers Needed" talk from last Conference. We know that it's the Nephites' choice to embrace wickedness - rebelliously - that led to this war and their destruction. I think the point is to teach us what comes of giving in to temptation, pride, and rebellion - and it scales down from a societal level to smaller groups to individuals - good things don't happen, not even to the "winners" - who are left to dwindle in unbelief, full of idleness and abominations. Just don't go there. Be humble. @Jamie123, FWIW, no matter how literal Nephi intended it, the descriptions he used (dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, committing abominations) sure seem to me to be accurate when describing those who embrace wickedness - not the ordinary decent person who succumbs to temptation now and then, but whole societies devoted to wickedness, as occasionally appear in the Book of Mormon. And I expect we could draw a parallel to the Old Testament stories where God sent Israel in with commands to kill everyone and everything... Chapter 13 v4-9: How to recognize Satan's influence: Behavior (persecuting followers of Christ) and Desires (riches, display of riches, harlots, praise of the world). See also v26-27. v11: The wrath of God is only ever poured out upon those who are ripe in iniquity. I have to assume there were some very wicked things going on in the Americas when the first Europeans arrived. (NOTE: It is often by the wicked that the wicked are slain... Also, chapter 12 ended with Nephi seeing generations of war among the Lamanites.) v13: Yes, I think captivity means something different to Nephi than what we might think. But at the least, they were seeking religious freedom, or freedom from oppression due to their religious beliefs... v16: Be humble, rely on God and He will bless you. v29: Never stop studying the word of God - you need to learn it all, so that you don't stumble and Satan doesn't have power over you because of your confusion. v33+: Stay true to Christ because the alternative is unpleasant. v37: peace & mountains vs chapter 12's depths of hell v39+: The point of all scripture is to convince all of the truth of the testimony of prophets and apostles - Jesus is the Christ. Translation of v40 for Jamie: This vision continues in tomorrow's reading.

Welcome to ThirdHour, @lauryfriese!

I've been reading the Book of Mormon for a long time - others catch a lot I don't, and I try to learn from them. Others understand the culture and history - Hugh Nibley (apologist) has a book called Lehi in the Desert which was fascinating - he explains things like the significance of "my father dwelt in a tent", or calling a valley firm, steadfast, and immovable when those are things we would think apply to mountains, not valleys.... But at the end of the day, I'm at a point where all I want from my scripture study is understanding and encouragement to become a better disciple of Christ - so that's usually what I look for... And yeah, lots and lots clearer than the OT makes it - my previous comments apply here. A Christian reading the OT is baffled at how the Jews don't see all the references to Christ, but I guess when your culture has long held other understandings of the same verses, you'd think the "new-comers" are the crazy ones... (Sort of like Latter-day Saint interpretations of many scriptures - others think we're nuts because they've got their own explanations that are long accepted.) Anywho - glad to help. Thanks for giving me a different approach to reading this time through - except for Sunday School, I've never read the BofM in a group. (ETA: Though our group appears to be slacking - perhaps we need to cry repentance already! )

1 Nephi 9 v5-6: represent a principle, IMO. The Lord often asks us to do things without always explaining why. Like Nephi, we should trust that the Lord has good reason, and obey regardless of understanding. Chapter 10 The wording in this chapter does make it seem as if plain understanding about Christ had been lost and Lehi was learning it anew - in essence, restoring the gospel, as many a prophet had to do over the ages. v4: I've heard some outside the Church make a big deal out of the precise timing (600 years), and why these people had that but the Jews didn't. My thoughts there: (1) I don't know who knew what back then. (2) Lehi and his party could not cause any problems in the areas where Christ would come - they couldn't afford the airfare or satellite phones, so it would do no harm for them to know, and might help them to have hope. But if the precise timing were known among the Jews, just think of the scheming and violence and chaos that would have ensued. It would have been far worse than it was. v8: The admonition to "make [the Lord's] paths straight" has always seemed strange to me. I wonder what cultural or linguistic information I'm lacking to make the meaning of this more clear. (I can make up stuff, but it's me making up stuff and I suspect there's something from the culture of the time that I'm lacking.) v17, 19 and Chapter 11+: You can choose to believe what prophets tell you and be content with the witness that their word is true, or you can also seek to know of yourself. The second is harder. Chapter 11 [Klaw is making adorable sleeping-stretching squeaky noises. ] v1: We must make an effort to gain spiritual knowledge - more than just asking for it. v4: (see also Ether 3:11) Belief, even pre-belief (aka complete trust in God and real intent to act according to what he reveals) is key to receiving knowledge from the Spirit. v4-6: (rephrased): Spirit: "Do you believe your father saw the tree?" Nephi: "Yes." Spirit: "You are blessed because you believe in the Son of God" ... that the tree is Christ doesn't get any clearer. v7: Once you have a witness of the Son of God, you are obligated to bear record of Him. v10: The Spirit doesn't just volunteer everything - Nephi has to have considered what he wants to know and has to ask for it in detail. v11-12 & 14: I wonder why the Spirit of the Lord leaves and an angel takes his place from here on. v33: I heard one person object that crucifixion wasn't a thing yet (as of 600 BC), so how could Nephi speak of it as if he were familiar with the idea? (1) v31 "and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me" - we're not getting the narrative, but the angel is there explaining it all; (2) this isn't 16-year-old Nephi writing these events, this is much-older Nephi writing about things he's known since he was 16, so of course he's going to be comfortable using the language to relate these ideas. (Not gonna try picking this chapter apart further - there's just so much here...)