NeuroTypical

Hi KirtlandSaint! I don't know much about the "nonBrighamite" LDS folks, but I consider y'all to be my cousins. Welcome to the forum.

It wasn't about nitpicking or feeling pissy. It was about disagreeing. After I posted, I saw this: I almost deleted my post, because I was on notice that it really didn't matter what I had to say. I decided to leave my post up, because there's more folks in this thread than just you and me.From where I'm standing: 1- The dad stopped the attack, and 911 got called, and everyone is trying to help the girl. 2- As Estradling mentioned, the people in posession of the facts will be deciding if the dad used an appropriate amount of force or not. If they decide to charge him, well, if Texas law is like CO law, he's got an affirmative defense. 3- It's tempting (and common) to 2nd guess what should have happened based on our incomplete grasp of the facts and preexisting worldviews about how things work. When deadly force has been used, and someone pipes in about how they should have done it differently, I try to find out if they know what the heck they're talking about or not. When they do, the responses tend to sound a lot like Anatess' post. When the only response is to get called pissy and nitpicking...

If I read the accounts in the news correctly, he did exactly everything you just said he should have done. (I'm not sure he called 911 himself though.) It sounds like you have a few gaps in your knowledge and experience about what sort of things happen when someone tries to "knock someone out" or restrain them. I'm thinking that humans using physical force on each other is a far, far more dangerous and injurious thing than you believe.Let me guess - you believe that in the space of 5-10 seconds, dads just automatically know exactly how to restrain other grown men? And they somehow how much force to apply with which part of themselves, to what part of someone else, to do exactly enough damage to "knock them out", but not kill them. Did you learn this in a dojo or gym somewhere? Please - tell me where you got this information. If I could figure out how to access and incorporate this information into myself, which you seem to believe is so common and available, then I could rest easy and let my conceal carry permit expire. Yeah, I'm not sure I disagree with you here. But the cost of keeping a segment of society locked up for life is high, and society tends to balk at such things. Which is what the father did. Are you under the impression somehow that the father did not stop the crime, or that the cops did not get called?

Am I reading you correctly? You would have preferred that the father, when walking in on a man engaged in the act of molesting his 4 yr old daughter, should have taken no action other than to call 911? Just want to make sure I understand you here too. Two questions: Are you advocating life sentences for convicted pedophiles? Are you advocating that private citizens not be allowed to take action to end crimes currently occuring?

I agree that the two stories are very obviously different. Just out of curiosity, what charge would you feel fits this case? Charges are supposed to be leveled against people who we think are guilty of said charge. What charge is he guilty of in your opinion? Here is how the law is written in Colorado. (I haven't looked up Texas law, but I assume it's similar.): Good thoughts folks.

So, on topic, we seem all pretty united that the murderer in the original link is a murderer and needs to be convicted as a murderer. What about the father in Houston Texas who beat a man to death after discovering him allegedly molesting his 4 yr old daughter? They're saying he probably won't even be arrested, much less charged with anything. My link doesn't mention it, but apparently the physical evidence backs up the father's story.

This thread needs more jokes. I'll start: ---------- One Sunday, the bishop was called into the High Priest Group meeting, where he was given the sad news that one of the HP's had just died. He looked up and down the rows of HP's, and asked "which one?"

My wife was told that if she got pregnant again, it would most likely not go to term, and there were good odds that it would kill her too. Kind of an easy choice there.

Yeah, I've had "I'm coming to your house" said to me a few times too.

Could you explain a little about what "done" means to you?

It isn't ok to murder, especially when someone did nothing. Could you point to the person saying otherwise? Heh. Here's some free advice: Understand that the word "fair" often doesn't have much to do with human-based systems of justice. We sometimes stink at administering justice. Here is a partial list of things humans are horrible at:- Figuring out what happened - Figuring out who is to blame and who is blameless, and in what measures - Accounting for mitigating and aggravating circumstances - Determining intent - Reading the content of someone's character and heart and soul - Agreeing that a punishment should be applied - Agreeing on what an appropriate punishment is - Agreeing to apply an appropriate punishment - Actually applying the agreed on appropriate punishment So if we're fortunate enough to live in a country where good people actually try their best to administer justice, we're still not all that great at it. You can ask cops how often they see bad people go free. You can ask jury members how often they believe they were able to decide the right thing. You can ask corrections officers how often prison makes someone better, and how often it makes them worse. Personally, if I didn't believe in God's ability to mete out perfect justice and perfect mercy, I'd be a much unhappier person here on earth. Because I often don't see either happening here. Yes, humans usually struggle with the commandment to love their neighbor, when looking at neighbors who happen to have done horrible things. But as someone who has dealt with the issue, and struggled to love more than one such person, I wholeheartedly endorse giving it a try. God doesn't want us to be 'less sad' when one of His children dies instead of another.(I say this, as my family is preparing against the possibility that the guy we helped put behind bars may come looking for some payback when he gets out this year.)

There are many such stories going around. At the blackest of '08, a full 10% of the homes in my neighborhood were in foreclosure. Congrats on hitting it big in precious metals! I did a little of that myself (enough to buy a new front door with the profit). I dunno. The difference between some precious metals skyrocketing and others not, tell me it isn't a purely inflationary thing. It tells me some folks (and institutions and governments) are flocking to safety, and it worries me about what that says about the dollar. Of course stocks are more volatile and prone to fail than metals - that's the nature of the game. Stocks historically have greater return on investment. The last 3-4 years have been an exception to a rule that has been true for 75 years.I remember my parents getting all excited in the late '70's about silver. They scrimped and saved and invested. Then the stagflation ended and we had the golden Reagan years, and silver plummeted. Well, not that rare: Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I've been quoting Pres. Hinckley's 1996 address through the 1-2 minor recessions and the major recession we've had since he gave it. Stay the heck out of debt, don't buy things you can't afford, store and prepare against hard times. I'm with them 100% too.Isn't it interesting that you and I can be so in alignment with who we listen to, and yet come to such different conclusions about the amount of melodrama we should experience as a result?

I don't have a problem with employers seeking out job applicants of good moral character. I wish all employers did this everywhere. But yeah, a public school blacklist database is pretty much the last place I'd want to look for an indication of a student's character. I mean, maybe they do it differently in Australia. But here in the US, I can see various ways that being labeled a 'bully' by the public school system would be a badge of honor, and an indication of good character, depending on how they got on the list.

My meager portfolio has gone up in value 36.3% since Oct '07, the beginning of the slide. Factoring in my home value, and it's still in positive territory. I think one reason so many people are out of luck, is they followed the worst advice possible from doomsayers - buy high and sell low. So somewhere in '08 they thought the world was going to end, and they took huge losses and moved their investments into safer things. Then they did not experience the once-every-40-years explosion in the market that has occurred since the "black Monday" of March '09. My stuff has more than doubled since then: 115.6%. The people who got scared and dumped everything into insured CD's have made maybe 2%, and are still underwater overall.I'm not the smartest guy in the world. But I have been paying attention for the last two decades. And I notice a recurring event in economics. Every time the dow drops a few percentage points or there's bad global news, folks like lds2 pour out of the woodwork and jump into the spotlight to prophecy doom. Back in '08, it was all about hyperinflation. Today it's about "The End of the (Financial) World As We've Known It" and how "the swirl of the toilet water is rapidly speeding up for an ultimate flush of our monetary system". One thing that is true: If you are the sort of person who begins to make 'buy high and sell low' choices whenever the lds2's of the world are out starting melodramatic threads and shouting into their megaphones, then you never should have been in the stock market in the first place. You should have started with CD's or just stuck with a bank account. I'm continuing to do what I've always done - invest a portion of each paycheck in risky investments (aka stocks and bonds). Take advantage of company match for 401k. Participate in my company's stock purchase plan. I stay out of debt and prepare against adversity, but I'm also saving for retirement and putting kids through college. I took flak in 2008-09 for this strategy by the doomsayers of those years, but here I am having gained all the short-term losses back and more.

Yeah, I was willing to accept that just on the principle of the thing, until I found out that the New England English accent is actually closer to what the Brits were speaking in 1776, than what the Brits speak now.Required viewing for anyone who wants to laugh uproriously while getting a brief rundown of the english language: The History of English in 10 Minutes

Our ward assigns two HP families and two elder families per week. If all 4 show up, things take an hour. If one family shows it takes 4 hours. Usually we get two families. More often than not, the elders don't show up. I announce in church, send email and voice mail at the beginning of the week and on Fri evening. Elders maybe show up maybe half of the time maybe. I have seen building cleanup work wonderfully, when the same one or two families do it week after week. That's a great option for when a family is receiving bishops storehouse assistance IMO (I've never been a bishop, so take my opinion for what its worth.)

I'm teaching my kids to spell. Every day before practice, we start out with a good healthy vent about how horrible the english language is, and why it's totally normal and appropriate to hate everything about it. "Hmmm - we need a word to indicate when we have a sufficient amount of something. And because it's english, we should make sure it makes the "f" sound, but has no "f" in it. Instead, we'll make "gh" say "f"! Yeah! I love the word 'enough'! Don't even get me started on c's and k's.

Sing with me:

Agreed. Michael Medved has been observing for some time now, that the foundational divide between left and right today, is wider and deeper than what divided North and South right before the civil war. We see similar divides throughout history. The "solutions" tend to not be that appealing. You identified silencing one party - that's one way history has handled such things. Other ways include:- Civil war (settled the slavery question by bloodily defeating the people in favor of it) - Refusing to deal with issues until something breaks (watching this happen in Europe right now) - Becoming weak and getting taken over by rival powers (Every empire the world has ever produced has done this, except our current one) - Coups, revolution, rioting, civil unrest, etc (Arab spring is the latest iteration) - Dirty tricks (vote fraud, lying, bad politics, threats of violence, the list is endless) I guess there's an alternative - work together with each other in the spirit of charity and brotherhood, endure difficulties that our divisiveness has brought upon us, be smart enough to stop doing dumb things - stuff like that. I'm not incredibly hopeful. I think just defeating the other guy at the ballot box is a more plausible and possible solution.

Hi richards, Mormons aren't big on predestination. We prefer the term "foreordination". The basic notion being that God picked some of us to do something in the preexistence (Joseph Smith was foreordained to usher in the last dispensation for example). However, we retain our agency, and just because God picked us for this or that job, doesn't guarantee we'll do it. If Joseph had shirked his duty, God would have found someone else. I came within a few credit hours of a minor in philosophy, and I'm no good at it either. The debate between free will and determinism started long before either of us came on the scene, and it'll be debated long after we're gone. It's certainly a debate larger than just the LDS faith. If you can resolve things for everyone, I personally will paypal you a dollar.

I'm not sure what issue you're having with www .lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/prophets_john.htm . The link works fine for me. But if you want to argue with mormons about who is right, Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board may be more to your liking. Right now, I hear you saying things like: But we also hear you arguing with us and telling us our answers aren't sufficient for you and your new interpretations. Not the right setting for that. The folks who fund this site aren't interested in having that happen here.This site is set up for folks who want to understand what mormons believe, and why we believe it. It is not a debate board. It's not a place where you tell us where we're off base or not in harmony with how other people interpret the bible. If you don't find our reasons persuasive, that's fine. You don't get to use this forum to try to show us where we're wrong.

Come on folks. There's no reason to doubt cobbettj's claim that his new church is not the source of his latest question. Anyone can spend 30 seconds on google and come up with this very old, very tired response to the truth claims of the LDS church. Cobbettj, I will say this. Wherever you got this list of scriptures, their source isn't a very good source of valid beefs against my faith. Another 30 seconds on google, and I found two answers: Didn't Christ Say there would be no more prophets after John? How can there be modern prophets? Isn't that a nonbiblical heresy? There were to be no more prophets after Christ.

:) That's a fair response. I encourage you to not ignore the old testament as you go forward with your new faith. Oh, I don't know if that's automatically so true. Here are a handful of LDS resources that talk about it:Bible Dictionary: Bible Study helps: Guide to the Scriptures: Bible Study Helps: Guide to the scriptures: Pentateuch Study Helps: Bible Dictionary: Pentateuch The Law after Christ By Stephen E. Robinson - Ensign Additionally, I remember being taught this in Sunday school the last time we were looking at the Bible. (It is true that we had an outstanding Jewish teacher, so I can't be sure if he was reading from the instructor's manual or just being outstanding.) Nah, I should have been typing 'non-LDS Christians' the whole time, but I figured my meaning would be clear enough. I earned your response though. I may be projecting my own frustrations a bit, I just have lost count of the times when someone who claims to believe and follow the Bible, comes to me with a criticism of my faith that is based on ignorance of what that Bible teaches. I hope you have a better experience at the church you're attending. If you feel the need to criticize your former faith, learn about the pentecost and the last supper before you criticize our sacrament. Learn about the Abrahamic covenant, and how the Bible says you are a part of it, before you laugh at our patriarchical blessings. Learn about how you can shout hosannas to the Lord, before you snicker at our temple dedications. Learn everything about what Christ promised His disciples, before you have a beef with us for thinking we can be gods. And learn what you believe and why you believe it, before you start trying to poke holes in what I believe.

FYI: "The Law" and "The Prophets" are two sets of books that make up the TaNakH (canonized Hebrew scripture).The Law (Torah): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy The Prophets (Nebiim): Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, The Twelve, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel I have to shake my head when a Christian has to come to a bunch of Mormons to learn about what's in his own Bible. I take it as a sad commentary on the state of protestant scholarship and teaching. Don't you guys ever read your old testament any more?

All I have to say about that, is welcome to the club! ADHD isn't near as crazy as it used to be. Too many sucessful, brilliant, funny people have it. If that's your diagnosis, then roll with it. It's hardly like getting diagnosed with cancer.As for your questions about how God dealt with people 3000 years ago, I'd just suggest you study secular history about the type of people who lived 3000 years ago. Those people were the real crazy people. Nobody thought about things in terms of human dignity, or rights, or equality. Those are all relatively new ideas. The notion of freeing a slave (with his wife no less), was actually a step up for them. The claim is that God is all-powerful and all-good. But He has the disadvantage of having to deal with us humans in terms we can accept.