Misshalfway

I think I might like the intimacy of a small ward as well. Our ward and stake is so big. We are over 700 now, as are all the wards in our stake. Just waiting for the new Stake center to be completed and then we will split. But I tell you, it is easy to feel invisable and even easier to disappear. I love our bish, though! He is really amazing! And he really cares about each one.

"There is no greater bond than the love between the man and the woman." That is why these thing hurt so very badly and are so very hard to overcome....even with all the logic and lists of how we 'should' feel. The Lord is patient. I think this situation could benefit a great deal from lots and lots of tender patience.

How did you handle all of it with your oldest? And your younger daughter sounds really pure hearted and sensitive.

Is she wanting to talk about it and find out? Does she believe in God or is she wondering about that too? She trusted you will her feelings. I think that is sooo big!! You are a really gentle dad. My parents probably would have over-reacted which would have been the worst thing. Sounds like you have a good relationship with her. You sound so humble and your reactions sound so patient. You sound like a good papa!

Wow! I think you are your wife handled it just right. She sounds like she is growing up! It must be a little scary to see your children start to think for themselves. I haven't gotten there yet. So, when I go thru this with my kids, Tom, I'll come to you for advise! :)

Of course you do! You have a heart as big as Texas!!:)

There is one part of the analogy that I think is missing. Someone comes and says they will pay the ticket. (the savior) But he does so ONLY if we promise to keep his commandments. He requires that commitment and does so thru covenant. It is like he says, I will pay the fine and keep you out of jail, but you must promise not to speed again. I still didn't earn it. But, it is not a completely free and clear gift that requires nothing of me.

So lost, do you feel like your questions have been adequately answered?

Ahhh, well. I forget sometimes about those situations. While my husband was in the bishopric, the first pres sent out a letter explaining the issue. I guess I assumed that was for the church world-wide. Perhaps it was sent to the ones who needed to hear it. Anyway, I still think that it is personal issue of communication between a daughter and a mother. I am sure if they tried to talk....and perhaps pray together, then they could come to some understanding without involving a third party. While it is good to seek counsel, I think it is important for these two beautiful women to own that responsibility.

I think it is difficult to determine the truth about what has happened in Texas. I agree with Willow on this one.

OK LM, lay it on me. What am I doing wrong?

But even after all the faith and change and devotion....and even on our best days we are all tempted from the adversary or satan to make sinful choices. And so we make mistakes. We sin. Even though we know it isn't right. What do we do then? Because of cleanliness is disrupted and only clean things can enter into the presence of God. We must repent and make it right again....and Christ thru his grace, cleanses us again. This is a life long process of continual course corrections. We won't stop being tempted just because we believe in Christ. In fact, the temptations may increase. And because all of us will make mistakes throughout the course of our lives, the atonement is always there. That is a tremendous message of hope! The key is choosing it. Many know what is right, and don't choose it. And they will be judged against their knowledge. IF my son steals, I know he knows better, and I hold him to that standard. God does too.

I don't think it is that we don't understand the concept. I understand very clearly what you are saying and the differences between your position and our position. I think we read the same scriptures and understand them differently. Where you say baptism is not necessary, we feel it is essential. Where you say faith in the only requirement to obtain grace, we feel is an incomplete description of what is required of the sincere disciple of Christ. I am smiling as you ask me to read and feel that will clear everything up. The truth is, we read the same passage and understand it very differently. The problem we have with a singular appeal to the bible for clarification, is this very problem. Too many of us.....and even the general Christian world as you illustrated in an earlier post, read that book and interpret it in all sorts of interesting ways. I find so much confusion in the world. That is why we (LDS) rely on personal revelation. We read and study and then pray for Father's guidance on how and what to believe about what we read. Just for clarification, it was me that characterized faith as a work. I was trying to illustrate the relationship between faith and works and didn't explain that well. For simplicity, I do not think faith is a work. I do think it is a choice that comes from within man. In that sense.....it feels like a work to me because faith without works is dead. Anyway....forget I said it. On to Heavenly Mother. This is a sacred topic. And very difficult to discuss here. She is not Mary. Mary is a human just like the rest of us. It is not a fundamental doctrine and only makes sense if you understand the more basic stuff. How Mary got pregnant is God's business. He hasn't shared with us how that happened. It is important to understand that he was human because of his mother, and deity because of his father. We believe that God created man. We believe that Jesus was created in the flesh just like we were. But we believe that Jesus was with the father in the pre-earth life and that we were there too. We believe there was a war in heaven and Jesus emerged as the one who would offer that great sacrifice to help us all return to the father. We are all spirit children of Father. Jesus was the first born. I know that is different than what you believe. Jesus is the Son of the Almighty. He is our savior. He died and paid for our sins. He is absolutely the creator of this earth. He did so under the direction of the father. We don't pray to Jesus. We pray to God the Father thru Jesus who is our mediator with him. With regards to judgement, I can't accept your descriptions. And this is why. First, it is confusing. Second it doesn't address personal responsibility. It doesn't meet the demands of justice. It doesn't explain to me all of the scriptures....only some of them. It doesn't explain the punishments God has inflicted on his children. It doesn't explain the numerous states of apostacy that the people drifted into and God's displeasure with that. David is one example. And the Israelites are another. It doesn't explain what happens to a soul in personal apostacy. It doesn't make sense in my personal life as I struggle with my own human-ness and appeal to the grace of God to help me change. I see a constant need in my own life.....even after profound conversion....to become more like the Savior. I can't do it on my own. It is his very purpose to provide Grace. Both the Father and the Son obey eternal law. If they didn't, they would cease to be God. Why do you think there had to be a sacrifice made in the first place? It was to satisfy the eternal law. Sin MUST be paid for one way or the other. Christ paid for our sins.....but if we don't obey, we will have to pay for our own sins. We have to follow the same law or suffer the consequences. When we are obedient, he can change our nature. That is why faith is necessary in bringing the atoning power. It is obedience that is happening there. But that obedience is not confined to faith alone. There are other steps....and actions. Like repentance for example. Faith is important. But repentance is such an important piece. Being sorry. Making restitution with all we have wronged. These are essential components. Christ's sacrifice is vital and all powerful....but without our obedience, the blessings of that sacrifice can't take effect. He can't cleanse the rebellious...in any stage of rebelliousness. And we all will face father in heaven to give a report of our lives. We will be judged according to our knowledge and stewardship and choices. No one is exempt from the judgement. I think that believing that judgement is only for non-believers is an incomplete: too merciful for some, and too merciless for others.

Call me crazy, but I don't think going to the bishop is really the most productive answer..... Bishops are wonderful individuals, but they have lots on their plates. Much of what we traditionally think is a bishops duty has been delegated to the Elder's Q P and the HPGL and even beyond that to the HT as directed by letters from the first presidency because with all the concerns of all the members, we are literally wearing our bishops out. I think that this is a conversation for you and your parents. I would involve your father...if that is possible....before a leader. I would work towards more open communication. Perhaps if she doesn't seem to be listening, then you could write her a kind and honest letter outlining your feelings and actions and decisions and then ask her to respect your decision. I think that going outside to a third party or a group could potentially be embarrassing and I don't think it will help your relationship. And it is ok, if it takes time to iron the problem out. It may not be resolved, but if you are true to the spirit and yourself, all will be fine. I think you honor your parents better by taking your concerns directly to them and by trying to work together to negotiate understanding. You sound very articulate and very in tune with yourself. I think that is a great position. Getting your PB is a very personal decision. And if you don't feel you are ready....then that is to be respected. I know many who didn't get it until later. It sounds to me like your mother has some idea in her head ... can't be sure what that is. Perhaps you could ask her lots of questions and follow-up questions to try and understand her feelings. Not to fight or argue......just to understand what might be driving her. She may need to hear herself say it before she can wake up to how it may be affecting you.

I think you missed my little joke. Whoosh! Right over your head. :::rolling eyes:::: I do agree with the rest of your statement though.

BTW, do you mind sharing exactly what denomination you are from? I think it would help. Some of your perspectives are different than other Christians I have met. Some say that Baptism is a choice. Some say it isn't really that important and some that it is essential. Today is the first day I have ever heard that it is necessary but not essential for baptism. I would like to understand better. :)

I remember feeling in awe of that when I was studying the D&C and reading Jesus call them his friends. So profound to me.

I thought I would add these scriptures just for fun. :) Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. We believe that God does show himself to man ( and that some of these experiences are recorded in scripture), but that God's glory is so powerful that in order to do so safely, man must be changed. We call that process transfiguration. We believe that all of God's witnesses, must have something to witness in order to be the strongest kind of witness for the Lord. This is God's pattern. He will reveal himself and command these prophets to testify and give commands and leadership to the people. We believe that pattern existed in the new testament as can be seen as the Lord came to visit with the twelve to show them the prints in his hands and feet and on the road as well. And then commanding them to testify of what they had seen. This same pattern occurs today. It did with Joseph Smith. He saw God face to face and spoke with him as plainly as a friend would speak to a friend. He also saw the resurrected Lord on the right side of the Father. Joseph was called my his name and Jesus was introduced to him. EDIT: One more NT scripture.... why stephen was stoned. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus estanding on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Yes. He was sinless. That was the whole point, wasn't it. A sinless sacrifice for the whole of man. He didn't get baptised because he needed cleansing. He did it as an example for all of us. Now, let me tell you what confuses me. You perform baptism and say that it is important for one to become sanctified but that it is not important for salvation. Is there some line of scripture that leads you to believe this because every scripture I read about baptism leads me to believe that it is essential if not completely fundamental to salvation. I am not sure what logic calls for baptism to be essential because it is a commandment, but not essential to salvation. God doesn't seem like a being of confusion to me, and this explanation feels very confusing. If Christ did it I should too. He wants me to do it because it will make me clean and teach me to follow him. I must be clean to enter the kingdom of God. Entering the kingdom of God is salvation. Please help me understand why baptism wouldn't help one become fit for the kingdom? I also noticed that you said it is our faith that saves us. Isn't that a work.....a choice that man makes to open his heart or desire the Lord or see his own sinfulness and desire cleansing and forgiveness? If we can do nothing for ourselves, then how is it that faith saves? My understanding of your other posts was that Jesus saves. I believe that faith is essential to salvation AND is a work. Not essential to earn it.....just essential to qualify for it -- as is the rest of all obedience.

You are gonna find that LDS people will disagree with you on your descriptions of why Jesus was baptized. We believe that all sinners need baptism. It is an outward ordinance that is symbolic of the cleansing and conversion of the heart and spirit and that everyone must be baptized. It was so important for the Lord to fulfill all righteousness. Therefore how much more important is it for us who are sinners to follow his example. One must be born of the water and of the spirit.

Yes absolutely! I think there are some that glide by on the testimonies of others. But it is not what sincere discipleship is about. My daughter is a good example. For a while she just wanted to get baptised cuz her grammie was gonna give her an American Girl doll and a new dress. We had long talks about what true conversion was. It was a beautiful time for both of us as she is starting to understand God and other spiritual things.

If all you see it as is an argument, then I can see your point. It is more than that for believers. There is spiritual confirmations that help one to look at the creations of the earth and the revelations of science with new eyes.

Well, thanks. But I still apologize for my wild tangents! :) Sometimes I just can't help myself.

I don't really suppose that it matters. I would rather have someone who is not of our faith go into a ministry understanding accurately than someone who spreads misunderstanding and falsehood. The truth is a much better tool that hopefully will bring religious groups to mutual respect. We have had far too much religious persecution and hostile divisions thru-out our world. I would much rather have someone understand honestly and then disagree, than someone who bullheadedly believes lies and propagates them.

Now your talking! This is the fun stuff..... the stuff we most likely won't know until the other side. You are not the first to ask the question. Many LDS scholars and prophets have asked the Lord. Sadly, the answers get us into lots of trouble with our critics. But, from my vantage point the ideas thus far seem pretty fascinating.